NPR Labs: 10% Injection Solves HD Reception Problems, But...

[TheBigA]

I'm not the one to answer the question of how SPECIFICALLY to target younger listeners. But in targeting them, elements of personality, originality, creativity, and LOCALISM most be included for longterm success. THAT is my point.

And that's a one-size-fits-all solution. Which, by the way, is being done at thousands of radio stations right now. And with varying degrees of success.

NONE of the above is "one-size-fits-all". To the contrary, my philosophy is that EVERY SIZE IS UNIQUE! Every person, and every station is UNIQUE. Every air talent IS UNIQUE! Let that shine through, and NOBODY WILL EVER BE ABLE TO DUPLICATE WHAT YOU'VE GOT!

Then it won't work in an advertiser-supported medium. Because advertisers aren't interested in reaching individuals, but groups. What you want might work for subscription-based media. But not if the goal is to get a 10 share.

 

[mgpt6]

Will NPR Labs do test of 3db or 6 db increases of digital injection levels. 10 db is too much. I agree with Peter , why dont more stations investigate FMXtra.

 

[Mike Walker]

Every group is made up of individuals. Radio is an intimate medium. Good personalities have a "composite listener" in mind, often a real person, whom they talk to...and in doing so, they create the illusion of talking JUST TO ONE PERSON for the thousands who are listening. It's personality radio 101. Paul Harvey is a towering example if it's use, and he (at the age of 996) reaches tens of millions per day.

By the way, if "creativity, energy, localism, and originality" aren't relevant, then radio is doomed. Perhaps YOU aren't relevant. Allowing each individual personality to be himself, or herself, and let THEIR INDIVIDUAL PERSONALITY shine through is "one size fits all"? NO TWO FREAKIN' PEOPLE ON EARTH ARE THE SAME, and given the freedom to be themselves, NO TWO WILL SOUND THE SAME! That is the antithesis of "one size fits all". Every SIZE (station) would be completely unique to his or her own market. "One size fits all" indeed! Point to the station that (today) sounds like the show of mine I used as an illustration, or to the personality who sounds like ME! That should be easy, if my formula is "one size fits all". Go on, SHOW ME WHO SOUNDS LIKE ME, OR THE SHOW I'VE DONE! No, I am not the point. My point is that NOBODY SOUNDS LIKE ANYBODY ELSE when EVERYONE IS THEMSELF, and EVERY STATION IS TAILORED TO IT'S UNIQUE MARKET! FREAKIN' DUH! Did you actually attand radio school anywhere? Study under anyone successful? Become successful as a personality or programmer yourself?

I've pointed to work of mine that illustrates my point. Point to WORK OF YOUR OWN that proves I'm wrong (or the personality/show that sounds like me!)

 

[Mike Walker]

mgpt6 I'd love to see investigation into 3db and 6db! There's got to be a compromise in between (what we have now, and 10db) that accomplishes most of what is needed, while introducing little additional interference.

As for FMExtra, I think REQUIRING the inclusion of FMExtra in future digital radios (HD Radios) would be all the incentive that would be needed to cause an explosion of adoption of this format by small stations. Remember when stations used to get together and lobby for things that were in their (common) best interest? I mean SMALL stations, not giant corporations? There's still something to that "buddy system", and still strength in numbers...even in numbers of small operators!

 

[Len14043]

If a 10% injection solves the reception problems (for FM), that reinforces my view that digital is superior to analog as a delivery method. I think the digital power should be raised to the point to where the digital reception is dependable inside a typical building within the 60 db analog contour, whether the increase is 3, 6 or 10 db. For AM, let IBOC die a well deserved death.

 

[Chuck]

If a 10% injection solves the reception problems (for FM), that reinforces my view that digital is superior to analog as a delivery method. I think the digital power should be raised to the point to where the digital reception is dependable inside a typical building within the 60 db analog contour, whether the increase is 3, 6 or 10 db. For AM, let IBOC die a well deserved death.

It is probably true that a 10% HD power level would improve HD's building penetration and also increase its range in a car. It is also likely that some of the latest generation HD radios like the Sony XDR-F1HD can deal with the interference problems if the power level were increased. My dilemma is what about the other millions of analog radios that are incapable of the kind of performance that the Sony provides? Do you just throw them out? If most people keep a car for 7-8 years, it is going to be a long time before those radios are replaced. You’ll have to be prepared to deal with serious interference problems for at least that long, probably a lot longer before you get decent receiver saturation. Most people keep boom-boxes and clock radios for very long periods of time. I don’t know any specifics on the average life of a radio, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find it was about 15 years, maybe more. I have a Sony AM-FM clock radio that I bought in 1972. It still works fine. In fact, I have lots of good working radios that are a lot older than that, but that’s probably not the norm. I see no reason to throw them out, and I suspect that most ordinary consumers feel that way too.

Assuming it will take 10 year to get enough radios in the hands of consumers, and if the illustration on the cover of the latest Radio-World is any indication, then increasing the FM HD power by a factor of 10 is a formula for disaster. It is one that will last for quite some time. How many stations would be able to hang on with reduced coverage for the next ten years?

I guess if you really want to "thin the herd" this would be one way to do it.

It should be noted that the Radio World illustration shows only two DFW stations and their overlap. Radio-Locator says there are 39 FM stations receivable in Dallas. I'd hazard a guess that the real number is closer to 50, if you count the rim-shots. If all of them lit up with 10% HD, I'll bet the interference contour maps would look like a bowl of spaghetti, with tons of interfering contours. I get verclempft just thinking about it.

Then there is the AM question. For most purposes (NYC excepted), the sooner it goes away, the better.

I do think Mike is right that FMExtra should be mandated on all future digital radios. While you are programming the big microprocessor in these things, you might as well add DRM, and a USB port to allow future upgrades and new codecs to be downloaded. Of course, they will never agree to do this, but it would be a good step in the right direction.

 

[Len14043]

It is probably true that a 10% HD power level would improve HD's building penetration and also increase its range in a car. It is also likely that some of the latest generation HD radios like the Sony XDR-F1HD can deal with the interference problems if the power level were increased. My dilemma is what about the other millions of analog radios that are incapable of the kind of performance that the Sony provides? Do you just throw them out? If most people keep a car for 7-8 years, it is going to be a long time before those radios are replaced. You’ll have to be prepared to deal with serious interference problems for at least that long, probably a lot longer before you get decent receiver saturation. Most people keep boom-boxes and clock radios for very long periods of time. I don’t know any specifics on the average life of a radio, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find it was about 15 years, maybe more. I have a Sony AM-FM clock radio that I bought in 1972. It still works fine. In fact, I have lots of good working radios that are a lot older than that, but that’s probably not the norm. I see no reason to throw them out, and I suspect that most ordinary consumers feel that way too.

Assuming it will take 10 year to get enough radios in the hands of consumers, and if the illustration on the cover of the latest Radio-World is any indication, then increasing the FM HD power by a factor of 10 is a formula for disaster. It is one that will last for quite some time. How many stations would be able to hang on with reduced coverage for the next ten years?

I guess if you really want to "thin the herd" this would be one way to do it.

It should be noted that the Radio World illustration shows only two DFW stations and their overlap. Radio-Locator says there are 39 FM stations receivable in Dallas. I'd hazard a guess that the real number is closer to 50, if you count the rim-shots. If all of them lit up with 10% HD, I'll bet the interference contour maps would look like a bowl of spaghetti, with tons of interfering contours. I get verclempft just thinking about it.

Then there is the AM question. For most purposes (NYC excepted), the sooner it goes away, the better.

I do think Mike is right that FMExtra should be mandated on all future digital radios. While you are programming the big microprocessor in these things, you might as well add DRM, and a USB port to allow future upgrades and new codecs to be downloaded. Of course, they will never agree to do this, but it would be a good step in the right direction.

I agree that the 10db power increase will cause some interference problems and therein lies the dilemma: If the digital power remains at 1%, building penetration will not be adequate to put a good signal into suburban homes, hindering the launch of the system. OTOH, a 10% digital signal will improve the digital performance at the expense of the analog. The question then becomes if sacrificing analog is worth vastly improved performance in the future with only 10% of the power expended. IMHO, I believe it is. But if you believe there is no need to transition into digital, then the cost is not worth it. Many posters on this board maintain that analog is fine and there is not need for a digital system. However, after owning an HD radio for over a year, I have become spoiled at the lack of multipath distortion when driving between hills. I readily notice it when tuning to a non-HD station. Some here may say that I'm repeating the talking points of the pro-IBOC crowd, but my opposition to the AM system should vindicate me. I call it as I see it. Incorporating FMextra into radios may also be a good idea, but I have little knowledge of that system.

 

[KB1OKL]

Then there is the AM question. For most purposes (NYC excepted), the sooner it goes away, the better.

Chuck wondering why you feel NYC should be excepted, do you realize how powerful the digital sidebands of the 50KW NY IBOC stations are outside of NYC? WFAN, WOR and others to a lesser extent clobber us nightly down here in MA for example. They completely obliterate both adjacents with hash.

 

[Chuck]

Then there is the AM question. For most purposes (NYC excepted), the sooner it goes away, the better.

Chuck wondering why you feel NYC should be excepted, do you realize how powerful the digital sidebands of the 50KW NY IBOC stations are outside of NYC? WFAN, WOR and others to a lesser extent clobber us nightly down here in MA for example. They completely obliterate both adjacents with hash.

Perhaps I should have put a after that line especially for Lino and my friend RF. It was meant tongue-in-cheek. Truthfully, I'd love to have a beer and pizza with these guys. It would be an interesting conversation. Their passion for radio is similar to mine and probably yours. You and I would have fun too. It is just that my particular perspective is different than theirs. The interest in the medium is similar.

That said, New York City has had its own set of AM, FM & TV reception problem for as long as I can remember. There are not that many places in the world that have transmitters located above a man made canyon. It is quite unlike where you and I live. Until the advent of cable TV, reliable off air TV reception was a challenge. So was FM. As you know, AM has problems with steel, concrete and man made interference generating devices like fluorescent lights, computers, TV's, dimmers, etc. The population density of NYC makes all these problems more challenging than I experience in East Texas, or you have in suburban Massachusetts.

Perhaps for folks in the Big Apple, HD represents an improvement. The problem is what it does for people who live around, but not in the City. Maybe it is an issue, maybe it is not. I suspect that "Joe Six-Pack" doesn't know the difference, and just wrote off those radio stations he can no longer receive clearly. That is radio's loss.

 

[KB1OKL]

Perhaps for folks in the Big Apple, HD represents an improvement. The problem is what it does for people who live around, but not in the City. Maybe it is an issue, maybe it is not. I suspect that "Joe Six-Pack" doesn't know the difference, and just wrote off those radio stations he can no longer receive clearly. That is radio's loss.

Yeah I get you, and I bet most people just think, man AM sounds worse than I thought or I wonder where this damn interference is coming from?

 

[Chuck]

Yeah I get you, and I bet most people just think, man AM sounds worse than I thought or I wonder where this damn interference is coming from?

I suspect that most listeners are clueless. It is more likely that they just blow it off and never question where the interference is coming from. There are too many alternative forms of distraction and entertainment. They really aren’t going to lose much sleep over why they can no longer pick up a particular radio station. They either find a different station, play a CD or just switch on the ipod and party on.

 

[Seattleradiodude]

As for FMExtra, I think REQUIRING the inclusion of FMExtra in future digital radios (HD Radios) would be all the incentive that would be needed to cause an explosion of adoption of this format by small stations. Remember when stations used to get together and lobby for things that were in their (common) best interest? I mean SMALL stations, not giant corporations? There's still something to that "buddy system", and still strength in numbers...even in numbers of small operators!

Your right on!! FMeXtra needs to be mandated in ALL digital radio's. OR, a manufacture (i.e. Sony, Cambridge) creates a "Digital Radio". That takes the trademarked "HD" out of the name.

hell, let ibiquity collect royalties for their chips, if the smaller clusters and operators install FMeXtra, it will quickly be a more listened to system than HD.

Once larger operators see they can achieve the same effect without royalties, hmmm.... fill in the blanks ;D

REMEMBER (as mike said) BUDDY SYSTEM!

 

[Carmine5]

Yeah I get you, and I bet most people just think, man AM sounds worse than I thought or I wonder where this damn interference is coming from?

I suspect that most listeners are clueless. It is more likely that they just blow it off and never question where the interference is coming from. There are too many alternative forms of distraction and entertainment. They really aren’t going to lose much sleep over why they can no longer pick up a particular radio station. They either find a different station, play a CD or just switch on the ipod and party on.

To coincide with this argument, I thought what Robert Gonset, an engineer in the Fallbrook, CA area, said is interesting:

This from his newsletter:

"Not even STAs or experimental authorizations for higher powered operation appear to be warranted
at this time because analog listeners hit by interference will have no idea where the problem is coming from, and NPR indicates that plenty of interference will occur. (HD Radio is essentially digital noise that does not leave an identifiable calling card.)"

With regard to adding more coverage to HD Radio signals, other techniques, besides increasing power, are available according to the Radio World article and should be looked at first.

http://www.bext.com/_CGC/2008/cgc848.htm

C5

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Well, now - let's all take out our August 1st RW. You don't even have to go through the inconvenience of opening the publication. Check out the graphic above the fold, page 1, showing a projected loss of analog listenership to KTYS Dallas from a second-adjacent IBOC station of a mere 574,000 in the event of the 10db digital hike. And was this submitted by some "anti-HD naysayer?" Nope. It's from a ranking member of the NRSC.

A fine point - there is no more KTYS. It is now KPMZ = Platinum 96.7. Only time will tell if the format change from country to smooth oldies works. If it does, I expect a lot of copycats around the country.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Boy, talk about something that's pretty damning! With this latest KPMZ-KEGL analisis and NPR's analisis it becomes pretty darn clear that even Joe Average listener will be experiencing a lot of harmful interference if the big guys get their -10db HD signal. Let's hope the FCC tells the big corporate guys that -10 is TOO much!

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

It seems to me that on each station that would want to increase their HD signal that a study should be done to prove they will not cause harmful interference to others. Any other change of a facility pretty much requires a study to be done. Why should HD be allowed to easily throw the hash on the air without proving, on paper, that it won't interfere? Could the solution, after a study was completed on a station by station basis, for unequal HD signals to be allowed. (as in less of an HD signal from KEGL headed downward to protect an adjacent like KPMZ) Aren't the upper and lower signals a mirrored signal time-shifted to provide redundancy? Let's say KEGL could somehow go -10db for the higher signal. Maybe the current signal would be all that would be proper for the lower signal. Wouldn't that still be an overall improvement in coverage, especially for STATIONARY in-building listenership? (which seems to be the biggest problem for HD)

 

[Savage]

If experience with HD-AM is any guide, the earnest pronouncement, "well, there may be 'isolated instances of increased interference,' but we'll deal with those on a case-by-case basis" is an utter lie. Case of adjacent-channel HD-AM interference have been so completely ignored by the FCC Enforcement Bureau that inquiries of Commission staffers about such cases have been met with blank denial at industry conferences and gatherings. The FCC staff simply lies to the public, claiming "there have been NO complaints."

Look for the pattern of lying by the FCC to continue, until a new Administration in Washington tosses some of the corrupt losers out.

 

[TheBigA]

Look for the pattern of lying by the FCC to continue, until a new Administration in Washington tosses some of the corrupt losers out.

Do you really expect that a new administration is really going to focus any of its time on firing long time civil servants at an agency that is less than a pimple on the butt of the bureaucracy? Really?

I have way less confidence in any potential administration, regardless of party. Because there has been way more corruption that has been going on far longer at way more important places, and no one seems to be doing a damned thing about it.

 

[Chuck]

I have way less confidence in any potential administration, regardless of party. Because there has been way more corruption that has been going on far longer at way more important places, and no one seems to be doing a damned thing about it.

That's the scary part, isn't it? This is just "radio" and in the big scheme of things, not all that important. It makes you wonder what they are up to on the REALLY IMPORTANT stuff. :'(

Actually, I think we are beginning to find out....

 

[Carmine5]

If experience with HD-AM is any guide, the earnest pronouncement, "well, there may be 'isolated instances of increased interference,' but we'll deal with those on a case-by-case basis" is an utter lie. Case of adjacent-channel HD-AM interference have been so completely ignored by the FCC Enforcement Bureau that inquiries of Commission staffers about such cases have been met with blank denial at industry conferences and gatherings. The FCC staff simply lies to the public, claiming "there have been NO complaints."

Look for the pattern of lying by the FCC to continue, until a new Administration in Washington tosses some of the corrupt losers out.

The satrad merger has, I feel, really exposed the hypocrisy and cravenness of the FCC. Obviously, when enough money is involved, the agency will move heaven and earth to accommodate.

I can see this 10 db power increase breezing through the Commission with very little trouble.

C5