NPR Labs: 10% Injection Solves HD Reception Problems, But...

[TheBigA]

Obviously, when enough money is involved, the agency will move heaven and earth to accommodate.

Are you saying that Sirius has more money than the NAB? I don't think so.

 

[Carmine5]

Obviously, when enough money is involved, the agency will move heaven and earth to accommodate.

Are you saying that Sirius has more money than the NAB? I don't think so.

I'm not talking about who has the most money here, OK? I'm talking about transactions in general in which a great deal of money involved.

It can be the satrad merger, involving over 500 million dollars, or the Clear Channel buyout which involved billions.

C5

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

We as engineers this time need to start raising HELL about this -10 thing and let it be heard that there MUST be a case-by-case analisis of interference before any increase is allowed. If I wanted to move a station from point A to point B I'd have to prove, on paper, I'm not going to crap on my neighbors. HD should be NO DIFFERENT. If the big boys want to have their noisemakers louder then they should have to employ people with a brain to prove it really won't create interference station by station. Let them PAY to prove it.

 

[TheBigA]

Obviously, when enough money is involved, the agency will move heaven and earth to accommodate.

Are you saying that Sirius has more money than the NAB? I don't think so.

I'm not talking about who has the most money here, OK? I'm talking about transactions in general in which a great deal of money involved.

It can be the satrad merger, involving over 500 million dollars, or the Clear Channel buyout which involved billions.

I think you're being selective here.

And it's not as though the Commission gets points, like the lawyers.

 

[TheBigA]

If the big boys want to have their noisemakers louder

It's not just "the big boys."

 

[Savage]

Carmine, I'm not sure, but you could be right that the 10db FM digital level "will breeze through the Commission" (although this proposition has far more opposition than anything else associated with HD thus far.)

I still predict that -10db will not be widely adopted, even if it gets the FCC green light. It will cost too much for any stations other than big-group owned major-market signals, introduce too much self-interference and will spark adjacent-channel interference litigation. This ain't AM. There are far bigger bucks at stake for first and second-adjacent operators. This time the aggrieved parties won't sit on the sidelines because of potential $200K legal bills. They'll go for it because the economic injuries will be a multiple of those documentable in AM cases.

HD-FM boosters have drawn a line in the sand, essentially saying, "HD is toast if we don't get the 10db digital." (See RW 8/1.) So guess what that means? By definition, HD is toast, because the most likely outcome is more like an increase to 3 to 6db in most cases, not enough to fix the coverage problems. In fact there is a body of opinion saying 10db wouldn't even make a dramatic difference.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

In fact there is a body of opinion saying 10db wouldn't even make a dramatic difference.

Well that is a no brainer! Signal fluctuations on FM are on the order of several decades as you reach the edge of coverage. On analog FM, a 10x power increase wouldn't help, it might delay by milliseconds the onset of static. And the signal might come back in a few milliseconds sooner. Given the time it takes for HD lock - a 10x power increase will be meaningless in car receivers. It might brute force a few more feet of coverage inside buildings, but the vast majority of people are streaming in offices - to the great annoyance of IT departments who see bandwidth going away.

 

[Carmine5]

Carmine, I'm not sure, but you could be right that the 10db FM digital level "will breeze through the Commission" (although this proposition has far more opposition than anything else associated with HD thus far.)

I still predict that -10db will not be widely adopted, even if it gets the FCC green light. It will cost too much for any stations other than big-group owned major-market signals, introduce too much self-interference and will spark adjacent-channel interference litigation. This ain't AM. There are far bigger bucks at stake for first and second-adjacent operators. This time the aggrieved parties won't sit on the sidelines because of potential $200K legal bills. They'll go for it because the economic injuries will be a multiple of those documentable in AM cases.

HD-FM boosters have drawn a line in the sand, essentially saying, "HD is toast if we don't get the 10db digital." (See RW 8/1.) So guess what that means? By definition, HD is toast, because the most likely outcome is more like an increase to 3 to 6db in most cases, not enough to fix the coverage problems. In fact there is a body of opinion saying 10db wouldn't even make a dramatic difference.

Right. And I'm not saying that all stations will want to or will be able to take HD power levels up to the full 10 db or anywhere in between. Probably only a minority will.

However, it is clear that the FCC (at least the Commission under Kevin Martin) seems more than eager to sweep aside technical or legal considerations or field studies (like the one from NPR) in granting something if not doing so negatively impacts big media business.

Whether it's the FCC or the NAB, but it seems like small market broadcasters are continually getting the short end of the antenna.

C5

 

[TheBigA]

Whether it's the FCC or the NAB, but it seems like small market broadcasters are continually getting the short end of the antenna.

I had a chance to meet the newly elected President of the NAB. He is the owner of a small market radio station in Kentucky. He would never encourage policies that would hurt his owned radio station.

Small market radio stations can install IBOC. They can inject 10%. They can pretty much do anything big radio stations can do. In fact, based on the sales data I see, they probably can afford it better.

 

[pqgeorge]

Small market radio stations can install IBOC. They can inject 10%. They can pretty much do anything big radio stations can do. In fact, based on the sales data I see, they probably can afford it better.

SO, how will the LPFM's and the college stations be able afford IBOC, never mind 10% injection? At $100,000 a pop, be real.

 

[TheBigA]

SO, how will the LPFM's and the college stations be able afford IBOC, never mind 10% injection? At $100,000 a pop, be real.

My response was about "small market radio stations." Many college stations have already installed IBOC.

I wonder if LPFM stations even have enough room to do IBOC.

 

[Chuck]

SO, how will the LPFM's and the college stations be able afford IBOC, never mind 10% injection? At $100,000 a pop, be real.

My response was about "small market radio stations." Many college stations have already installed IBOC.

I wonder if LPFM stations even have enough room to do IBOC.

It would certainly be a waste at 1% injection level; a one-watt or less digital signal would be a joke. Many LPFM stations are well below the 100-watt maximum allowed for the service. The same can be said for translators. While then can be 250 watts, many are far less. You'd have to be out of your mind to install HD on one, unless some minimum level was established, and the cost of licensing was greatly lowered. I don’t know what the power threshold would be, but my gut feeling is it would take a minimum 10 watts digital to work at all. Even then, I suspect that would probably render very poor results. At some point, there truly is a diminishing return.