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Numbers

Unlogical.........hmmmm.........wouldn't that be illogical as in Mr. Spock?........I digress.....Steuben County is the largest county in Elmira-Corning.......its still Arbitron with the same methodology; I put forth this idea as one possibility. How long have you worked in NEPA and reviewed the books there luvcoors??

Kevin
 
Great discussion Kevin and Luvcoors, unfortunately you're both right. Arbitron's methodology has been erred since the start as is being seen with the people meters.

Why do trends look so different than the actual book? Because Arbitron has to weigh the information to represent the population and they only do that with the actual books. In it's simplest form, let's look at it this way. Let's say upon initial distribution, each diary is to represent 1000 people, but only half the diaries are returned from a given area. When this happens, each diary then represents 2,000 people in that area. In another area too many diaries are returned so the number goes down. Say you get twice as much response from this area then each diary represents only 500 people. Take into account that Arbitron bases population representation on counties and this can hurt or help the stations with spotty coverage. (Luzerne is a BIG county geographically). If diaries are mainly distributed in an area where a station has a weak signal, more than likely that station will get a weak rating. If the diary return is weak for a certain demographic, and most of the diaries for that sample are distributed in an area where a station has a weak signal, by weighing, that station's ratings will be dismal.
Yes, luvcoors, a station needs to have a good product, but if the 'sample" can't receive it, they will go to their second and even third choice. Which ever is easier to receive.
Forgive me if I got long winded.
 
No offense meant...but I've been in radio for almost 16 years, 2/3 of that in programming. I know plenty about diary placemtn, return, weighting, etc. Sorry...but the tone of your post came across like you felt I'm some board-op that doesn't know anything.

Monroe was chopped up recently to make things more fair in this market...since only 3 stations here reach clearly into that market with any strength. It's Arbitron BS since that area receives signals from 4 different markets...and it should be it's own market. But, Arbitron bitches about not being able to have someone buy ratings there...which is BS and the faulty service continues. They should be better serving the stations that are already paying huge (overpriced) costs for their crappy service.

If they can't get the basic diary system done...figuring out how to reach cell phone only households, finding other ways to recruit a sufficent 18-34 pool of listeners, finding ways to get people to participate using the internet, and about 100 other basics...how can anyone ever expect them to get the PPM right.

Back on track...your point is valid...but the same thing can be said for any station if one of their hot zips all of a sudden beomces non-existent. But you can't claim that when a station continues to yo-yo like 107 has.

Again...I go back to the facts. Diary placement and return was consistent with each of the last 5 books. I still need to finish reviewing Max since I'm a bit of a nit...but I can't find any giant differences in zips from book to book over the last few.

Bottom line...last chance to plug the holes before the crew walks the plank at 107!
 
luvcoors said:
But the 107 thing...it's very real, when they sunk down...It's a clear indication the audience didn't like their product for the last 12 weeks and it's now a clear indicator that "business as usual cause no one else can compete" is clearly out of the water. They've clearly done nothing to sustain their image...their talent isn't entertaining or compelling and they're gonna end up missing budget for the rest of the year since it's very clear thru their performance...107 is no longer the rock leader in NEPA. Plain and simple!

I once asked a very well respected 107 jock if 107 plays anything besides "Slowride" by Foghat, like 'Fool for The City", one of Foghat's biggest hits, and they shrugged their shoulders, and said "No, you'll never hear anything but "Slowride" because that's all we have. I being shocked, just walked away in astonishment.

But the fact remains clear: The same Rock Blocks from the early 80's are the SAME ones being used by 107 today. Laziness is to blame, and resting on one's laurels instead of trying to improve and always make the current product BETTER. 107 has had this coming for 20+ years (in my humble opinion).

A listener can practically "bet their life" if a rock block of AC/DC comes on the songs played will be: Hells Bells, You Shook Me All Night Long, & Back In Black because after all, AC/DC didn't have ANY OTHER HITS besides those 3!!! If OZZY is played, everyone and their brother knows it will be 1 of 2 songs" Crazy Train or Mr. Crowley

107 has had their time in the sun and had this coming for a long time. I never worked for them and hold no bitterness for TS besides the fact of a lack of creativity, & lack of commitment to improve the product forever going unnoticed, for those reasons, I hope TS sinks.
 
Sorry if I came off condescending Luvcoors it wasn't meant that way. Funny you should mention Arbitron "serving" their buyers, in a way the 107 yo-yo does just that. If they sell the 4 book average they look great. This same yo yo effect happened many years ago to 107 and I was always confused why their numbers would jump in Winter and Summer books, but fall in the Spring and Fall "buyer" books. They kept everything afloat selling 4 book averages then. Same flawed methodology at work....
 
Buyers are smarter now...they need to be spending money on stations that are dominating, according to the most recent set of numbers.
In some cases, yes...they still play the 2 or 4 book avg. game for their clients that still haven't broke from their old school thinking.
 
You don't have to buy the big stations.

It's demographics, not 12+.

It's also location. If you have a business in, for example, Scranton... you don't have to buy the monster signal, unless you hope to have someone from McAdoo drive an hour to get to your front door.
 
"Buyers are smarter now"...I love an anecdotal pre-condition that comes to one's keyboard as the premise by which others are expected to buy the argument.

I'm reading all this back and forth and a "I'm in radio almost 16 years" and "hot zips" and on and on. You people are talking about all this like you're experts and this is important. Radio is neither an art NOR a science. It's about luck or gut instinct and that's it.

Arbitron is a fool's game but the only game in town. Every rating, every station, none of it is accurate. When a station's book is high, that's not real. And when it's low, that's not real either. I posit that every station everywhere is consistently somewhere between their best and worst book, always.

Someone mentioned laziness and resting on one's laurels? I don't know what goes on at 107 firsthand but my experience has been that program directors aren't so much lazy or content to rest on laurels as they are fearful and connected at the hip to the low bid consultant and they see "middle of the road, take no risks, doesn't test well" as the end all and be all upon which to pin their hopes. My guess is that 107 isn't lazy or resting so much on their laurels as they are chickenshit to step outside the very safe and narrow boundaries dictated by "out of town jaspers" and likely flawed music tests.

And speaking of 107, what's with "107 has had this coming for 20+ years"? I guess they were on the air for a year or so and then they've had it coming since then? [EDIT]Ann Landers (or was it Dear Abby) used to say "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it."


[EDIT-inflammatory]
 
I guess last year when WEZX was #1 12+ it must of been a fluke.
 
"Must HAVE", not "must of", maybe you could make a case for the contraction and "must've" would sound like "must of" but "must of" has no meaning.

And it was a fluke. 107, #1, 12+? Every diary had to have gone to a 107 listener for that to happen.
 
I didn't mean to be condescending but when people do not identify themselves by name I assume they are minimum wage board ops plain and simple......I had forgotten about the Monroe split, by the way. Speaking of experience, I've been in this crazy business for 33 years (WATS, Sayre, 1976 being first); worked at my first real station in 1979 (95x in Syracuse) and got hooked on the programming and ratings thing there. Although now I am focused on Engineering I have much programming, on-air, and ownership experience (I have owned 6 full power commercial stations). A point to be considered is that the vast majority of advertising agencies both regional and national use 4 book averages (some use 2 book averages). I believe about 66% of all buys are based on 25-54 (either adults or male or female). 12 plus means little.
 
The Sigon said:
"Buyers are smarter now"...I love an anecdotal pre-condition that comes to one's keyboard as the premise by which others are expected to buy the argument.

I'm reading all this back and forth and a "I'm in radio almost 16 years" and "hot zips" and on and on. You people are talking about all this like you're experts and this is important. Radio is neither an art NOR a science. It's about luck or gut instinct and that's it.

Arbitron is a fool's game but the only game in town. Every rating, every station, none of it is accurate. When a station's book is high, that's not real. And when it's low, that's not real either. I posit that every station everywhere is consistently somewhere between their best and worst book, always.

Someone mentioned laziness and resting on one's laurels? I don't know what goes on at 107 firsthand but my experience has been that program directors aren't so much lazy or content to rest on laurels as they are fearful and connected at the hip to the low bid consultant and they see "middle of the road, take no risks, doesn't test well" as the end all and be all upon which to pin their hopes. My guess is that 107 isn't lazy or resting so much on their laurels as they are chickenshit to step outside the very safe and narrow boundaries dictated by "out of town jaspers" and likely flawed music tests.

And speaking of 107, what's with "107 has had this coming for 20+ years"? I guess they were on the air for a year or so and then they've had it coming since then? [EDIT]Ann Landers (or was it Dear Abby) used to say "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it."


[EDIT-inflammatory]

You're quite funny to me...considering thru your 20 posts here you freely admit that everything you know is "from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend" about what actually goes on within the radio business. I can say I'm an expert since I'm in the decision making chair...big difference! You're right about one thing, it's not a art or a science. It's 80% gut and 20% instinct in my book. A programmer needs to be smart and recognize the audience's tastes and program from there.

PD's that aren't creative, don't understand strategy, and don't have street smarts are also the same guys that can do a good music log, bow down to salespeople that bring stupid proposals/ideas for their clients and end up junking up their station since they're afraid to stand up for the pride in their product, and can't manage people are the ones that most of the time end up with consultants. They're good workers, but can't stand up for themselves and really should be an APD. But due to the wonderful times our business has endured in the past 10-12 years...companies don't pay for the excellent creative people that have a long track record of success except for a few cases, they decide to settle for the 2nd best person and hope that person develops while surrounding them with people to make the overall strategy for them while teaching them nothing.

I've never had an outside consultant, but I've used a person or 2 within my company to bounce ideas off of...since I know I've got things to learn or find myself encountering a new issue that I've never dealt with before (blowing up a morning show and starting over, etc.).

When a station consistently grows it's numbers book to book over a year or so, takes a little tumble, then bounces back up and grows more, then goes down a little and comes back up...it's real. A station that goes from a 7, to a high 4, then back to a mid 6, then down to just under a 4....that's not Arbitron messing up, it's proof positive that the product has major flaws and can't make long term adjustments to maintain it's high level of success. Someone else referenced Magic falling to below a 7 in one book...but failed to mention the other 20 before it that had the station between a high 7 and a 10 share...the one pothole below 7 is a very obvious Arbitron "flaw" or bad book...and not indicative of a PD not doing their job.

Bottom line IMO...107 was able to get by until 2005ish with the same stale BS and not growing with their audience...the same that other classic rock station have done across the country and they're also dying a slow, painful death as well. The ones that have found new ways to freshen their product thru talent, adjusting music, and fantastic marketing and promotions have survived and in some cases...might be stronger than ever!

In this case...I really believe your view is off base...and please refrain from the need to be edited language.
 
Nokmo True said:
"Must HAVE", not "must of", maybe you could make a case for the contraction and "must've" would sound like "must of" but "must of" has no meaning.

And it was a fluke. 107, #1, 12+? Every diary had to have gone to a 107 listener for that to happen.

Sorry, 4 years of quality education at Meyers.
 
Are you sure it's not because people are listening to more satellite radio?

Seriously though, the 3.9 this book is just as much of a fluke as the 8.1 last summer. The "real" number is no doubt somewhere between the two.

Not to be a TS-apologist, but with the discussion moving towards "what's wrong with Arbitron" lets not even consider the distribution of the diaries by zip code and consider their distribution by person. Who do you think is more likely to sit around filling out a ratings diary? The average 107 listener sitting by the fire, drinking some beers, and listening to ACDC? The average 18-year-old in BHT's target demo driving around with her friends on Friday night blasting Chris Brown? Or the average Magic listener sitting in their office all day and the 70-year-old sitting home with WILK on all day?

Not to take anything away from the great discussion we've got going on here but I think the problems with Arbitron are a lot more fundamental than "more diaries went out to areas where one station's signal is a little stronger."

And by the way, RK, 107 also has "Fool for the City" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You"...you just have to convince the jocks during one of their 8 "request hours" a week to play them for you. ;)
 
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