NYC Digital TV Line-Up

[Gregg]

About a year ago, I posted the line up of digital channels available in NYC. Since then the dial has changed a bit, with two new stations available (17 and 64) and a few others rearranged.

2.1 WCBS-TV...CBS...DT 33

4.1 WNBC...NBC...DT 28
4.2 Non-Stop NY (Local News, Weather, Features)
4.4 Universal Sports (mostly pre-Olympic competitions) (No 4.3 channel)

5.2 WNYW...Fox...DT 44
5.1 same (Not sure why 5.2 comes before 5.1 on my channel line up)

7.1 WABC-TV...ABC...DT 7
7.2 Liv Well...health programs and infomercials
7.3 Accu-Weather with local WABC meteorologist inserts

9.1 WWOR...My Network...DT 38
9.2 same (Co-owned Fox 5 used to show up here and WWOR used to show up on 5.2, but no more.)

11.1 WPIX...CW...DT 11
11.2 Estrella...Spanish language programming (Something called LaTV, a youthful half Spanish, half English channel similar to MUN2 used to be on 11.3 but that's gone.)

13.1 Kids Thirteen...PBS Kids Shows
13.2 V Me...Public Television in Spanish
13.3 WNET...PBS...DT 13 (Not sure why the principal programming is on 13.3?)
13.4 blank screen
13.5 blank screen

17.1 WEBR...DT 17 blank screen (I believe this will be a religion station in the future because they test with some religion shows.)
17.2 blank screen
17.4 Korean Radio (no video... and no 17.3)

25.1 WNYE...PBS and city programs...DT 24
25.2 City Drive Live (Continuous 5 second shots from numerous traffic cameras around NYC)

31.1 WPXN...Ion...DT 31
31.2 qubo...non-commercial and PBS children's shows
31.3 Ion Live...health, home repair and travel shows plus infomercials (31.4 Worship, a channel of religious music videos, is gone.)

41.1 WXTV...Univision...DT 40
41.2 WFUT

47.1 WNJU...Telemundo...DT 36

50.1 WNJN...New Jersey Network and PBS...DT 51
50.2 NJN 2 (Alternate PBS and NJN programs)
50.3 NJN Audio Service (reading for the blind)

64.1 WASA...Continuous infomercials...DT 25
64.2 Continuous slides of NYC landmarks. (Station is licensed to Port Jervis, NY, about 70 miles away, but I think it broadcasts from the Empire State Building.)

68.1 WFUT...Telefutura...DT 30
68.2 WXTV

These are the channels I get living on the Upper West Side. According to the list from www.tvfool.com, I'm missing quite a few low power broadcasters who don't transmit from the ESB or other midtown location. It's odd that I get WNJN from Montclair but not WFME from nearby West Orange NJ. Others say they have problems with WABC, WPIX and WNET since those stations remain on VHF channels. I do notice WABC drops out sometimes, even though I haven't touched the antenna. But I guess I live close enough to the ESB that these VHF channels aren't usually problems for me.


Gregg
[email protected]

 

[fybush]

Thanks for the list, Gregg...

You're seeing "5.2" showing up before "5.1" because of a quirk in the DTV tuner you're using. The WWOR transmitter (RF channel 38) carries 9.1 in HD and 5.2 in SD, while the WNYW transmitter (RF channel 44) carries 5.1 in HD and 9.2 in SD. Most tuners sort the virtual channels in order, so they'd sort 5.1, 5.2, 9.1, 9.2...but some don't, and yours apparently is one that doesn't. (This may explain why Thirteen's main channel of programming is showing up on 13.3, too.)

 

[MarcB]

31.1 WPXN...Ion...DT 31
31.2 qubo...non-commercial and PBS children's shows
31.3 Ion Live...health, home repair and travel shows plus infomercials (31.4 Worship, a channel of religious music videos, is gone.)

ION's relationship with The Worship Network ended on January 31, 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worship_Network

 

[badjef]

Thanks for the list, Gregg...

You're seeing "5.2" showing up before "5.1" because of a quirk in the DTV tuner you're using. The WWOR transmitter (RF channel 38) carries 9.1 in HD and 5.2 in SD, while the WNYW transmitter (RF channel 44) carries 5.1 in HD and 9.2 in SD. Most tuners sort the virtual channels in order, so they'd sort 5.1, 5.2, 9.1, 9.2...but some don't, and yours apparently is one that doesn't. (This may explain why Thirteen's main channel of programming is showing up on 13.3, too.)

So... Is Fox still using the .2 for retransmitting of the other's signal or not? If "Gregg" was seeing it accurately, was that just that day he did the scan for us?

When I did it, the SD on .2 was crappy on both as opposed to the same info on the main .1 of the other. I did my test with the 7" Prism purchased from Walgreen's in Pt. Pleasant, NJ.

Confused?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[w9wi]

So... Is Fox still using the .2 for retransmitting of the other's signal or not? If "Gregg" was seeing it accurately, was that just that day he did the scan for us?

When I did it, the SD on .2 was crappy on both as opposed to the same info on the main .1 of the other. I did my test with the 7" Prism purchased from Walgreen's in Pt. Pleasant, NJ.

What Scott is getting at is...

Fox owns two digital transmitters on the Empire State Building. One operates on the frequency formerly known as "channel 38"; the other on the frequency formerly known as "channel 44".

The transmitter on channel 38 broadcasts 9.1 WWOR My and 5.2 WNYW Fox. The FCC has assigned this transmitter the call letters WWOR-TV.

The transmitter on channel 44 broadcasts 5.1 WNYW Fox and 9.2 WWOR My. The FCC has assigned this transmitter the call letters WNYW.

 

[badjef]

So... Is Fox still using the .2 for retransmitting of the other's signal or not? If "Gregg" was seeing it accurately, was that just that day he did the scan for us?

When I did it, the SD on .2 was crappy on both as opposed to the same info on the main .1 of the other. I did my test with the 7" Prism purchased from Walgreen's in Pt. Pleasant, NJ.

What Scott is getting at is...

Fox owns two digital transmitters on the Empire State Building. One operates on the frequency formerly known as "channel 38"; the other on the frequency formerly known as "channel 44".

The transmitter on channel 38 broadcasts 9.1 WWOR My and 5.2 WNYW Fox. The FCC has assigned this transmitter the call letters WWOR-TV.

The transmitter on channel 44 broadcasts 5.1 WNYW Fox and 9.2 WWOR My. The FCC has assigned this transmitter the call letters WNYW.

I know what Scott was refering to, I wanted a clarification that the cross-transmission still existed.

From what I read from Greg, WNYW was on 5.2.

For a long time WNYW had been on 9.2 - since September 11th, according to Scott from another post or his NERW.

I thought they started doing that so that the OTA viewers and the cable systems that weren't picking up direct feeds from the stations could still watch both while the engineers were working on the other transmitting equipment.
Remember that up until about 5 years ago, ATSC tuners were scarce at best and expensive.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[luperm]

The cross transmission still exists.

 

[Gregg]

I think what's happening is my $48 Magnovox digital converter is trying to make sense of these two signals for me.

WWOR DT 38 is sending me a My 9 signal it calls 9.1 and a Fox 5 signal it calls 5.2.

WNYW DT 44 is sending me a Fox 5 signal it calls 5.1 and a My 9 signal it calls 9.2.

Converters are not just to convert digital signals to analog for older TVs... they're also supposed to make sense of digital channels we dumb TV viewers used to know by their analog dial positions. So my converter is grouping the Fox 5 signals together and the My 9 signals together, and telling me they're 5.1, 5.2, 9.1 and 9.2. But in its confusion, according to Scott Fybush, the converter is switching around the order, showing me 5.2 before 5.1. Scott also believes this is why I'm getting WNET's main programming on 13.3, not 13.1.

And w9wi thinks that Fox 5 is still piggybacking on the WWOR DT 38 signal and My 9 is still piggybacking on the WNYW DT 44 signal. It's just that they now call all the Fox signals five-point-something and the My signals nine-point-something. I'm still getting them from different transmitters on the Empire State Building.

And that makes sense since it's possible that some viewers might get DT 44 better than DT 38 or visa versa. That way they can choose which version of Fox 5 and My 9 they prefer. Univision still does that for WXTV and Telefutura WFUT. But my converter is still reading it as 41.1 and 68.2 for Univision, 41.2 and 68.1 for Telefutura. That broadcasting company hasn't regrouped the channel assignments as Fox 5/My 9 did.




Gregg
[email protected]

 

[badjef]

I think what's happening is my $48 Magnovox digital converter is trying to make sense of these two signals for me.

WWOR DT 38 is sending me a My 9 signal it calls 9.1 and a Fox 5 signal it calls 5.2.

WNYW DT 44 is sending me a Fox 5 signal it calls 5.1 and a My 9 signal it calls 9.2.

Converters are not just to convert digital signals to analog for older TVs... they're also supposed to make sense of digital channels we dumb TV viewers used to know by their analog dial positions. So my converter is grouping the Fox 5 signals together and the My 9 signals together, and telling me they're 5.1, 5.2, 9.1 and 9.2. But in its confusion, according to Scott Fybush, the converter is switching around the order, showing me 5.2 before 5.1. Scott also believes this is why I'm getting WNET's main programming on 13.3, not 13.1.

And w9wi thinks that Fox 5 is still piggybacking on the WWOR DT 38 signal and My 9 is still piggybacking on the WNYW DT 44 signal. It's just that they now call all the Fox signals five-point-something and the My signals nine-point-something. I'm still getting them from different transmitters on the Empire State Building.

I would agree with both, but I would go one step further and rescan again. See if it still is happening. It is possible that the box you have is quirky.

And that makes sense since it's possible that some viewers might get DT 44 better than DT 38 or visa versa. That way they can choose which version of Fox 5 and My 9 they prefer. Univision still does that for WXTV and Telefutura WFUT. But my converter is still reading it as 41.1 and 68.2 for Univision, 41.2 and 68.1 for Telefutura. That broadcasting company hasn't regrouped the channel assignments as Fox 5/My 9 did.

It has always amazed me with FM, signals coming from the same radiating elements, would give different real-life behaviors. Most had to do with co-channel, but others had to do with local interferences, and other factors I'm sure I don't even know about.

Gregg
[email protected]

The stations are sending out information on the signal known as PSIP. This signal is designed to let the station personnel show whatever it is they want to show. One of those is the channel identifier. In this case, since every viewer knows WNBC as NBC 4 it will show as 4.1 on digital even though it is on the #28 frequency. If you are watching an anologue station it will show up as a .0.

NYC was unusual in as much as all of the major networks have always been on VHF.

Some stations, especially in NYC, decided to move back to their VHF frequencies mainly because the viewers had VHF only antennas.

This goes back to the days before UHF was popular. Most everything viewers were interested in, was available on one of the "New York 7": 2-CBS, 4-NBC, 5-Dumont, later independent, then FOX, 7-ABC, 9-independent, 11-independent, 13-PBS.

The UHF stations were "those other stations." Most people didn't think the difference in price was worth picking up "those other channels" unless you had that TV repairman who wanted to prove to you why you bought from him.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[w9wi]

It has always amazed me with FM, signals coming from the same radiating elements, would give different real-life behaviors. Most had to do with co-channel, but others had to do with local interferences, and other factors I'm sure I don't even know about.

In this case, the two transmitters operate at different powers and are connected to different antennas. RF-38 is 355kw/439m; RF-44 is 500kw/424m. (and the latter is directional) So while they're at the same site, one might reasonably expect different coverage behavior.

 

[badjef]

It has always amazed me with FM, signals coming from the same radiating elements, would give different real-life behaviors. Most had to do with co-channel, but others had to do with local interferences, and other factors I'm sure I don't even know about.

In this case, the two transmitters operate at different powers and are connected to different antennas. RF-38 is 355kw/439m; RF-44 is 500kw/424m. (and the latter is directional) So while they're at the same site, one might reasonably expect different coverage behavior.

Is there a master U? as there is (a couple of) master FM(s)?

Time for Scott to hike again...boy, how I envy some of those trips.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[fybush]

There is a master UHF antenna, but not everyone's on it. I believe the stations using the master antenna are WNBC (RF 28), WWOR (RF 38) and WABC (RF 45). When the master was built a few years back, pre-transition, it also carried WPIX (then on RF 33), WCBS (then on RF 56) and WNET (then on RF 61). I'm not sure whether WCBS stayed on the master when it moved to RF 33; I'm thinking it did.

The other Us on Empire - WNYW (RF 44), WXTV (RF 40), WNJU (RF 36), WPXN (RF 30) - have their own antennas. WNJU uses a "distributed transmission" system with multiple transmitters on RF 36 at different sites around the market. WNYE and WFUT, which used Empire for analog TV, have moved over to 4 Times Square for DTV.

There's also a high-VHF master that went in after 9/11 for WABC (7), WWOR (9), WPIX (11) and WNET (13). It's still in use for DTV by all those stations except WWOR, which stayed on RF 38 due to spacing issues with WBPH-DT in Bethlehem PA, also on RF 9.

 

[badjef]

There is a master UHF antenna, but not everyone's on it. I believe the stations using the master antenna are WNBC (RF 28), WWOR (RF 38) and WABC (RF 45). When the master was built a few years back, pre-transition, it also carried WPIX (then on RF 33), WCBS (then on RF 56) and WNET (then on RF 61). I'm not sure whether WCBS stayed on the master when it moved to RF 33; I'm thinking it did.

The other Us on Empire - WNYW (RF 44), WXTV (RF 40), WNJU (RF 36), WPXN (RF 30) - have their own antennas. WNJU uses a "distributed transmission" system with multiple transmitters on RF 36 at different sites around the market. WNYE and WFUT, which used Empire for analog TV, have moved over to 4 Times Square for DTV.

There's also a high-VHF master that went in after 9/11 for WABC (7), WWOR (9), WPIX (11) and WNET (13). It's still in use for DTV by all those stations except WWOR, which stayed on RF 38 due to spacing issues with WBPH-DT in Bethlehem PA, also on RF 9.

Why would a station in Bethlehem, which signed on in 1991, be offered protection from a "New York 7"?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

P.S. I knew you'd come through for us...but it sounds as though it's about time to take Ariel for a trip to the "Center of the Universe".

 

[tripinva]

To my knowledge, WNJU is no longer operating their DTS.

- Trip

 

[ansky212]

To my knowledge, WNJU is no longer operating their DTS.

- Trip

Does WNJU transmit from the antenna in West Orange, NJ (located on Eagle Rock Ave. near Prospect Ave.)?

 

[fybush]

Why would a station in Bethlehem, which signed on in 1991, be offered protection from a "New York 7"?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

P.S. I knew you'd come through for us...but it sounds as though it's about time to take Ariel for a trip to the "Center of the Universe".

The protection rules changed with the transition. Stations wanting to return to their pre-transition analog channels for DTV use have to protect post-transition digital assignments at other stations, even newer ones. WABC, WPIX and WNET got lucky (sort of - WPIX and WNET suffer interference from 11 and 13 in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.) WWOR didn't get so lucky.

As for travel plans, the family's going to Boston this summer...that's the "big trip" this year!

 

[tripinva]

Does WNJU transmit from the antenna in West Orange, NJ (located on Eagle Rock Ave. near Prospect Ave.)?

Not anymore. It's now on the Empire State Building.

- Trip

 

[ansky212]

Does WNJU transmit from the antenna in West Orange, NJ (located on Eagle Rock Ave. near Prospect Ave.)?

Not anymore. It's now on the Empire State Building.

- Trip

So is the tower in West Orange turned off now or is someone else using it?

 

[luperm]

I believe there is at least on LPTV on the West Orange (Eagle Rock Ave.) tower.

 

[morefaves]

About a year ago, I posted the line up of digital channels available in NYC. Since then the dial has changed a bit, with two new stations available (17 and 64) and a few others rearranged.

2.1 WCBS-TV...CBS...DT 33

4.1 WNBC...NBC...DT 28
4.2 Non-Stop NY (Local News, Weather, Features)
4.4 Universal Sports (mostly pre-Olympic competitions) (No 4.3 channel)

5.2 WNYW...Fox...DT 44
5.1 same (Not sure why 5.2 comes before 5.1 on my channel line up)

7.1 WABC-TV...ABC...DT 7
7.2 Liv Well...health programs and infomercials
7.3 Accu-Weather with local WABC meteorologist inserts

9.1 WWOR...My Network...DT 38
9.2 same (Co-owned Fox 5 used to show up here and WWOR used to show up on 5.2, but no more.)

11.1 WPIX...CW...DT 11
11.2 Estrella...Spanish language programming (Something called LaTV, a youthful half Spanish, half English channel similar to MUN2 used to be on 11.3 but that's gone.)

13.1 Kids Thirteen...PBS Kids Shows
13.2 V Me...Public Television in Spanish
13.3 WNET...PBS...DT 13 (Not sure why the principal programming is on 13.3?)
13.4 blank screen
13.5 blank screen

17.1 WEBR...DT 17 blank screen (I believe this will be a religion station in the future because they test with some religion shows.)
17.2 blank screen
17.4 Korean Radio (no video... and no 17.3)

25.1 WNYE...PBS and city programs...DT 24
25.2 City Drive Live (Continuous 5 second shots from numerous traffic cameras around NYC)

31.1 WPXN...Ion...DT 31
31.2 qubo...non-commercial and PBS children's shows
31.3 Ion Live...health, home repair and travel shows plus infomercials (31.4 Worship, a channel of religious music videos, is gone.)

41.1 WXTV...Univision...DT 40
41.2 WFUT

47.1 WNJU...Telemundo...DT 36

50.1 WNJN...New Jersey Network and PBS...DT 51
50.2 NJN 2 (Alternate PBS and NJN programs)
50.3 NJN Audio Service (reading for the blind)

64.1 WASA...Continuous infomercials...DT 25
64.2 Continuous slides of NYC landmarks. (Station is licensed to Port Jervis, NY, about 70 miles away, but I think it broadcasts from the Empire State Building.)

68.1 WFUT...Telefutura...DT 30
68.2 WXTV

These are the channels I get living on the Upper West Side. According to the list from www.tvfool.com, I'm missing quite a few low power broadcasters who don't transmit from the ESB or other midtown location. It's odd that I get WNJN from Montclair but not WFME from nearby West Orange NJ. Others say they have problems with WABC, WPIX and WNET since those stations remain on VHF channels. I do notice WABC drops out sometimes, even though I haven't touched the antenna. But I guess I live close enough to the ESB that these VHF channels aren't usually problems for me.


Gregg
[email protected]

Thanks for the list. I miss LATV on 11.2, as it was the only place I could see CMLL Wrestling from Mexico in the NY area.