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NYC Radio: Lame and Getting Lamer

D

dab1100

Guest
I grew up in Central NJ in the 60's and 70's and was fortunate to hear radio history being made. Stations like WMCA, WABC, WOR-FM, and WNEW-FM in the 60's... WCBS-FM and WNBC in the 70's... Z-100 in the '80's all made the rules and defined their genres.

I was back for a visit this weekend and found NY radio to me, to put it mildy, lame. Well, actually, it sucked! From one end of the dial to the other, there was nothing but bland McFormats. When WLTW is the best sounding station on the dial, we have a problem. Among other things, I find it amazing that in the largest market in the county, there is no country station, no oldies station, no rhythmic CHR, and AC comes in three flavors... all vanilla.

No wonder I ran down the batteries on my 'pod while at the beach (sorry, Jack, my 'pod still beats your "pod" even with dead batteries.)
 
> I grew up in Central NJ in the 60's and 70's and was
> fortunate to hear radio history being made. Stations like
> WMCA, WABC, WOR-FM, and WNEW-FM in the 60's... WCBS-FM and
> WNBC in the 70's... Z-100 in the '80's all made the rules
> and defined their genres.
>
> I was back for a visit this weekend and found NY radio to
> me, to put it mildy, lame. Well, actually, it sucked! From
> one end of the dial to the other, there was nothing but
> bland McFormats. When WLTW is the best sounding station on
> the dial, we have a problem. Among other things, I find it
> amazing that in the largest market in the county, there is
> no country station, no oldies station, no rhythmic CHR, and
> AC comes in three flavors... all vanilla.

OK...

Never offer a negative if you have no positive to counter-act it. How about some specific ideas on specific formats? Tell us how you'd tweak an existing station or how you'd re-build it from the ground up, if you don't mind.

Since you were able to listen to the Golden Ages of Radio in Da Big Apple, help us out here! :)
 
I'll jump in on this one. I grew up in Westchester County. After I left New York I used to get irritated with Tampa radio for being borderline cheesy. Bottom line: I believe New Yorkers are being under-served. You deserve more and better.

NY had: On this list I mention only the FM stations I regularly listened to. AM is a whole other discussion.

92.5 WKTU - The only good Dance station. I had heard many Disco stations along the coast but none were listenable beyond two songs.
95.5 WPLJ - a fun Rock station that emphasized new Rock. While NEW played Zep hese guys played Kiss.
98.7 WXLO - Top 40 that played the best Disco and Rock. They would daypart heavily.
101.1 CBS - World's geatest oldies.
102.7 NEW - A great heritage station with a powerhouse library and music knowledge.
107.5 - WBLS was the plce for Soul.

Today -
92.3 - WXRK A good Rock station. Unfortunate that New York cannot support the three major Rock formats: Alt. Rocker, AOR, and a Classic Rocker.
95.5 - Can you say boring? Sounds like the Q105 in Tampa. A station Scott Shannon used to do mornings on.
98.7 - 98 Kiss- Very good.
101.1 CBS - They are what PLJ should have been.
102.7 NEW - F@#$ it. If KTU was not alrady in place I would understand its existence.
100.3 HTZ - Sounds good
103.5 KTU- For many years they carried the torch from the original KTU. Lost direction since Clear Channel took over. They should go real Dance.
107.5 BLS - A real snoozer lately. I don't envy the PD. There is so much competition. Just the fact that they are still programmed Urban is a feat.
 
I just checked the board rules and I don't see anything about never offering a negative without a postive.

There are people around whose job it is to offer specific ideas or tweaks, and to re-build stations. They are called consultants and they get paid for their advice. Maybe you radio "professionals" should pay attention when someone from the audience says they are not satisfied, instead of telling them they should do your job for you.

By the way, I notice you have offered more than your share of negatives (without counter-acting positives) on this board.

>
> OK...
>
> Never offer a negative if you have no positive to
> counter-act it. How about some specific ideas on specific
> formats? Tell us how you'd tweak an existing station or how
> you'd re-build it from the ground up, if you don't mind.
>
> Since you were able to listen to the Golden Ages of Radio in
> Da Big Apple, help us out here! :)
>
 
Reading between the lines..... I already suggested that the big Apple could use an Oldies and Country station for starters. Could also use a Classic Hits station (like Chicago's WDRV).... a Triple A station (like Chicago's WXRT)... a well-executed AC (like the old 97/WYNY used to be?
 
> I'll jump in on this one. I grew up in Westchester County.
> After I left New York I used to get irritated with Tampa
> radio for being borderline cheesy. Bottom line: I believe
> New Yorkers are being under-served. You deserve more and
> better.
>
> NY had: On this list I mention only the FM stations I
> regularly listened to. AM is a whole other discussion.
>
> 92.5 WKTU - The only good Dance station. I had heard many
> Disco stations along the coast but none were listenable
> beyond two songs.
> 95.5 WPLJ - a fun Rock station that emphasized new Rock.
> While NEW played Zep hese guys played Kiss.
> 98.7 WXLO - Top 40 that played the best Disco and Rock. They
> would daypart heavily.
> 101.1 CBS - World's geatest oldies.
> 102.7 NEW - A great heritage station with a powerhouse
> library and music knowledge.
> 107.5 - WBLS was the plce for Soul.
>
> Today -
> 92.3 - WXRK A good Rock station. Unfortunate that New York
> cannot support the three major Rock formats: Alt. Rocker,
> AOR, and a Classic Rocker.
> 95.5 - Can you say boring? Sounds like the Q105 in Tampa. A
> station Scott Shannon used to do mornings on.
> 98.7 - 98 Kiss- Very good.
> 101.1 CBS - They are what PLJ should have been.
> 102.7 NEW - F@#$ it. If KTU was not alrady in place I would
> understand its existence.
> 100.3 HTZ - Sounds good
> 103.5 KTU- For many years they carried the torch from the
> original KTU. Lost direction since Clear Channel took over.
> They should go real Dance.
> 107.5 BLS - A real snoozer lately. I don't envy the PD.
> There is so much competition. Just the fact that they are
> still programmed Urban is a feat.
>
Mid 90's was great for me on New York radio when 98.7 ( Emmis didnt own it at that time ) and Hot 97 and 107.5 BLS was at war with each other . These Station put out the Phat new Hip Hop music and it was a great battle for who will be the top Hip Hop station in New York where Hip Hop was born . Today Power 105.1 and Hot 97 battle is not the same as 98.7 and 107.5 and hot 97 back then . <P ID="signature">______________
Jack Format is bad for radio .</P>
 
How about the time in the early 90's when Z went alternative...I know that you radio people denounce this era as bad. But this was the era when Z won best rock station in the country in Rolling Stone, several years in a row.

It's very pathetic that New York doesn't have an alternative, or an oldies station! There obviously has been an outcry for CBS Fm's demise. But I'm also sick of hearing how alternative is a "niche" format. New rock music is not niche! just imagine if NEW or PLJ back in the 70's wouldn't play new rock b/c it was "niche." This is why radio is dying by the way...please take a chance, or the hole will keep getting deeper.




> Reading between the lines..... I already suggested that the
> big Apple could use an Oldies and Country station for
> starters. Could also use a Classic Hits station (like
> Chicago's WDRV).... a Triple A station (like Chicago's
> WXRT)... a well-executed AC (like the old 97/WYNY used to
> be?
>
 
> How about the time in the early 90's when Z went
> alternative...I know that you radio people denounce this era
> as bad. But this was the era when Z won best rock station in
> the country in Rolling Stone, several years in a row.
>
> It's very pathetic that New York doesn't have an
> alternative, or an oldies station! There obviously has been
> an outcry for CBS Fm's demise. But I'm also sick of hearing
> how alternative is a "niche" format. New rock music is not
> niche! just imagine if NEW or PLJ back in the 70's wouldn't
> play new rock b/c it was "niche." This is why radio is
> dying by the way...please take a chance, or the hole will
> keep getting deeper.
>
>
>
>
> > Reading between the lines..... I already suggested that
> the
> > big Apple could use an Oldies and Country station for
> > starters. Could also use a Classic Hits station (like
> > Chicago's WDRV).... a Triple A station (like Chicago's
> > WXRT)... a well-executed AC (like the old 97/WYNY used to
> > be?
> >
>

These radio corporations can only hope that people would latch on to HD radios when they are available to the general public. That MIGHT be their only saving grace. Then PERHAPS a KTU "2" could have current cutting edge dance, New York can once again have oldies, country and other formats that have been ignored.

Other than that, just grab and iPod and hit Shuffle :)

TONY SANTIAGO
 
Hmm, WXRT...

> Reading between the lines..... I already suggested that the
> big Apple could use an Oldies and Country station for
> starters. Could also use a Classic Hits station (like
> Chicago's WDRV).... a Triple A station (like Chicago's
> WXRT)... a well-executed AC (like the old 97/WYNY used to
> be?
>

Hmm, you make one interesting point, namely that NY doesn't have a triple A station (actually, it does, but it's a station in Westchester that doesn't reach large parts of the city). But not NYC itself, that's correct.

I used to live in the Midwest in the 80s, listened to WXRT pretty often and really admired it. Supposedly, those were that station's glory days, but it is still around and seems to have a solid listener base, maybe decent enough billings for its current owners, and well... it's still around. WXRT, in its day, took some risks and certainly played a lot of great outside-the-mainstream rock, and made it into a successful commercial format before other alt-rock and modern rock stations tried it in many other markets. Maybe it wasn't that difficult with a lot of dopey AOR stations doing their dopey thing in those days (editorial comment). But I listened to XRT religiously when I could and admired them for what they did.

I'm tempted to ask, why did 'XRT happen in Chicago and not here in NYC? When, if ever, has there been something similar in New York? And if not, why not? (sorry to sound like an essay question on an exam) This is sort of a historical question, not an argument. I didn't live in NYC until the 90s and am just curious.

NYC certainly had a great rock music history in the 70s and 80s, I'm just not aware of any "alternative" rock station, until Q104 came along, and modern rock stations were happening in lots of other markets by that time. Was there ever one in NYC before that time?

I have to add that WXRT is probably one reason that I still love radio to this day. I genuinely loved it and appreciated it back in the day. Thanks for reading this windy message (pardon the expression).
 
Re: Hmm, WXRT...

> > Reading between the lines..... I already suggested that
> the
> > big Apple could use an Oldies and Country station for
> > starters. Could also use a Classic Hits station (like
> > Chicago's WDRV).... a Triple A station (like Chicago's
> > WXRT)... a well-executed AC (like the old 97/WYNY used to
> > be?
> >
>
> Hmm, you make one interesting point, namely that NY doesn't
> have a triple A station (actually, it does, but it's a
> station in Westchester that doesn't reach large parts of the
> city). But not NYC itself, that's correct.
>
> I used to live in the Midwest in the 80s, listened to WXRT
> pretty often and really admired it. Supposedly, those were
> that station's glory days, but it is still around and seems
> to have a solid listener base, maybe decent enough billings
> for its current owners, and well... it's still around.
> WXRT, in its day, took some risks and certainly played a lot
> of great outside-the-mainstream rock, and made it into a
> successful commercial format before other alt-rock and
> modern rock stations tried it in many other markets. Maybe
> it wasn't that difficult with a lot of dopey AOR stations
> doing their dopey thing in those days (editorial comment).
> But I listened to XRT religiously when I could and admired
> them for what they did.
>
> I'm tempted to ask, why did 'XRT happen in Chicago and not
> here in NYC? When, if ever, has there been something
> similar in New York? And if not, why not? (sorry to sound
> like an essay question on an exam) This is sort of a
> historical question, not an argument. I didn't live in NYC
> until the 90s and am just curious.
>
> NYC certainly had a great rock music history in the 70s and
> 80s, I'm just not aware of any "alternative" rock station,
> until Q104 came along, and modern rock stations were
> happening in lots of other markets by that time. Was there
> ever one in NYC before that time?
>
> I have to add that WXRT is probably one reason that I still
> love radio to this day. I genuinely loved it and
> appreciated it back in the day. Thanks for reading this
> windy message (pardon the expression).
>


Well I'm not too familiar with WXRT, but from the way you describe it, it sounds much like the original WLIR and later WDRE that broadcast on 92.7...technically a Long Island station, but with a very good signal in most of the five boroughs, especially Queens and the Bronx. They played a lot of cutting edge artists that commercial stations either wouldn't touch or would harp on months or years later as "new music." U2, Depeche Mode, The Smiths, etc. were all heard there first. They were kind of like KROQ in LA in terms of being innovative. In the early 90's they tweaked and went with the grunge craze, and that began a long series of format tweaks and name changes...around 1996 or so they brought back the heritage call letters and abandoned the grungy stuff. Their format ended up being a mixed bag...featuring some new hot-ACish stuff, some retro 80's, and some cutting edge dance music. They sounded best when they focused on the latter two, IMO. In any way, everyone knows the story of the demise of 92.7......
 
Nah, I already pay for Sirius ;)




> > How about the time in the early 90's when Z went
> > alternative...I know that you radio people denounce this
> era
> > as bad. But this was the era when Z won best rock station
> in
> > the country in Rolling Stone, several years in a row.
> >
> > It's very pathetic that New York doesn't have an
> > alternative, or an oldies station! There obviously has
> been
> > an outcry for CBS Fm's demise. But I'm also sick of
> hearing
> > how alternative is a "niche" format. New rock music is
> not
> > niche! just imagine if NEW or PLJ back in the 70's
> wouldn't
> > play new rock b/c it was "niche." This is why radio is
> > dying by the way...please take a chance, or the hole will
> > keep getting deeper.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Reading between the lines..... I already suggested that
> > the
> > > big Apple could use an Oldies and Country station for
> > > starters. Could also use a Classic Hits station (like
> > > Chicago's WDRV).... a Triple A station (like Chicago's
> > > WXRT)... a well-executed AC (like the old 97/WYNY used
> to
> > > be?
> > >
> >
>
> These radio corporations can only hope that people would
> latch on to HD radios when they are available to the general
> public. That MIGHT be their only saving grace. Then
> PERHAPS a KTU "2" could have current cutting edge dance, New
> York can once again have oldies, country and other formats
> that have been ignored.
>
> Other than that, just grab and iPod and hit Shuffle :)
>
> TONY SANTIAGO
>
 
Re: Hmm, WXRT...

When you speak of "alternative", one has to ask, "alternative to what?" The original "alternative" station had to be WNEW-FM when it flipped to rock in 1967, although the "alternative" format really did not emerge until the '80's. When it was foundering throughout most of the '90's and the '00's (or whatever we're going to refer to the current decade as) adult alternative might have been the natural evolution of the station had it not been rudder-less and then quickly hopped from rock to talk to whatever "Blink" was supposed to be, to several flavors of "Mix."

I can't comment on WXPK because where I was, WWZY was the dominant signal on 107.1. I'm guessing the signal is OK in parts the Bronx and Bergen county, but for most of the NY metro.... non-existent.

Aside from the obvious hole left by CBS-FM's (hi)Jacking, I am still amazed that NY does not have a country outlet (not even a suburban rim-shot to speak of)in spite of the fact that virtually every other market in the Northeast not only has a country station but one that does well in the ratings. (And please spare me the excuse that New Yorkers are "too sophisticated." If I bought that logic, everybody would be reading the Times and the Post and Daily News would be out of business.)
 
I find it
> amazing that in the largest market in the county, there is
> no country station, no oldies station, no rhythmic CHR, and
> AC comes in three flavors... all vanilla.


I pretty much disagree with everything you say. If I was in small town or medium market America I would be amazed if there was no country station. NYC is one place I would NOT be surprised to see without a country station. It's far too ethnic and culturally non-country for the format to thrive. NYC is the least country place in the United States. I'm not saying nobody in NYC likes country, I'm not saying it wouldn't do OK on a suburban signal, I am saying it would be a "waste" for a good NYC signal to do a format that has such limited potential. Contrary to popular opnion, the owners aren't stupid, if it was a moneymaker, there would be a country station.

As for no oldies station. WCBS-FM was still billing enough and was strong enough 25-54 where I think they pulled the plug too early. Still, in 2005 it would never surprise me to find any market big or small that doesn't have an oldies station.

I am curious about you saying NY lacks a rhythmic CHR. It seems to me the market has the full spectrum of rhythmic formats. Hip Hop on WHQT, Hip Hop/Urban on Power, Z100 plays plenty of rhythmic product, WKTU could be considered a rhythmic Hot AC, and now Univision has a La Kalle Hurban. What exactly do you have in mind that there would be a hole for?

I also disagree with the "3 ACs, all vanilla" comment. How many ACs do you want? WLTW is obviously extremely successful with what they do, WPLJ covers the Hot AC position, WNEW isn't doing that great (although they are showing some consistent slow growth as of late), but Mix can hardly be called vanilla, in fact they are quite unique, you won't hear an AC like that anywhere else. If anything, NY needs a vanilla AC, something softer and MORE VANILLA than WLTW.

I also don't think it's fair to compare radio from the 60s/70s to today. Radio has changed everywhere not just NY. I'm not saying all the changes have been for the better (or the worse), but it's a whole different era and everything, not just radio, is different than it used to be.
 
Re: Hmm, WXRT...

Yup, that's right, now that I think about it. I think WLIR/WDRE was similar to WXRT in the 80s and early 90s. I had actually forgotten about that station. This probably sounds like a ridiculous thing to forget, but those stations had flipped by the time I moved to NYC and I only heard them on visits to the NY area. Thanks for the comment.
 
> How about the time in the early 90's when Z went
> alternative...I know that you radio people denounce this era
> as bad. But this was the era when Z won best rock station in
> the country in Rolling Stone, several years in a row.

I dont believe they ever won best rock station especially not from Rolling Stone but they were a fun trainwreck to listen to during that time!. New Order, depeche Mode, Nirvana, SNOOP DOG!.
>
> It's very pathetic that New York doesn't have an
> alternative, or an oldies station! There obviously has been
> an outcry for CBS Fm's demise. But I'm also sick of hearing
> how alternative is a "niche" format. New rock music is not
> niche! just imagine if NEW or PLJ back in the 70's wouldn't
> play new rock b/c it was "niche." This is why radio is
> dying by the way...please take a chance, or the hole will
> keep getting deeper.
>
>
>
>
> > Reading between the lines..... I already suggested that
> the
> > big Apple could use an Oldies and Country station for
> > starters. Could also use a Classic Hits station (like
> > Chicago's WDRV).... a Triple A station (like Chicago's
> > WXRT)... a well-executed AC (like the old 97/WYNY used to
> > be?
> >
>
 
> I dont believe they ever won best rock station especially
> not from Rolling Stone but they were a fun trainwreck to
> listen to during that time!. New Order, depeche Mode,
> Nirvana, SNOOP DOG!.
> >
The Z-100 of that era garnered accolades from MTV's specialty show 120 Minutes and even from Howard Stern's now ex-wife Allison!
 
It was the best in the late 80's, early 90's.

I remembered when their use to be variety. There was Hot 103/97 then their was Z100 and WPLJ all playing great music. Then my high school years Z100 went more alt rock but still listined. Hot 97 started to go rap and at first it was okay but then I relized how filty the rap music was the station went downhill. KTU was great when it went on in 1996 and use to listen to it all the time however when Clear channel bought it, it got worse as did a lot of other stations. By 2002 NYC radio is the pits. You had another waste rap station added. KTU bairly played any real dance and the commercials were out of hand. That November I got XM Radio and never looked back. When XM went ad free in 2004 it stopped me from getting Sirius and NYC radio was even worse. I on ocassion put on FM but turned it off right away.
 
> I pretty much disagree with everything you say. If I was in
> small town or medium market America I would be amazed if
> there was no country station. NYC is one place I would NOT
> be surprised to see without a country station. It's far too
> ethnic and culturally non-country for the format to thrive.
> NYC is the least country place in the United States.

I'm going to have to disagree right backatcha'. True... NY is ethnic, diversified, sophisticated, etc, but so are cities like Miami, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and Chicago, to name a few, that support successful country stations. I also don't buy the argument I've heard that country doesn't play wellin the northeast. Go one market away in any direction from New York and you'll see a successful country station,

the owners
> aren't stupid, if it was a moneymaker, there would be a
> country station.

I won't say that the owners are "stupid" but sometimes they have to take the blinders off. For years, I had heard that Tampa was too something-or-other to support an urban station despite the fact that urban was kickin' ass and takin' names all over Florida. Lo and behold, Clear Channel flips one of their signals to "The Beat" and the station goes Top-5 almost overnight. For years, there was no country station in Boston, then two stations made the change. After trying to cannibalize themselves for a while, one station bowed out and the survivor is doing respectable numbers. The problem here is that most owners are so busy playing defense, i.e. trying to protect one asset by throwing another under the bus, that they're afraid to go on offense. Launching a country in NY would definitely be an offensive move (and I don't mean "offensive" in a perjorative sense). Actually, when WYNY was country and on a full-power stick... not that suburban rin-shot setup... they were doing respectable numbers... certiainly better than, say WNEW-FM, has done in recent history.

>
> As for no oldies station. WCBS-FM was still billing enough
> and was strong enough 25-54 where I think they pulled the
> plug too early. Still, in 2005 it would never surprise me to
> find any market big or small that doesn't have an oldies
> station.

WCBS was billing well over $30 million and doing respectable numbers. I agree, they pulled the plug too early. In fact, they shouldn't have pulled the plug... just made some consistent tugs on the rudder. In order to continue to do respectabel 25-54 numbers, the station would have had to be more centered on the era from around 1970 through the late '80's. They also should have updated their on-air presentation (their Jingle package, although a classic, was 11 years old) and some of the jocks were past their prime. The station could have evolved into some of the music they're playing now without blowing it up and going to the lame presentation they're doing now.

>
> I am curious about you saying NY lacks a rhythmic CHR. It
> seems to me the market has the full spectrum of rhythmic
> formats. Hip Hop on WHQT, Hip Hop/Urban on Power, Z100 plays
> plenty of rhythmic product, WKTU could be considered a
> rhythmic Hot AC, and now Univision has a La Kalle Hurban.
> What exactly do you have in mind that there would be a hole
> for?

Agreed, Z-100 does play a lot of rhythmic product, but I was thinking more along the lines of WPOW Miami, KPWR LA, WPGC Washington, KMEL San Francisco, etc. The urban field may be a bit crowded and I think you might find one or more of the players evolving to either Urban AC or Rhythmic CHR in time.

>
> I also disagree with the "3 ACs, all vanilla" comment. How
> many ACs do you want? WLTW is obviously extremely successful
> with what they do, WPLJ covers the Hot AC position, WNEW
> isn't doing that great (although they are showing some
> consistent slow growth as of late), but Mix can hardly be
> called vanilla, in fact they are quite unique, you won't
> hear an AC like that anywhere else. If anything, NY needs a
> vanilla AC, something softer and MORE VANILLA than WLTW.

I don't dispute that WLTW is extremely successful, but their on-air presetation is extremely bland compared to, say their sister KOST in LA. But, I will give them a pass on that. If it ain't broke.... PLJ does an OK job but lacks pizazz it had a few years back. As for WNEW... I still haven't figured out what they're doing.... and looking at the ratings, I'm not alone.

> I also don't think it's fair to compare radio from the
> 60s/70s to today. Radio has changed everywhere not just NY.
> I'm not saying all the changes have been for the better (or
> the worse), but it's a whole different era and everything,
> not just radio, is different than it used to be.

I expect radio in the '00's to the radio of the 60's or 70's... but it doesn't have to be poorly executed. Quite frankly, radio's heyday as a music delivery system may be over with the surge in sat-rad, mp3 players, internet, et. al. Its salvation is as an ENTERTAINMENT medium that offers something above and beyond the music. If the industry realizes that radio is about "show business" and not 10-in-a-row it will thrive. If not, it will have some rough years ahead of it.
 
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