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NYC Urban Wasteland

K

KlassikKountry

Guest
After reading all these posts, it seems the country's largest, most historic city, a city that holds the biggest Rock, Country and Retro Acts, DOES NOT have one Active/Metal, Modern/Alternative, Country or Standards station, instead its an urban music wasteland. How many stations can be urban or hispanic in some way, shape or form, it seems 95% are, does this really make any sense. What happened to the audiance that embraced this music in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. Did they dry up and blow away, or move to Florida. We are having the same problem in Philadelphia, but at least there is a Country station that does very well, and an alternative to YSP now FREE-FM, WMMR which is not fantastic but a place to go when YSP yacks from 6AM to 7PM. YSP does Rock after 7PM and on the weekends though, a real good Active Rocker, will K-Rock do the same???
 
Re: Wrong math.

> After reading all these posts, it seems the country's
> largest, most historic city, a city that holds the biggest
> Rock, Country and Retro Acts, DOES NOT have one
> Active/Metal,

Not enough people would listen.

> Modern/Alternative,

Not enough people would listen.

> Country

Not enough people would listen.


> or Standards

Enough people would listen, but they would be of ages that are of no interest to 99% of advertising campaigns.

> station, instead its an urban music wasteland. How many
> stations can be urban

Urban is a broad music form. If elements of it appeal to much of the poulation, we will have 4 or 5 urban / hio hop / Uraban AC and Urban gold formats.

Stations program, roughly, in proportion to what people want to hear. If a format has too little appeal, it goes away and the station gets a new one.

> or hispanic

"Hispanic" is not a format. It is an ethnic group representing nearly 25% of the metro NYC population. Proportionally, there should be about 18 of the 73 staitons home to the metro targeting Hispnics.

> in some way, shape or
> form, it seems 95% are, does this really make any sense.

Actually, MOST are NOT. You do not count well.

> What happened to the audiance that embraced this music in
> the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. Did they dry up and
> blow away, or move to Florida.

Some music forms dried up, and folks moved on. Others lost their appeal to sales generating age gorups (oldies, standards, Beautiful music, etc.)

If hter eis a viable audience, some station will program to it.
 
Sigh

> Urban is a broad music form. If elements of it appeal to
> much of the poulation, we will have 4 or 5 urban / hio hop /
> Uraban AC and Urban gold formats.

And you wonder why the slow agonizing death of radio is being realized even more. No variety and sex blasted in your face 24/7. How sad and boring. Thank God for great alternatives like mp3 players and the internet.
 
Re: Sigh

Amen to that about the mp3 players and the internet, between that and Xm & Sirius that's the new wave of radio listening.

>
> And you wonder why the slow agonizing death of radio is
> being realized even more. No variety and sex blasted in your
> face 24/7. How sad and boring. Thank God for great
> alternatives like mp3 players and the internet.
>
 
Re: Sigh

> Amen to that about the mp3 players and the internet, between
> that and Xm & Sirius that's the new wave of radio listening.
>
I havent yet bought into Satellite Radio. I have a hard time justifying to myself why I should pay monthly for things I still (crosses fingers) can get elsewhere...but at the rate terrestrial radio is turing south, I don't think it'll be long now...
 
Re: Sigh

> > Urban is a broad music form. If elements of it appeal to
> > much of the poulation, we will have 4 or 5 urban / hio hop
> /
> > Uraban AC and Urban gold formats.
>
> And you wonder why the slow agonizing death of radio is
> being realized even more. No variety and sex blasted in your
> face 24/7. How sad and boring. Thank God for great
> alternatives like mp3 players and the internet.
>

The only reason there are 4 or 5 hip hop, urban and rhythmic stations is because there is plenty of audience for those genres. If such formats get large audiences, how can radio be "dying" because of it?

P.S. If you like hip hop and urban, there is plenty of variety in the music. In fact, a hip hop fan might say that all rock sounds the same. Beauty, as the old saw goes, is in the eye of the beholder. Perhpas the kind of music you like is not liked by many, which would be why it is not on the radio.

Radio is not about what you individually like. It is, faithful to the name "broadcasting," about what significant and large groups of people like.
 
Re: Sigh

> The only reason there are 4 or 5 hip hop, urban and rhythmic
> stations is because there is plenty of audience for those
> genres. If such formats get large audiences, how can radio
> be "dying" because of it?
>
> P.S. If you like hip hop and urban, there is plenty of
> variety in the music. In fact, a hip hop fan might say that
> all rock sounds the same. Beauty, as the old saw goes, is in
> the eye of the beholder. Perhpas the kind of music you like
> is not liked by many, which would be why it is not on the
> radio.
>
> Radio is not about what you individually like. It is,
> faithful to the name "broadcasting," about what significant
> and large groups of people like.
>

Though I dont know you I can tell from this board you are fond of quibbling type fights which I have no intention in getting in one with you. I happen to like a VERY large variety of music. (Considering I personally own well over 25000 songs)
Because I like variety I hate to see a market saturated with one type of format. In this case its HipHop. If it were Rock, or AC I would say the same thing. Therefore it is NOT faithful to the name broadcasting or we would see a station dedicated to every format. Because of this, radio is dying. If it weren't, satellite and internet radio wouldn't be half as popular.
 
Re: Sigh

>>
> Though I dont know you I can tell from this board you are
> fond of quibbling type fights which I have no intention in
> getting in one with you.

This is a discussion, not a fight. When one says, "I will not 'fight' with you" it generally means they do not have any facts with which to rebut an opposing viewpoint.

> I happen to like a VERY large
> variety of music. (Considering I personally own well over
> 25000 songs)

You are very unique. A recent study of iPod owners showed that the average was around 300 songs per device, not the thousands they can handle. Interestingly, 300 is about the average playlist size for most 18 to 50 year old targeted radio stations.

Boards like these are frequented by an eclectic group of people. Many want to vent their dissatisfaction with radio because broadcast radio is not as eclectic as they are. Some just want to understand why some of the music they like does not get broadcast. And some are nihilists and just want to wax bombastic about radio.

Whatever the case, the 95% of Americans who use radio each week do not want to hear 1000 or 10,000 or 25,000 songs. In fact, each generally has several different stations "favorites" and will get the best 300, plus or minues a few, of each type of station they cume.

> Because I like variety I hate to see a market saturated with
> one type of format.

One of the errors is to call urban and hip hop formats by the same name. An urban station includes r&b, and many hip hop stations are very limited in this. There are urban AC stations. There are churbans, which are generally not targeted specifically at specific ethnic groups (like KIIS in LA).

In NY, I see two Black/targeted, mostly hip hop stations, Power and Hot. I see tow different flavors of Urban in Kiss and WBLS. That is only two choices for each format for younger and older, predominantly African Americans, who like that kind of format. This is certainly no more saturated than AC, where we have a range in NY from soft to hot AC on a variety of stations.

After all, the market is about 20% Black.

> In this case its HipHop. If it were
> Rock, or AC I would say the same thing. Therefore it is NOT
> faithful to the name broadcasting or we would see a station
> dedicated to every format.

You are looking at the "broad" in broadcasting as covering a broad range of formats. Station owners, going back 80 years, have looked at the "broad" as meaning "broad appeal" and, even, "broad sales appeal." So a format does not deserve to be exposed on the radio if a lot of potential listeners do not exist.

Generally, if a format does not exist in NY, it is because the format can not either generate revenue or listeners or both.

> Because of this, radio is dying.

Actually, it is not. 95% of all Americans still listen to radio each week, and this has been unchanged over the last several decades. The average American listens to radio about 20:15 hours a week, down only 45 total minutes from the average in 1952 before the TV freeze was lifted!

Satellite has a total subscriber base that is less than the combined cume of the top 3 stations in NY. Satellite loses 2 dollars for every dollar in revenue still; most satellite installs are in-car which only impacts the roughly 30% of terrestrial listening that takes place in cars.

> If it weren't, satellite and internet radio wouldn't be half
> as popular.

Define "popular." Satellite, all services and all channels, can not even "make the book" in rated markets yet, meaning it does not get roughly 0.3% of listening.
 
Re: Sigh

I totally agree, if the market was over saturated with any format I would bark. The funny thing is, when the city has a few Rock leaning formats all the Rappers are at arms, but if they have all their formats without Rock they are OK with it. The same thing is happening here in Philadelphia, we had a load of Rockers and all you heard was the urban crowd yelling, now its the other way around, all the stations that flipped to urban are on the way down but the crowd is silent.
 
Re: Sigh

And then the NAB wonders why people start up pirate radio stations.
 
Re: Sigh

> And then the NAB wonders why people start up pirate radio
> stations.
>

Nobody really wonders about this. Pirate stations have been around for decades. Today, most are started out of some feeling that "my favorite mix of gangsta rap" is better than what is on the radio. Many seem to find delight in playing songs licensed stations would find themselves fined for playing. Others believe that many people share their taste. Most give up whent hey realize it is work. Others give up when they are told it is illegal and are handed FCC papers.

A very few, like the ones in Berkley and New Hampshire, are motivated by a perceived need to do alternative radio without a license.

In any case, it is illegal. One can, legally and easily, do the same thing on an internet stream. But that takes the fun out of it.
 
Re: Sigh

> You are very unique. A recent study of iPod owners showed
> that the average was around 300 songs per device, not the
> thousands they can handle. Interestingly, 300 is about the
> average playlist size for most 18 to 50 year old targeted
> radio stations.
>
> Boards like these are frequented by an eclectic group of
> people. Many want to vent their dissatisfaction with radio
> because broadcast radio is not as eclectic as they are. Some
> just want to understand why some of the music they like does
> not get broadcast. And some are nihilists and just want to
> wax bombastic about radio.
>
> Whatever the case, the 95% of Americans who use radio each
> week do not want to hear 1000 or 10,000 or 25,000 songs. In
> fact, each generally has several different stations
> "favorites" and will get the best 300, plus or minues a few,
> of each type of station they cume.
>

I dont expect to hear 25000 songs on the radio (nor would I want to) my point was diffuse your argument about me being one-sided or only looking for gains in one genre.


> In NY, I see two Black/targeted, mostly hip hop stations,
> Power and Hot. I see two different flavors of Urban in Kiss
> and WBLS. That is only two choices for each format for
> younger and older, predominantly African Americans, who like
> that kind of format. This is certainly no more saturated
> than AC, where we have a range in NY from soft to hot AC on
> a variety of stations.
>
> After all, the market is about 20% Black.

There are rather large differences in demographics between Urban/R&B and AC/Hot AC so thats a hard analogy. Therefore I can't completely agree with you. Besides, Thats 4 under Urban/R&B and 2 for AC (LiteFM and WPLJ) (Jack is a story to itself. 103.9 and WHUD are Westchester stations)


> Actually, it is not. 95% of all Americans still listen to
> radio each week, and this has been unchanged over the last
> several decades. The average American listens to radio about
> 20:15 hours a week, down only 45 total minutes from the
> average in 1952 before the TV freeze was lifted!
>

This I haven't heard of, though I find it hard to believe most people average 3 hours a day soley on radio. Whats listening too? Leaving the radio on in a room while taking a shower? In any case, if that is true, I bet it is more office/work penetration then it is home/car. Given the rate of sales of 6 CD changers and mp3 player stereo adapters sales, radio numbers have to be down in that area. Great info though.

>
> Define "popular." Satellite, all services and all channels,
> can not even "make the book" in rated markets yet, meaning
> it does not get roughly 0.3% of listening.

Of course not. Most satellite radio stations are commercial free, so advertising interest would be low. Plus with so many channels people rarely stick to one station. It's a hard area to rate.

Great Reply :)
 
Re: Sigh

>
> There are rather large differences in demographics between
> Urban/R&B and AC/Hot AC so thats a hard analogy. Therefore I
> can't completely agree with you. Besides, Thats 4 under
> Urban/R&B and 2 for AC (LiteFM and WPLJ) (Jack is a story to
> itself. 103.9 and WHUD are Westchester stations)

To compare hip hop and urban, two separate formats, you would have to compare CHR and AC or CHR and all the adult hits formats. In any case, nobody would agree on which to compare, as this is a matter of personal taste.
>
>
> > Actually, it is not. 95% of all Americans still listen to
> > radio each week, and this has been unchanged over the last
>
> > several decades. The average American listens to radio
> about
> > 20:15 hours a week, down only 45 total minutes from the
> > average in 1952 before the TV freeze was lifted!
> >
>
> This I haven't heard of, though I find it hard to believe
> most people average 3 hours a day soley on radio.

It is documented on the Arbitron website, and can be demonstrated under various different research methodologies going back over 50 years.

> Whats
> listening too? Leaving the radio on in a room while taking a
> shower?

This is recorded "I was listening to..." radio usage.

> In any case, if that is true, I bet it is more
> office/work penetration then it is home/car.

In-car has never been more than about 30% of radio listening. In home and at work pretty much divide the rest of the listening.

> Given the rate
> of sales of 6 CD changers and mp3 player stereo adapters
> sales, radio numbers have to be down in that area. Great
> info though.

Usage by location has not changed. The same prediction was made when cassettes were put in cars. Did not happen.
>
> >
> > Define "popular." Satellite, all services and all
> channels,
> > can not even "make the book" in rated markets yet, meaning
>
> > it does not get roughly 0.3% of listening.
>
> Of course not. Most satellite radio stations are commercial
> free, so advertising interest would be low. Plus with so
> many channels people rarely stick to one station. It's a
> hard area to rate.

It is no harder than rating commercial or non-commercial radio. All Arbitron has a participant do is write down what they listen to, irrespective of source or commercialization. Radio, satellite, etc.

Here is a bit from Inside Radio about satellite...

"How is satellite radio doing in the real world - like in Pittsburgh?
Keymarket VP/Programming Frank Bell finds that XM and Sirius are mentioned in just 42 of the 3,340 diaries from the Summer Arbitron. And in terms of quarter hours - total satellite usage (1380 quarter hours out of 242,335 for the market) is about 0.5%."

My last count of LA diaries showed even a lower percentage.
>
> Great Reply :)

Thanks. See, it's not a food fight!!! :)
>
 
Re: Sigh

> Hip, hop and r&b is today's new rock.
> Extremely main stream even in the whitest of cities.
>





Jeffrey:

Question, What turns so many of today's White youth onto the even the most gangsta Rap? Most White kids, especially males I've come in contact with listen to rap more than they listen to Alternative Rock.

I do see this different than Black/R&B music of the past generations. From Jazz up to Disco Whites have embraced these types of music. But Hip Hop has the MOST Black sound than any other form of popular music.


I just don't understand why a White kid whether he's from the middle class urban or upper class suburbs consume music that reflects the most negative element of the Balck community.


Thanks,
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin L. Sealy</P>
 
Re: Sigh

What I cannot understand is mostly all Rap music is anti-white, female degrading and portrays the white population as racist, stupid, scared, weak and out of touch with reality. In the days of Soul, Motown, R&B, Jazz and Disco this was to a lesser degree. Why would the white listener embrace this kind of ridicule and persecution, maybe they don't listen to the words or meaning of Rap songs, just the beat, beat, beat, is what counts. I for one think it all sounds the same, just the words and meaning are different. Whereas Country, Rock, Metal and Alternative have different scales and music notes, and never are racist in content. The other day I saw a young white guy singing to a Public Enemy song about kill whitey, rape his women and burn his house, doesn't he get it...go figure.
 
Re: Sigh

I must say you are one smart man.. I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know your radio!!! :)


> >>
> > Though I dont know you I can tell from this board you are
> > fond of quibbling type fights which I have no intention in
>
> > getting in one with you.
>
> This is a discussion, not a fight. When one says, "I will
> not 'fight' with you" it generally means they do not have
> any facts with which to rebut an opposing viewpoint.
>
> > I happen to like a VERY large
> > variety of music. (Considering I personally own well over
> > 25000 songs)
>
> You are very unique. A recent study of iPod owners showed
> that the average was around 300 songs per device, not the
> thousands they can handle. Interestingly, 300 is about the
> average playlist size for most 18 to 50 year old targeted
> radio stations.
>
> Boards like these are frequented by an eclectic group of
> people. Many want to vent their dissatisfaction with radio
> because broadcast radio is not as eclectic as they are. Some
> just want to understand why some of the music they like does
> not get broadcast. And some are nihilists and just want to
> wax bombastic about radio.
>
> Whatever the case, the 95% of Americans who use radio each
> week do not want to hear 1000 or 10,000 or 25,000 songs. In
> fact, each generally has several different stations
> "favorites" and will get the best 300, plus or minues a few,
> of each type of station they cume.
>
> > Because I like variety I hate to see a market saturated
> with
> > one type of format.
>
> One of the errors is to call urban and hip hop formats by
> the same name. An urban station includes r&b, and many hip
> hop stations are very limited in this. There are urban AC
> stations. There are churbans, which are generally not
> targeted specifically at specific ethnic groups (like KIIS
> in LA).
>
> In NY, I see two Black/targeted, mostly hip hop stations,
> Power and Hot. I see tow different flavors of Urban in Kiss
> and WBLS. That is only two choices for each format for
> younger and older, predominantly African Americans, who like
> that kind of format. This is certainly no more saturated
> than AC, where we have a range in NY from soft to hot AC on
> a variety of stations.
>
> After all, the market is about 20% Black.
>
> > In this case its HipHop. If it were
> > Rock, or AC I would say the same thing. Therefore it is
> NOT
> > faithful to the name broadcasting or we would see a
> station
> > dedicated to every format.
>
> You are looking at the "broad" in broadcasting as covering a
> broad range of formats. Station owners, going back 80 years,
> have looked at the "broad" as meaning "broad appeal" and,
> even, "broad sales appeal." So a format does not deserve to
> be exposed on the radio if a lot of potential listeners do
> not exist.
>
> Generally, if a format does not exist in NY, it is because
> the format can not either generate revenue or listeners or
> both.
>
> > Because of this, radio is dying.
>
> Actually, it is not. 95% of all Americans still listen to
> radio each week, and this has been unchanged over the last
> several decades. The average American listens to radio about
> 20:15 hours a week, down only 45 total minutes from the
> average in 1952 before the TV freeze was lifted!
>
> Satellite has a total subscriber base that is less than the
> combined cume of the top 3 stations in NY. Satellite loses 2
> dollars for every dollar in revenue still; most satellite
> installs are in-car which only impacts the roughly 30% of
> terrestrial listening that takes place in cars.
>
> > If it weren't, satellite and internet radio wouldn't be
> half
> > as popular.
>
> Define "popular." Satellite, all services and all channels,
> can not even "make the book" in rated markets yet, meaning
> it does not get roughly 0.3% of listening.
>
 
Re: Sigh

> Whereas Country, Rock, Metal and Alternative
> have different scales and music notes, and never are racist
> in content.

Country music may not be racist, but in the past few years it has sharply turned "redneck" -- where if you don't have a pickup truck, a cowboy hat, and a drinking problem, then you're not cool. Obviously this is not something which metropolitanized Northeasterners can associate with. I love Country music, but I hate all the "redneck" songs which Nashville has been churning out recently. In fact many of these songs blatantly glorify alcoholism and Western-style street justice, the same way that rap/hip-hop tends to glorify drug abuse and inner-city crime.
<P ID="signature">______________
noiboc.jpg

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>
 
Re: Sigh

> This I haven't heard of, though I find it hard to believe
> most people average 3 hours a day soley on radio.

Well, it breaks down like this:

99.95% of the population that listens for 5 minutes

then the 0.05% of we radio geeks who keep the earphones glued on 24/7!!!

(of course, my average time listening to a station averages about 15 seconds before the dial gets turned)

I actually like the recent discussions on here...I think they bring up plenty of good points...

Proud to be in that 0.05%,

Radio-X<P ID="signature">______________
I wasn't born in the south, but I got down here as fast as I could...</P>
 
Internet != Terrestrial by any stretch of the imagination

> In any case, it is illegal. One can, legally and easily, do
> the same thing on an internet stream. But that takes the fun
> out of it.

I hate when people talk about how the same can be done over the Internet, be it with things like K-Rock2 or WCBS's Oldies. People cannot listen to the internet in their cars. People do not have the internet in their bathrooms. Some have corporate filters preventing them from listening in their office or school. Many still use dialup and cannot use internet radio. Still others are infected with spyware and virii so their computers are far too slow to use internet radio (or even the regular internet for that matter).

Once you apply all these filters, it's not difficult to understand why Internet broadcasting cannot and will not be an acceptable alternative to terrestrial radio until availability is widened. That means continuous high-speed internet across the country, or at the very least most of it. Wirelessly, perhaps by cell phone providers, who would then need to improve coverage in rural areas like mine where service is spottier than my friend's dalmatians.

Ownership of radios capable of tuning FM (I heard something like 800 million from the FCC a while back) likely far outnumbers the amount of computers and availability of the Internet at this time.

- Trip<P ID="signature">______________
Visit my website, www.rabbitears.info! It's eventually going to be your one resource for television info! Digital television, histories, and technical information for the entire USA from one source!</P>
 
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