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NYT article on HD Radio

"Local Radio Is Cutting the Static and Going Digital, Finally"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/automobiles/25RADIO.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles&oref=slogin

Just like the recent USA Today's article on HD Radio - another HD Radio shill spot ! What, is iBiquity paying major newspapers to run advertising for them ?

For you techno guys:

"The sound improves over a conventional AM station by delivering a better dynamic range — the difference between quiet and loud sounds. In addition, HD is better at reproducing the high notes of music: HD is capable of highs up to 15 KHz, compared with the current top end for analog AM of 10 KHz, making it sound as good as a traditional FM station. Better yet, HD FM stations can deliver audio that is nearly as good as a CD in quality, with a frequency response of up to 20 KHz, comparable to satellite radio."

True, or not ?
 
PocketRadio said:
"Local Radio Is Cutting the Static and Going Digital, Finally"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/automobiles/25RADIO.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles&oref=slogin

Just like the recent USA Today's article on HD Radio - another HD Radio shill spot ! What, is iBiquity paying major newspapers to run advertising for them ?

For you techno guys:

"The sound improves over a conventional AM station by delivering a better dynamic range — the difference between quiet and loud sounds. In addition, HD is better at reproducing the high notes of music: HD is capable of highs up to 15 KHz, compared with the current top end for analog AM of 10 KHz, making it sound as good as a traditional FM station. Better yet, HD FM stations can deliver audio that is nearly as good as a CD in quality, with a frequency response of up to 20 KHz, comparable to satellite radio."

True, or not ?

OK, I'll bite...

I'd say "True," at least within reason. If you are within range of a HD transmitter it is capable of sounding better than what is currently being broadcast on either AM of FM. What I've heard sounds good. That begs the question if analog radio could be made to sound better. My answer is a resounding “yes.” But that is not the direction the broadcast industry is taking.

The article says HD can sound “comparable to satellite.” It is questionable if Satellite radio is a good example of the ultimate in fidelity. I'm not sure why they choose to make that a benchmark. From my vantage point (as a subscriber) XM and Sirius sound somewhere between "Acceptable" and "Good." It depends on the channel and the amount of compression being used at the time. You'll notice I didn't say "CD Quality." The real selling point of satellite is the variety of channels that can be received anywhere you drive. Quantity almost always wins out over quality. That's why we eat Big Macs and have them "Super-sized."

Back to your article: What they don't mention is what might make some people think. Like most things, HD has advantages and disadvantages. From my point of view, I believe we could have done better. For others, it is nirvana. It just depends on your point of reference.
 
PocketRadio said:
Just like the recent USA Today's article on HD Radio - another HD Radio shill spot ! What, is iBiquity paying major newspapers to run advertising for them ?
I wouldnt doubt it!
 
Of course analog radio could have been made to sound better. It DOES sound better with expensive tuners like Magnum Dynalab, Fanfare, and some classic models. But it's a digital world. And "sounds better" is only one of the advantages. What HD reminds me of (I mean good, 96kbps HD) is a VERY expensive analog tuner...the clarity, and jet-black background...only HD has a more open high end because there's no need to clip highs to prevent overmodulation.

Now we COULD have further investigated (as with FMX...now that worked out great) a method to compress the L-R component during transmission, expanding it by a reciprocal amount in the receiver. This could have given noise levels in the range of digital....think dbx. But research in the 80s showed that this type of tweaking of L-R increased multipath problems tremendously (Bose's REAL technical contribution to the electronics world was proving that FMX was going to cause BIG problems). But perhaps there's a better way.

A narrowband FM technique used within the AM band called "NFR" (noise-free radio) was demonstrated to work very well during the 80s. There was a lengthy series of articles in Radio World about it at the time (it was as "noise-free" as analog fm mono, and with the same frequency response, but was mono only...at least in that stage of development). So yes...there could have been BIG improvements in the sound of both FM AND AM analog radio. But time has marched on, and rightly or wrongly outside of small, tweaky high-end companies, nobody is researching new analog technology anymore. It's a digital world!
 
The Dude said:
PocketRadio said:
Just like the recent USA Today's article on HD Radio - another HD Radio shill spot ! What, is iBiquity paying major newspapers to run advertising for them ?
I wouldnt doubt it!

This is an excellent response to the NYT article from the Radio Blog:

New York Times Covers IB(A)C

http://theradioblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/new-york-times-covers-ibac.html

It is good to see, that HD Radio is being exposed for what it is - seems as though, analog is just fine with folks !
 
I won't be as hard on you as I'd planned, because perhaps you don't know that point by point the "response" is wrong. There ARE major manufacturers (Kenwood, Polk, Cambridge Soundworks, JVC, Sangean (one of the world's largest radio manufacturers, and the actual maker of LOTS of radios with other brand names), Accurian (the house brand of a little chain named Radio Shack...most would consider THAT "major"), etc.

As for the "same old crappy programming" well this reveals two things. One...the blogger doesn't like terrestrial radio. Hundreds of millions disagree...and vote with their pushbuttons each and every day. If YOU also don't like terrestrial radio, please don't waste our time here. It's a forum discussing terrestrial radio's future. That addresses "crappy", as for programming...HD offers MANY new options in most markets, with more coming.

HD offers better quality NOW...the full 96db dynamic range of cd, improved immunity to multipath and other types of interference, as well as the previously mentioned extra channels. And both quality AND variety are set to improve with expanded hybrid mode...which increases available bandwidth per station by FIFTY PERCENT. We're at the BEGINNING of HD. It's capable of lots more (quality, programming services, and other perks such as datacasting, etc.)

The steps were 1)-create the infrastructure...THOUSANDS OF STATIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY. Done! 2)-create the consumer products...the radios...to receive the new services...this started less than a year ago, but is moving right along...nearly fifty HD products so far. And 3)-expand available services beyond the "rollout" mode, and inprove quality and reliability at both ends of the chain. Also in progress. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

There is always a very vocal minority who scream that new technology is "flawed", "not necessary", or "doesn't really offer any advantages". Perhaps you're not old enough to realize there are ALWAYS people like that blogger. I am. And it's tiresome. LPs are better than cds, 78s better than lps, tubes better than solid state, wire better than tape, analog ANYTHING better than digital, an abacas better than a Quad-Core speed demon. WHATEVER! If you want to believe the world is flat, be my guest. Many believe the Earth is 5,000 years old, people and dinosaurs co-existed, and that other primates bear no resemblance to us. I didn't say many SMART people believed those things, but still...
 
PocketRadio said:
The Dude said:
PocketRadio said:
Just like the recent USA Today's article on HD Radio - another HD Radio shill spot ! What, is iBiquity paying major newspapers to run advertising for them ?
I wouldnt doubt it!

This is an excellent response to the NYT article from the Radio Blog:

New York Times Covers IB(A)C

http://theradioblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/new-york-times-covers-ibac.html

It is good to see, that HD Radio is being exposed for what it is - seems as though, analog is just fine with folks !

Hey, thanks for the mention! I haven't visited this section very often... I just might have to start checking in more often.

Mike, I'd challenge your statements on a number of things. Firstly, I may be wrong about manufacturers making the products, but they certainly aren't marketing them. I keep a pretty close eye on the industry, and if they're making HD radios and I haven't heard about it, that's saying something... most notably and especially saying that the average consumer most certainly hasn't heard about it. In addition, even the CEO of iBiquity doesn't expect them to sell very well in a reasonable time frame (according to a recent interview... I'd have to search for the link, I'll post it later if I have time), and since he's made that statement, one must realize that no one is listening, and no one will be listening for quite some time, if ever.

Secondly, I love traditional radio (I don't use the term "terrestrial" as it's come to be used because Internet radio is just as terrestrial as over-the-air broadcast radio is... perhaps more when you figure that most of the lines the Internet runs over are buried under ground). But that comes with a caveat: I love traditional radio when it's programmed well. The fact of the matter is that programming has become so boring and generic today that the majority of traditional radio stations across the country are dull and un-engaging. If I can't trust the people who program analogue traditional radio to bring me entertaining listening material, why in the world would I trust those same people to bring me anything better on an HD stream? It's that simple. HD doesn't solve programming problems, it only presents more.

Thirdly, HD doesn't offer better quality. I've heard more samples than I can handle... none of them are up to par. And yes, I've heard the arguments about dueling codecs with online samples and all the arguments about processing and such... the fact of the matter is the technology just doesn't live up to what anyone expected of it. In addition, if the digital portion of a signal doesn't extend any further than around one-third of the distance the analogue signal reaches, what good is it? Only one-third of the analogue audience will be able to hear the digital transmissions... I would not consider that to be better than analogue. And don't even try feeding me the "once we get out of hybrid mode" bullcrap. Interference and nature are interference and nature. It won't change for the better just because you're throwing more digital hash into the airwaves. If anything, that will only make the problem worse.

Fourth, the steps of the plan simply don't matter. You can go on quoting the plan and progress to me all day long... it doesn't mean a thing. What matters is public acceptance, and that simply isn't there, nor will it be. Given the problems that are inherent to the technology, consumers will simply form the opinion that the older, analogue technology worked better (and they'd be right); and that would be in addition to the opinion they'll form about the programming (the same as what I laid out above). You're right, I ain't seen nothin' yet... nor will I. Nor will you. It just isn't going to happen. Not the way you expect it to. By the way, there are only about 1,200 stations broadcasting in HD. That's just over a thousand. That's hardly the "thousands" figure you claim.

When you say "vocal minority," just who are you referring to? The truth of the matter is that the radio industry and iBiquity are the minority. They're forcing this new technology on a listening audience who are, as you point out, quite content with what's out there now (though I and TSL numbers beg to differ). The consumers, with literally millions and millions of analogue radios already in their homes, are in the majority. You don't hear them yelling from the rooftops that HD is the wave of the future. They're more concerned with Internet radio (a technology which continuously boasts increasing TSL and cume numbers) and their iPods. I may be in the minority because I'm vocal, but I'm in the majority when it comes to people who see HD for what it is.

I don't dislike anything for being new, nor do I dislike anything for being digital. If it were some other form of digital broadcasting we were discussing, my opinion would likely be flipped 180 degrees. I'd love to see CAM-D and FMeXtra put in place instead of HD, as those technologies actually work the way they're supposed to and don't cause the interference to adjacent stations that HD does. I also see Internet radio becoming the prominent digital radio medium (which is happening as we speak). Those are new technologies, they're digital, and I'm all for them. I'm not the average "older is better" proclaimer. However, I'm against anything that is as damaging and technologically unsound as HD is. That's both the engineer and the radio lover in me.

I appreciate the insult to my intelligence. Makes me feel like the mature one in the argument.
 
How much "marketing" have you seen of other radio tuners? Seen any national TV ads for ANALOG radios from Tivoli, Cambridge Soundworks, or basically ANYONE but Bose? And they seem to be selling well.

Check that...have you seen ANY advertising for ANY product lately paid for by JVC, Kenwood, Sangean, Cambridge Soundworks, etc? Come on...the advertising is being done by Ibiquity...and hopefully will extend beyond their stations (to TV, print, direct mail, etc). Yes I know radio is the best advertising medium, but ALL advertising works better if you spread it around. Kind of like manure ;)
 
Josh C.

You basically said what alot of people on this board has been trying to say... we'll see how you get attacked.... :eek:

JVC, Sony, Pioneer, Marantz, etc. all the major names in HOME electronics are NOT making HD radios, JVC only makes a car radio, and you have to buy the HD module to boot.... hardly any interest to the home audio enthusiast... so having all those spots on the radio for HD is worthless as most people are not going to replace their car's tuners to pick up HD noise... so why would the average home listener going to be convinced to buythe home HD radios... the only people buying them are those that either are into radio based interests (broadcast types) and geeks wanting to see what the new babble is about regarding the 'new technology' in radio....

I don't know about anyone here but Radio Shack's monthly circular had the IPOD and Satelite radios as their front page... and thoughout the circular there was not one single article or mention about HD radio... maybe HDTV.... and millions get this circular.... So if Radio Shack doen't think HD is front page, middle page, or back page material... what does that say about this FANTASTIC new medium?

Spare everyone the rant about HD being new... it's been around already for 2 years... Ipods and MP3 players have been around about as long and they've sold probably 1/2 trillion units if not more and at prices sometimes higher than the HD radios... now they are dropping somewhat.... to where the consumer can buy these gadgets for 50 bucks....

So you see all those that believe the general masses are craving for HD are sure misinformed.... ???

Radiopilot
 
Josh C. said:
PocketRadio said:
The Dude said:
PocketRadio said:
Just like the recent USA Today's article on HD Radio - another HD Radio shill spot ! What, is iBiquity paying major newspapers to run advertising for them ?
I wouldnt doubt it!

This is an excellent response to the NYT article from the Radio Blog:

New York Times Covers IB(A)C

http://theradioblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/new-york-times-covers-ibac.html

It is good to see, that HD Radio is being exposed for what it is - seems as though, analog is just fine with folks !

Hey, thanks for the mention! I haven't visited this section very often... I just might have to start checking in more often.

Mike, I'd challenge your statements on a number of things. Firstly, I may be wrong about manufacturers making the products, but they certainly aren't marketing them. I keep a pretty close eye on the industry, and if they're making HD radios and I haven't heard about it, that's saying something... most notably and especially saying that the average consumer most certainly hasn't heard about it. In addition, even the CEO of iBiquity doesn't expect them to sell very well in a reasonable time frame (according to a recent interview... I'd have to search for the link, I'll post it later if I have time), and since he's made that statement, one must realize that no one is listening, and no one will be listening for quite some time, if ever.

Secondly, I love traditional radio (I don't use the term "terrestrial" as it's come to be used because Internet radio is just as terrestrial as over-the-air broadcast radio is... perhaps more when you figure that most of the lines the Internet runs over are buried under ground). But that comes with a caveat: I love traditional radio when it's programmed well. The fact of the matter is that programming has become so boring and generic today that the majority of traditional radio stations across the country are dull and un-engaging. If I can't trust the people who program analogue traditional radio to bring me entertaining listening material, why in the world would I trust those same people to bring me anything better on an HD stream? It's that simple. HD doesn't solve programming problems, it only presents more.

Thirdly, HD doesn't offer better quality. I've heard more samples than I can handle... none of them are up to par. And yes, I've heard the arguments about dueling codecs with online samples and all the arguments about processing and such... the fact of the matter is the technology just doesn't live up to what anyone expected of it. In addition, if the digital portion of a signal doesn't extend any further than around one-third of the distance the analogue signal reaches, what good is it? Only one-third of the analogue audience will be able to hear the digital transmissions... I would not consider that to be better than analogue. And don't even try feeding me the "once we get out of hybrid mode" bullcrap. Interference and nature are interference and nature. It won't change for the better just because you're throwing more digital hash into the airwaves. If anything, that will only make the problem worse.

Fourth, the steps of the plan simply don't matter. You can go on quoting the plan and progress to me all day long... it doesn't mean a thing. What matters is public acceptance, and that simply isn't there, nor will it be. Given the problems that are inherent to the technology, consumers will simply form the opinion that the older, analogue technology worked better (and they'd be right); and that would be in addition to the opinion they'll form about the programming (the same as what I laid out above). You're right, I ain't seen nothin' yet... nor will I. Nor will you. It just isn't going to happen. Not the way you expect it to. By the way, there are only about 1,200 stations broadcasting in HD. That's just over a thousand. That's hardly the "thousands" figure you claim.

When you say "vocal minority," just who are you referring to? The truth of the matter is that the radio industry and iBiquity are the minority. They're forcing this new technology on a listening audience who are, as you point out, quite content with what's out there now (though I and TSL numbers beg to differ). The consumers, with literally millions and millions of analogue radios already in their homes, are in the majority. You don't hear them yelling from the rooftops that HD is the wave of the future. They're more concerned with Internet radio (a technology which continuously boasts increasing TSL and cume numbers) and their iPods. I may be in the minority because I'm vocal, but I'm in the majority when it comes to people who see HD for what it is.

I don't dislike anything for being new, nor do I dislike anything for being digital. If it were some other form of digital broadcasting we were discussing, my opinion would likely be flipped 180 degrees. I'd love to see CAM-D and FMeXtra put in place instead of HD, as those technologies actually work the way they're supposed to and don't cause the interference to adjacent stations that HD does. I also see Internet radio becoming the prominent digital radio medium (which is happening as we speak). Those are new technologies, they're digital, and I'm all for them. I'm not the average "older is better" proclaimer. However, I'm against anything that is as damaging and technologically unsound as HD is. That's both the engineer and the radio lover in me.

I appreciate the insult to my intelligence. Makes me feel like the mature one in the argument.

OK, this is the one that the Anti-HD camp LOVES to bring up. Consumers aren't "begging" for HD, or consumers aren't "interested" in HD. The point is consumers weren't interested in CD's, iPods, or satellite radio when they were introduced, either.

Second, TSL of analog radio has actually stayed static over the past 10 years. It's true.

Third, while the audio quality of HD may not meet your expectations, it's better than satellite radio, and lower bit-rate MP3's, and those things don't seem to matter to consumers.

Bottom line is this: Your article is basically "I don't like HD radio, therefore no one else should." Fine, as long as everyone is clear that it's your opinion, and nothing more. I have yet to meet a person who has the authority to speak for the entire American population, yet HD opponents love to cite their opinion of "nobody wants it."

Just because people aren't busting down the doors to get an HD Radio doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. I don't own an HDTV yet (I'm not that interested in it), but my next TV purchase? Sure - why not?
 
So you see all those that believe the general masses are craving for HD are sure misinformed....

Radiopilot


HUH? The JVC has HD built in.......What's this mis-inform thing? I got a new Crutchfield flyer today..mention of HD on the front!.........
One thing that I have noticed in this forum is that most of the anti-HD bunch can't get their S--T right, I guess because they just mooch off each other's intelect. Sorry, BUT I have the JVC in question AND the RS HD and I love them both, NO problems with either!!!! ???
 
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