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October Nielsens

Interesting that apparently most folks would jump ship due to even a brief break.

Actually that part is not true. "Most folks," and by that I mean over 90%, don't change the station at all during the spots. So you are in a small minority.

Even in your case, you may switch away during the break, but you do come back. That's also what the research shows.

The only revenue source for radio is commercials. They don't get subscription money. Would you prefer giving big radio companies your credit card number? Have a chunk of money auto-deducted every month? Be forced to type in a user name and password every time you listen? That's the choice. Some people are fine with that.
 
Actually that part is not true. "Most folks," and by that I mean over 90%, don't change the station at all during the spots. So you are in a small minority.
In fact, when precise PPM data is coupled with a station's music test, we find that songs that "stiffed out" since a prior test will lose more audience than a commercial break. Listeners expect commercials. They do not expect songs they dislike and will tune those out almost instantly if they are within reach of the radio, such as in a car or using a desktop radio at work.
 
Those comments, to me, are fascinating... and seems to confirm what I perceived. So, relative to ratings and revenue (whether believed to have a high correlation to each other, or not), how/why did the two (typically longer) breaks per hour come about?
It all has to do with the way audience is measured. The 2-break hour is designed for the way the PPM measures minute by minute, and attempts to avoid any preventable tune out interruption. Those breaks should straddle the quarter hour boundaries.

However, in the diary markets there is evidence determined by research that the "old" system of putting the break inside each quarter hour at around 7, 22, 37 and 42, works best. But for some reason, stations outside the top 50 that still have diary based surveys adopted a methodology that is not appropriate for those markets.
For me, when I'm hit with what I expect to be one of these awful lengthy breaks, I'm gone. And if it's the first thing I hear when turning the set on, I'm gone even more quickly. I'd have to guess that is not the case with most listeners(???)... otherwise, it'd be foolish, no? I am far more likely to suffer two 30 second commercials every three or four sings, than five minutes worth a coupla times an hour. Assuming the radio brain trust believes that longer & less frequent commercials translate into more money in the long run(?).
It's not about money. It's about the fact that a percentage of listeners will leave instantly each time a stopset begins. If you have fewer stops, there are fewer chances for those listeners to leave. However, that is short-time-period thinking and one has to weigh that against the desire to have listeners spend more time overall with the station.

Because there are so many variables involved, every PD will have a slightly different theory and philosophy.
 
They do not expect songs they dislike and will tune those out almost instantly if they are within reach of the radio, such as in a car or using a desktop radio at work.

This is the radio equivalent of people walking out of concerts. Tell this to an artist and they'll freak out. We had a new song that was almost universally panned when it was released a couple months ago. We then saw fan video shot at the artist's shows where people were walking out of the concert when the song was played. You could see the look of horror on the artist's face as he saw the reaction. The label pulled the song and replaced it this week.
 
Dave Eduardo said:
It all has to do with the way audience is measured. The 2-break hour is designed for the way the PPM measures minute by minute, and attempts to avoid any preventable tune out interruption. Those breaks should straddle the quarter hour boundaries.

However, in the diary markets there is evidence determined by research that the "old" system of putting the break inside each quarter hour at around 7, 22, 37 and 42, works best. But for some reason, stations outside the top 50 that still have diary based surveys adopted a methodology that is not appropriate for those markets.


One of the better threads on the entire Radio Discussions site. Very much interested in the research that pointed to a difference between spot cluster placement in PPM markets and Diary markets. BTW, did you mean "7, 22, 37 and 49" rather than "42?"

A few years ago Q-107 Toronto went to limited length spot breaks, but more breaks per hour in order to reduce the length of the commercial breaks. Apparently they modified that approach after a year because it didn't yield the hoped for results, although I believe at last listen, it sounds as if Q-107 now posts three moderately stocked breaks per hour rather than two fully stocked breaks. [Correct the observation if it's incorrect.] Toronto is a highly competitive PPM market with government administered audience measurement.
 
Actually that part is not true. "Most folks," and by that I mean over 90%, don't change the station at all during the spots. So you are in a small minority.

Even in your case, you may switch away during the break, but you do come back. That's also what the research shows.

The only revenue source for radio is commercials. They don't get subscription money. Would you prefer giving big radio companies your credit card number? Have a chunk of money auto-deducted every month? Be forced to type in a user name and password every time you listen? That's the choice. Some people are fine with that.
Just as clarification, I would not be prone to abandoning if I was confident that the breaks would be relatively short )say, 45 - 60 seconds... or probably even 90 seconds). It's the recognition that I'm gonna be pelted with pitches for 5 to 10 minutes that turns me off and I bolt.

As far as returning... sure at some point I would return. But only when I tired of whatever alternative I chose... and that may or may not be radio. Real life case of interest... it is that exact scenario that has led me from being a 90%+/- WYRK listener to a 10%+/- listener. Even when the new guys opened their doors, I didn't immediately change listening habits. But, when the big bad ( :) ) commercial things came on, I'd "sample" (so-to-speak) the new guys. I found that the music was similar enough... and - importantly - I found that the pattern of their programming was more to my liking. From some others that I know who have "switched", I think the path was roughly the same. Now, had the breaks been shorter, I probably would not have "sampled" as much (if at all)... and probably would not have found the new guys to be quite as preferable (to me).

Subscription radio is a whole other conversation (IMO). LOL
 
Just as clarification, I would not be prone to abandoning if I was confident that the breaks would be relatively short )say, 45 - 60 seconds... or probably even 90 seconds).

Everybody is different. The research we see isn't based on what people say, but what people do.

If we could get paid and keep the lights on some other way, we'd all jump on it in a minute. So far, no one has a better option.
 
One thing absent from this discussion is the lack of quality production these days. Most spots sound like boilerplate. Truly creative commercial production that's both entertaining and informative is missing these days. The audio quality of some of the commercials downloaded from agencies and networks can be appalling. More and more corporate stations are relying on production hubs that crank out volume, not quality. The days of the Radio Ranch are long gone.
 
One thing absent from this discussion is the lack of quality production these days. Most spots sound like boilerplate. Truly creative commercial production that's both entertaining and informative is missing these days. The audio quality of some of the commercials downloaded from agencies and networks can be appalling. More and more corporate stations are relying on production hubs that crank out volume, not quality. The days of the Radio Ranch are long gone.
I agree totally. While the other end of the spectrum is the used car dealer who does his own spots, stopsets are tedious because spots are not entertaining. The catchy jingle, the use of humor, the highlighting of useful information has been replaced with often uncreative hard sells.
 
Just as clarification, I would not be prone to abandoning if I was confident that the breaks would be relatively short )say, 45 - 60 seconds... or probably even 90 seconds). It's the recognition that I'm gonna be pelted with pitches for 5 to 10 minutes that turns me off and I bolt.
That would mean a break after every song... song, spot, song, spot, song, spot. And if 30's and 15's are sold, song, spot, spot, song, spot, spot, spot, song and so on.

Remember, formatics is related to how ratings are done. When WABC went to Top 40... even when KHJ did the same... measurement was done by The Pulse and Hooper, using variants of 24 hour aided recall on the phone or in person. Arbitron changed this, and when they became dominant in the early 70's the ratings were done over a 7-day period using a written log of listening. That changed formatics as stations figured out how to get the best results.
 
More and more corporate stations are relying on production hubs that crank out volume, not quality. The days of the Radio Ranch are long gone.

Assuming here that all spot production is done in house. I find the most annoying spots are produced by outside agencies.

Commercials are quite often team productions, with a lot of people in the kitchen. It's hard to generalize about quality when the range of the cooks can vary from spot to spot. It's also rare that the commercials you hear are being made strictly for broadcast radio.
 
One of the better threads on the entire Radio Discussions site. Very much interested in the research that pointed to a difference between spot cluster placement in PPM markets and Diary markets.
The research I know of best is proprietary, and done when the PPM was being tested in Houston for several years before the metered measurements went live. At the time, I was running SIP, the in-house research division of HBC (and, later, UVN) and we discovered a number of elements that separated both ratings and programming between the two systems which ran parallel for several years.

One example is that morning shows that did bits that transcended more than one quarter hour did less well in the PPM. Perceptual research showed that listeners, indeed, spent less time with a station than seemed to be true in the diary system. So a long bit would either find listeners tuning in half-way through, unable to catch up, or they would get to work or get back from dropping off the kids and, also, unable to hear the whole bit.

It is funny ("funny" peculiar, not "funny" ha ha) that we saw this in the pre-diary days when Doctor Don on KFRC or Robert W. on KHJ did few if any bits that were not "instantly gratifying". The PPM pointed out that such practices worked best. And, of course, some pointed to Stern as an example of long bits... but Stern got long TSL and very limited cume.

In the comparisons with diary and PPM, including many treks to Columbia to look at diaries, we saw that the PPM gave more chances to tune out if a station stopped down more times an hour. Because we saw that the average PPM listening span was on the average around 15 minutes, and the PPM allowed non-consecutive minutes in a quarter hour to be counted, fewer stops were better. After all, few users spent long continuous times listening.

After discussing some findings with Arbitron folks, I was at a client conference once the PPM went "live". They used an example of a well performing station that had, in a particular day, over 25 quarter hours of listening. Nearly none of those was consecutive, though. The Arbitron presenter theorized that the person listened a bit in the kitchen over coffee. Then a bit in the car. Then when they got to work; there they had interruptions like phone calls, meetings, bathroom and coffee breaks, trips to the copy machine or warehouse... or comparable interruptions if the metered person was a delivery driver, an auto mechanic or whatever.

The amusing thing was that the station used as an example was one I created the formatics and structure for, KBRG in San Francisco!

The effectiveness of other tactics, such as how contests should develop same-day return listening as well as horizontal daily cuming, can't be proven. But stations that focused on the PPM findings did better.
BTW, did you mean "7, 22, 37 and 49" rather than "42?"
Yep, one of my too-manty-to-count typos.
A few years ago Q-107 Toronto went to limited length spot breaks, but more breaks per hour in order to reduce the length of the commercial breaks. Apparently they modified that approach after a year because it didn't yield the hoped for results, although I believe at last listen, it sounds as if Q-107 now posts three moderately stocked breaks per hour rather than two fully stocked breaks. [Correct the observation if it's incorrect.] Toronto is a highly competitive PPM market with government administered audience measurement.
The government does not administer the ratings... the old BBM, now Numeris, is broadcaster owned. They use the PPM in larger markets, and like the US, the diary in smaller ones.

They employ the same technology but have their own recruitment system and administration that is not from Nielsen. One very important thing they do that Nielsen does not do is to have a "minor league" team of metered households. These are folks with meters who go through all the step but are not "in-tab" for the real ratings. They are trained, and ready if another household drops out or ends their eligibility and enter instantly, keeping the sample highly proportional and representative always.

 
That would mean a break after every song... song, spot, song, spot, song, spot. And if 30's and 15's are sold, song, spot, spot, song, spot, spot, spot, song and so on.

Remember, formatics is related to how ratings are done. When WABC went to Top 40... even when KHJ did the same... measurement was done by The Pulse and Hooper, using variants of 24 hour aided recall on the phone or in person. Arbitron changed this, and when they became dominant in the early 70's the ratings were done over a 7-day period using a written log of listening. That changed formatics as stations figured out how to get the best results.
Yeah. I see. Clearly, among the many reasons I did not mesh with a radio career. LOL Still, I can't help but believe that people abandoning as soon as a commercial comes on is due to their belief that whatever will come after the commercial(s) is not worth remaining... and, subordinately, that the commercials themselves are not adequately satisfying in some way.
 
I can't help but believe that people abandoning as soon as a commercial comes on is due to their belief that whatever will come after the commercial(s) is not worth remaining..

You can believe whatever you want to believe, but that's not in fact what they do.
 
You can believe whatever you want to believe, but that's not in fact what they do.
Sincerely unclear about your comment.

Post #43 (above) states; "...a percentage of listeners will leave instantly each time a stopset begins." Is your comment suggesting that is not accurate?... Listeners do not leave at the onset of commercials? Or is it agreeing that listeners leave at the onset of commercials irrespective of what they believe will follow the commercials? If it's the latter, that seems throw silliness at the teasers that (many times) precede commercials (Stay tuned for a major concert announcement that you won't want to miss, or; Your chance to win a million bucks following these words from Super Duper Markets! :) )
 
Actually that part is not true. "Most folks," and by that I mean over 90%, don't change the station at all during the spots. So you are in a small minority.

Even in your case, you may switch away during the break, but you do come back. That's also what the research shows.

The only revenue source for radio is commercials. They don't get subscription money. Would you prefer giving big radio companies your credit card number? Have a chunk of money auto-deducted every month? Be forced to type in a user name and password every time you listen? That's the choice. Some people are fine with that.
Everyone isn't in a position to turn off the station during every spot break. Working on cars at an oil change shop? You can't stop and change the station.
 
Dave Eduardo said:
In the comparisons with diary and PPM, including many treks to Columbia to look at diaries, we saw that the PPM gave more chances to tune out if a station stopped down more times an hour. Because we saw that the average PPM listening span was on the average around 15 minutes, and the PPM allowed non-consecutive minutes in a quarter hour to be counted, fewer stops were better. After all, few users spent long continuous times listening.
Most interesting! As such, it appears the PPM is a more accurate tool for tracking when listeners "enter and exit the store," and because the PPM methodology allowed for non-consecutive minutes, two stopsets per clock hour maximized ratings performance; whereas the diary requires five consecutive (clustered) minutes within a quarter hour in order to for a station to be given credit for a whole quarter hour of listening.
David Eduardo said:
However, in the diary markets there is evidence determined by research that the "old" system of putting the break inside each quarter hour at around 7, 22, 37 and 42 (sic), works best. But for some reason, stations outside the top 50 that still have diary based surveys adopted a methodology that is not appropriate for those markets.
Equally interesting! Based on the results of your research, would you as a consultant recommend stations (in certain music formats) in diary markets such as Buffalo and Rochester, revert to placing commercial breaks at those points in the hour, perhaps modifying or eliminating one of the stopsets to allow for a longer music sweep, for example, placing the commercial breaks at 07, 22 and 49?
 
Everyone isn't in a position to turn off the station during every spot break. Working on cars at an oil change shop? You can't stop and change the station.

Exactly. For most people, radio is on in the background. They don't give it undivided attention. And as we've said, some people may switch out to avoid spots, just as some will switch out for a song they don't like, or some will switch out for a story they don't like, or some will switch out because they've arrived at their destination, or because it's time to eat, or any number of reasons. But almost always they will return at some point, because it's what they do. There may be no reason at all or any thought given to what they're doing or why they're doing it.
 
The paper diary breaks I was taught was the middle five minutes of each quarter hour. We always tried for fewer than 4 breaks an hour. Since the greater number of listeners were tuned in from :00 to :15 past, this was the break used only if we had to. If we could get by with two breaks, the :35 break was eliminated because it was the second most listened to quarter hour. The :15 to :30 was third in total listeners and the break we always filled was the least listened to quarter hour from :45 to :00. That's where we placed news as well.

The objective was to be in music for the final 5 minutes of the quarter hour and keep them listening through at least the first five minutes of the next quarter hour. For those few that would turn away, we programmed to try to get them back in hopes we coud double their number of paper with 8 five minute listening segments in the 4 quarter hours. A listener was credited for 5 consecutive minutes in a quarter hour.
 
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