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Re: Why not add Froggy 95 in J-Town & Froggy 98 in Altoona, Realist???

In the abstract, "biggest gain" is a meaningless set. Suppose WEAE had one listener. If they gained two more, their gain would be 200%. They'd still suck wind with three listeners, but their gain would exceed WDVE's. Point is, giving us the biggest gain in the abstract means very little, and such generalizations ought to be refined against the light of proper context.

A lightbulb doubled up is still a lightbulb relative to powerhouses.


>
>
> I just added up the numbers to see who posted the biggest
> gains and who posted the biggest losses. Nothing more.
> Nothing less. Make of them what you will.
>
 
Re: Why not add Froggy 95 in J-Town & Froggy 98 in Altoona, Realist???

I won't dispute that. However, the if all the Froggies reported in Pittsburgh were taken as one single entity, they were big enough to be number 4. That's not a ranking to sneeze at. And, given that the number three station was also a country station, for one country station to lose and the country "network" of stations gain indicates that maybe some country music fans are switching from one station to the other(s).

> In the abstract, "biggest gain" is a meaningless set.
> Suppose WEAE had one listener. If they gained two more,
> their gain would be 200%. They'd still suck wind with three
> listeners, but their gain would exceed WDVE's. Point is,
> giving us the biggest gain in the abstract means very
> little, and such generalizations ought to be refined against
> the light of proper context.
>
> A lightbulb doubled up is still a lightbulb relative to
> powerhouses.
>
>
> >
> >
> > I just added up the numbers to see who posted the biggest
> > gains and who posted the biggest losses. Nothing more.
> > Nothing less. Make of them what you will.
> >
>
 
> > You have to wonder what the corporate suits at Clear Channel
> are thinking about the performance of their people in
> Pittsburgh. They did an outstanding job of building up WDVE,
> but at the same time half of their stations decreased in
> ratings, and one of them remained unchanged.
>
> Since ratings points are not directly convertible to billing
> dollars, I can't know if Clear Channel's management is
> celebrating over WDVE's success, or lamenting over the
> group's overall loss. Maybe they're doing both.
>
> Wouldn't it be ironic if someone in charge at Clear Channel
> got the axe because the entire group lost ground even while
> their flagship hit #1?

The mantra inside the flashcube is always "protect the mothership." That's why, for instance, 970 didn't have a morning show until Tunch and Wolf were willing to buy the time; Romano and Co. figured that there was plenty of sports content in the DVE morning show. It's also why 104.7 was allowed to languish as an urban AC for so long before the idea for News Talk 104-7 was hatched.. all the musical holes they could identify in the market would hurt DVE so they never happened.

That being said, 3WS and Kiss just had PD changes. Most of the net loss was on 3WS, and I think they only care about 18-34s on the X, so the 12+ numbers may or may not be relevant. So I doubt anyone's in jeopardy at this point.

Same sort of discussion applies to the post-Stern prospects for K-Rock. Howard's debut earned them the #5 spot 25-54 this book. How far those numbers fall off will determine the future of the format.<P ID="signature">______________
"With God as my witness, I could have sworn turkeys could fly."</P>
 
And, BTW, somebody at CC looks like a visionary because their strategy worked perfectly: Put talk on FM so it kicks KDKA hard and allows WDVE to become No. 1 overall. 104.7 has not only taken listeners away from KDKA, it's also grabbed them from the limited younger demos that KD had.




> > > You have to wonder what the corporate suits at Clear
> Channel
> > are thinking about the performance of their people in
> > Pittsburgh. They did an outstanding job of building up
> WDVE,
> > but at the same time half of their stations decreased in
> > ratings, and one of them remained unchanged.
> >
> > Since ratings points are not directly convertible to
> billing
> > dollars, I can't know if Clear Channel's management is
> > celebrating over WDVE's success, or lamenting over the
> > group's overall loss. Maybe they're doing both.
> >
> > Wouldn't it be ironic if someone in charge at Clear
> Channel
> > got the axe because the entire group lost ground even
> while
> > their flagship hit #1?
>
> The mantra inside the flashcube is always "protect the
> mothership." That's why, for instance, 970 didn't have a
> morning show until Tunch and Wolf were willing to buy the
> time; Romano and Co. figured that there was plenty of sports
> content in the DVE morning show. It's also why 104.7 was
> allowed to languish as an urban AC for so long before the
> idea for News Talk 104-7 was hatched.. all the musical holes
> they could identify in the market would hurt DVE so they
> never happened.
>
> That being said, 3WS and Kiss just had PD changes. Most of
> the net loss was on 3WS, and I think they only care about
> 18-34s on the X, so the 12+ numbers may or may not be
> relevant. So I doubt anyone's in jeopardy at this point.
>
> Same sort of discussion applies to the post-Stern prospects
> for K-Rock. Howard's debut earned them the #5 spot 25-54
> this book. How far those numbers fall off will determine the
> future of the format.
>
 
> And, BTW, somebody at CC looks like a visionary because
> their strategy worked perfectly: Put talk on FM so it kicks
> KDKA hard and allows WDVE to become No. 1 overall. 104.7 has
> not only taken listeners away from KDKA, it's also grabbed
> them from the limited younger demos that KD had.
>
>

104-7 was primarily Labrozzi's brainchild.<P ID="signature">______________
"With God as my witness, I could have sworn turkeys could fly."</P>
 
> The mantra inside the flashcube is always "protect the
> mothership." That's why, for instance, 970 didn't have a
> morning show until Tunch and Wolf were willing to buy the
> time; Romano and Co. figured that there was plenty of sports
> content in the DVE morning show. It's also why 104.7 was
> allowed to languish as an urban AC for so long before the
> idea for News Talk 104-7 was hatched.. all the musical holes
> they could identify in the market would hurt DVE so they
> never happened.
>
> That being said, 3WS and Kiss just had PD changes. Most of
> the net loss was on 3WS, and I think they only care about
> 18-34s on the X, so the 12+ numbers may or may not be
> relevant. So I doubt anyone's in jeopardy at this point.
>
> Same sort of discussion applies to the post-Stern prospects
> for K-Rock. Howard's debut earned them the #5 spot 25-54
> this book. How far those numbers fall off will determine the
> future of the format.

PT-

The wording you have used..."The mantra inside the flashcube is always 'protect the mothership.'" is EXACTLY what everyone over there, in both sales and programming say and think. Everybody knows it.

I am reminded of it everyday when I drive into work. I see 102.5 DVE on the side of the building.

Your assessment of the 104.7 Beat seems correct, too. After all, if they did not ruin that station with songs from Britney, N*Sync, and all the bubble gum stuff that was played on B-94 and even KISS at the time, they could've had a great station (a successful musical niche that would take away from DVE). Why put that Bubble Gum music on an urban station? If Romano & Co. had kept that station Jammmin' Oldies or Jammin' Hits, and did it right, then there may not have been a newstalk.

However, as I understand it, and as you point out that's why they did it. His alliance to Jay Bohannon's former station and Bohannon himself made it easy, knowing he had a man in place to make a news station happen. I noticed down below you said it was Labrozzi's idea? Well, I'm not too sure about that. I understand from someone higher than Labrozzi, that it was his idea for an FM newstalk. (two guesses as to who I am talking about).

Keeping the Mothership protected can also explain why PD's like Labrozzi have left. They have been homogonizing 3WS. If only Romano & Co. would realize what a great commodity and moneymaker that station is. And, how it can be even higher in the ratings. They have to throw money at that station again.

Perhaps that is the reason why they brought in Greg Gillispie, a person who had a horrible reputation and lack of programming abilities. I know, he was the DVE program director years ago, but that does not show his ability to run a radio station 20 years later. Just by having him on a couple of salescalls, I can tell you, he had no idea who is audience was or what his product was. Shame on the person who hired this idiot. They are responsible for the declining ratings of what was once a great station. I think they still can get there, but they have to take care of it and spend money on 3WS.

I'm in a Catch 22 situation of sorts. I have been listening to it for years. Love the station. But, if I don't receive support in my clients, then I am thinking twice about it. There have been a few sales transactions that I put on to WSHH because I didn't have the faith in it being put together correctly by 3WS, as the people failed to correctly carry out a simple promotion. But now with a new person leading the station, I have a few pending transactions that seem to be moving quite nicely. We'll see in the end. I will tell you, I am a fan of Ms. Vandyke on the air, so I have high hopes she can take 3WS to higher ratings. Fortunately, these ratings are not hers or her the staffs. It's the result of Mario and Company, a repetive Christmas season, etc.

So, yeah, PT you are correct in what you say about The Mothership. I believe the DVE airstaff is not as talented as it once was. I believe their music is stale. And, I think Romano & Co. know this, too. In life, you should get ahead by your merits, not by putting others down. Perhaps the CC braintrust should take a look at this "Protect the Mothership" philosophy and stop putting their other stations down.

Mr. Music
 
>
> The wording you have used..."The mantra inside the flashcube
> is always 'protect the mothership.'" is EXACTLY what
> everyone over there, in both sales and programming say and
> think. Everybody knows it.
>
> I am reminded of it everyday when I drive into work. I see
> 102.5 DVE on the side of the building.
>
> Your assessment of the 104.7 Beat seems correct, too. After
> all, if they did not ruin that station with songs from
> Britney, N*Sync, and all the bubble gum stuff that was
> played on B-94 and even KISS at the time, they could've had
> a great station (a successful musical niche that would take
> away from DVE). Why put that Bubble Gum music on an urban
> station? If Romano & Co. had kept that station Jammmin'
> Oldies or Jammin' Hits, and did it right, then there may not
> have been a newstalk.

That's actually not what I meant. They looked at things like the WMMO "Soft rock 'n roll" format (almost Jack/Bob), among other things, but they knew some of the 25-54's would come from DVE. An urban AC appealed almost exclusively to non-DVE listeners.

>
> However, as I understand it, and as you point out that's why
> they did it. His alliance to Jay Bohannon's former station
> and Bohannon himself made it easy, knowing he had a man in
> place to make a news station happen. I noticed down below
> you said it was Labrozzi's idea? Well, I'm not too sure
> about that. I understand from someone higher than Labrozzi,
> that it was his idea for an FM newstalk. (two guesses as to
> who I am talking about).

Hard to say... but Bohannon wasn't brought in until after it was on the air.

>
> Keeping the Mothership protected can also explain why PD's
> like Labrozzi have left. They have been homogonizing 3WS.
> If only Romano & Co. would realize what a great commodity
> and moneymaker that station is. And, how it can be even
> higher in the ratings. They have to throw money at that
> station again.
>
> Perhaps that is the reason why they brought in Greg
> Gillispie, a person who had a horrible reputation and lack
> of programming abilities.

Thye brought in Gillispie as another weapon for DVE against what was then the brand-new K-Rock... he was there to (sing it with me now) PROTECT THE MOTHERSHIP. He was made 3WS PD because Dave had just left and that salary slot was open.



I know, he was the DVE program
> director years ago, but that does not show his ability to
> run a radio station 20 years later. Just by having him on a
> couple of salescalls, I can tell you, he had no idea who is
> audience was or what his product was. Shame on the person
> who hired this idiot. They are responsible for the declining
> ratings of what was once a great station. I think they
> still can get there, but they have to take care of it and
> spend money on 3WS.
>
> I'm in a Catch 22 situation of sorts. I have been listening
> to it for years. Love the station. But, if I don't receive
> support in my clients, then I am thinking twice about it.
> There have been a few sales transactions that I put on to
> WSHH because I didn't have the faith in it being put
> together correctly by 3WS, as the people failed to correctly
> carry out a simple promotion. But now with a new person
> leading the station, I have a few pending transactions that
> seem to be moving quite nicely. We'll see in the end. I
> will tell you, I am a fan of Ms. Vandyke on the air, so I
> have high hopes she can take 3WS to higher ratings.
> Fortunately, these ratings are not hers or her the staffs.
> It's the result of Mario and Company, a repetive Christmas
> season, etc.
>
> So, yeah, PT you are correct in what you say about The
> Mothership. I believe the DVE airstaff is not as talented
> as it once was. I believe their music is stale.

But it's now #1 12+ and 25-54. Welcome to the Burgh.

<P ID="signature">______________
"With God as my witness, I could have sworn turkeys could fly."</P>
 
> >
> > The wording you have used..."The mantra inside the
> flashcube
> > is always 'protect the mothership.'" is EXACTLY what
> > everyone over there, in both sales and programming say and
>
> > think. Everybody knows it.
> >
> > I am reminded of it everyday when I drive into work. I
> see
> > 102.5 DVE on the side of the building.
> >
> > Your assessment of the 104.7 Beat seems correct, too.
> After
> > all, if they did not ruin that station with songs from
> > Britney, N*Sync, and all the bubble gum stuff that was
> > played on B-94 and even KISS at the time, they could've
> had
> > a great station (a successful musical niche that would
> take
> > away from DVE). Why put that Bubble Gum music on an urban
> > station? If Romano & Co. had kept that station Jammmin'
> > Oldies or Jammin' Hits, and did it right, then there may
> not
> > have been a newstalk.
>
> That's actually not what I meant. They looked at things like
> the WMMO "Soft rock 'n roll" format (almost Jack/Bob), among
> other things, but they knew some of the 25-54's would come
> from DVE. An urban AC appealed almost exclusively to non-DVE
> listeners.

Then they killed the "true" urban AC with that bubblegum music. And only to blow 104.7 up to make way for the Newstalk.

The WMMO format would've certainly put a dent in DVE. Go for the Jammin' format, then kill it, to make way for the Newstalk on FM.

Thanks PT. It all makes sense now.


> > However, as I understand it, and as you point out that's
> why
> > they did it. His alliance to Jay Bohannon's former
> station
> > and Bohannon himself made it easy, knowing he had a man in
>
> > place to make a news station happen. I noticed down below
>
> > you said it was Labrozzi's idea? Well, I'm not too sure
> > about that. I understand from someone higher than
> Labrozzi,
> > that it was his idea for an FM newstalk. (two guesses as
> to
> > who I am talking about).
>
> Hard to say... but Bohannon wasn't brought in until after it
> was on the air.

Nope. I know for a fact that Bohannon was brought in and worked on 104.7 while still in OH. He was with Newstalk from the beginning.


> >
> > Keeping the Mothership protected can also explain why PD's
>
> > like Labrozzi have left. They have been homogonizing 3WS.
>
> > If only Romano & Co. would realize what a great commodity
> > and moneymaker that station is. And, how it can be even
> > higher in the ratings. They have to throw money at that
> > station again.
> >
> > Perhaps that is the reason why they brought in Greg
> > Gillispie, a person who had a horrible reputation and lack
>
> > of programming abilities.
>
> Thye brought in Gillispie as another weapon for DVE against
> what was then the brand-new K-Rock... he was there to (sing
> it with me now) PROTECT THE MOTHERSHIP. He was made 3WS PD
> because Dave had just left and that salary slot was open.

Makes sense now as to why he never knew his core audience. Very stupid move to kill a great radio station (3WS) by this horrible hire but, they were protecting the mothership.

>
> I know, he was the DVE program
> > director years ago, but that does not show his ability to
> > run a radio station 20 years later. Just by having him on
> a
> > couple of salescalls, I can tell you, he had no idea who
> is
> > audience was or what his product was. Shame on the person
>
> > who hired this idiot. They are responsible for the
> declining
> > ratings of what was once a great station. I think they
> > still can get there, but they have to take care of it and
> > spend money on 3WS.
> >
> > I'm in a Catch 22 situation of sorts. I have been
> listening
> > to it for years. Love the station. But, if I don't receive
>
> > support in my clients, then I am thinking twice about it.
>
> > There have been a few sales transactions that I put on to
> > WSHH because I didn't have the faith in it being put
> > together correctly by 3WS, as the people failed to
> correctly
> > carry out a simple promotion. But now with a new person
> > leading the station, I have a few pending transactions
> that
> > seem to be moving quite nicely. We'll see in the end. I
> > will tell you, I am a fan of Ms. Vandyke on the air, so I
> > have high hopes she can take 3WS to higher ratings.
> > Fortunately, these ratings are not hers or her the staffs.
>
> > It's the result of Mario and Company, a repetive Christmas
>
> > season, etc.
> >
> > So, yeah, PT you are correct in what you say about The
> > Mothership. I believe the DVE airstaff is not as talented
>
> > as it once was. I believe their music is stale.
>
> But it's now #1 12+ and 25-54. Welcome to the Burgh.

Unfortunately, it didn't become #1 in the way other radio stations in that building have to get ratings. To get DVE's ratings they ate their young. And, flat out bought so much advertizing, that that is how they became #1.
 
> 1. If the Froggies were treated as one quartette instead of
> two duos, they'd rank 4th, a few points ahead of 3WS. And,
> as a quartette, they're up a little, while WDSY is down a
> lot from the previous quarter. In fact, WDSY has the biggest
> quarter loss.

Here's the thing though. You have to take into account people who probably fill out the diary by putting "Froggy". Arbitron calibrates those by placing the "point" at the nearest geographic Froggy. But what if that person was driving to work and listened to one Froggy 98 and never to Froggy 104, for example. Arb will give that person's "point" to 104 based on geography, when it might really go to 98. The result may not necessarily be a transfer of the points from 104 to 98 in even measure. And would provide even less of an equality.

Merely adding up the Froggies is too simplistic.

Regardless, they still don't beat Y108.
 
I'm not saying that the Froggies should be combined. I only only said what I said, not what everybody is reading into what I said.

Face it, thanks to de-regulation and the fact that a few companies can tie up all of the stations in town, anyone else trying to compete is facing a major uphill fight. If the folks who owned the Frogs had one of the FM stations that Clear Channel uses as blockers to protect WDVE instead of attempting to cobble together some sort of ad hoc network of semi-distant fringe stations, they'd probably kick Y-108's hidquarters. But things are the way they are, and that's that.

The Arbitrons are one of the most imprecise measuring systems I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of systems. But even if the numbers are only accurate within a plus or minus of half a point, Y-108 is down 1.2 points. Y-108 is down by the largest amount of any station on the list. And together or separately, the Frogs are up a little bit. If some of the Frog's gain is just a statistical glitch, that doesn't change the big picture.

You and I both know that the way that Arbitron diaries get filled out makes them only slightly more accurate than reading the entrails of a chicken. Before we start nitpicking over minor problems like whether the Arbitron people allocated a commuter's diary points to the station near his home or his workplace, we'd first have to address the people who wait until the last minute before the diary is to be mailed in who fill the thing out from fuzzy memories.

> > 1. If the Froggies were treated as one quartette instead
> of
> > two duos, they'd rank 4th, a few points ahead of 3WS. And,
>
> > as a quartette, they're up a little, while WDSY is down a
> > lot from the previous quarter. In fact, WDSY has the
> biggest
> > quarter loss.
>
> Here's the thing though. You have to take into account
> people who probably fill out the diary by putting "Froggy".
> Arbitron calibrates those by placing the "point" at the
> nearest geographic Froggy. But what if that person was
> driving to work and listened to one Froggy 98 and never to
> Froggy 104, for example. Arb will give that person's
> "point" to 104 based on geography, when it might really go
> to 98. The result may not necessarily be a transfer of the
> points from 104 to 98 in even measure. And would provide
> even less of an equality.
>
> Merely adding up the Froggies is too simplistic.
>
> Regardless, they still don't beat Y108.
>
 
Simulcasts

> > 1. If the Froggies were treated as one quartette instead
> of
> > two duos, they'd rank 4th, a few points ahead of 3WS. And,
>
> > as a quartette, they're up a little,
>
> Realist--why don't you just put them with Froggy 95 in
> Johnstown and Froggy 98 in Altoona while you're at it...
> Froggy 95 comes in about as well as Froggy 104 in
> Pittsburgh... why not add that in... I think Johnstown is
> even closer than Froggy 104's stick.
>
> Adding the frogs together DO NOT MAKE SENSE... especially
> when they split the commercials.

Yes, Keymarket does split commercials. Just as any network offers slots for local commercials, so it seems Keymarket sells time on each of its stations. But that doesn't rule out someone wanting to buy on all four stations at one time, and (I'm not sure if this is for 19 or 24 hours now) it is the same programming for most of (if not the entire) day on the four Pittsburgh/Carnegie Frogs.

So, yes, adding the four Frogs does make sense.

As for Johnstown and Altoona, the fiction notwithstanding (the difference in ownerships between Keymarket and Forever is about 10 or 15 percent if memory serves me correctly), those are separate stations offering a separate lineup of deejays and programming.

So, adding those sticks to the Pittsburgh Frogs would not make sense.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by KeyTimes on 01/23/06 02:47 PM.</FONT></P>
 
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