Ok..deep breath everyone...

[cabradio]

We do pretty good here, I think, of keeping things civil. Occassionally 2001 will inject a smart a$$ comment that provokes the previous poster..(sorry 2001, just pickin on ya! no ill-will intended)..

Then...sometimes we fall into a trap, where a comment steps over someone's personal boundaries, and it goes on from there. We all have them. Some are shorter than others, but eventually, a boundary gets crossed. That has happened between Gnarlodious and Scribbler. I'm not Jewish, but I didn't take offense to the post in question. And unless a few more speak up, I don't see a reason to delete the post. It wasn't said in a hateful tone, but rather in an attempt to describe. (at a crime scene you may be asked "what did he look like?", if you answer "he looked Jewish", or "he was a black man", does that make you racially insensitive?)

However, Gnarlodious unecessarily took it too far with a personal attack. And I have removed that post. I'm leaving scribbler's defense, because there is a good radio comment with it.

Let's continue to treat each other with mutual respect. Remember, we all have the same color blood: <font color="green">green</font>. .... uh..uh.. I mean <font color="brown">reddish brown</font>. <font color="red"> [falling into deep thought]</font>. ....is that right? I knew I'd get something wrong and give everyone a reason to suspect my origins...<font color="red">[back to reality] </font>

In all seriousness, please try to be more accepting and understanding of other people's opinions. Just because they disagree doesn't give you a license to insult. <P ID="signature">______________



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[Scribbler]

I don't see a reason to delete the post.
> It wasn't said in a hateful tone, but rather in an attempt
> to describe. (at a crime scene you may be asked "what did he
> look like?", if you answer "he looked Jewish", or "he was a
> black man", does that make you racially insensitive?)

It seems to me that saying that Air Americs has a "Jewish format" without offering any evidence is going WAY beyond saying that somebody "looked Jewish." Many stations label themselves as having Christian formats, which is fine, but I'm confident that AAR would strongly deny that it has a "Jewish" one. And yes, Al Franken does a bit in which he plays an elderly Jewish man, but that's a couple of minutes out of a 20 hour day -- hardly a "format."

 

[2001]

> We do pretty good here, I think, of keeping things civil.
> Occassionally 2001 will inject a smart a$$ comment that
> provokes the previous poster..(sorry 2001, just pickin on
> ya! no ill-will intended)..
>
> Then...sometimes we fall into a trap, where a comment steps
> over someone's personal boundaries, and it goes on from
> there. We all have them. Some are shorter than others, but
> eventually, a boundary gets crossed. That has happened
> between Gnarlodious and Scribbler. I'm not Jewish, but I
> didn't take offense to the post in question. And unless a
> few more speak up, I don't see a reason to delete the post.
> It wasn't said in a hateful tone, but rather in an attempt
> to describe. (at a crime scene you may be asked "what did he
> look like?", if you answer "he looked Jewish", or "he was a
> black man", does that make you racially insensitive?)
>
> However, Gnarlodious unecessarily took it too far with a
> personal attack. And I have removed that post. I'm leaving
> scribbler's defense, because there is a good radio comment
> with it.
>
> Let's continue to treat each other with mutual respect.
> Remember, we all have the same color blood: green. ....
> uh..uh.. I mean reddish brown. [falling into deep thought].
> ....is that right? I knew I'd get something wrong and give
> everyone a reason to suspect my origins...[back to reality]
>
>
> In all seriousness, please try to be more accepting and
> understanding of other people's opinions. Just because they
> disagree doesn't give you a license to insult.
>

Cab, two things.........

1.) I read that exchange you are referring to, and I could see where it was going. I refrained from jumping in, because, honestly, I knew you were going to get involved at some point, and in an admittedly rare/unusual/uncharacteristic move on my part, I simply chose to just stand on the sideline and watch. I figured why go through the trouble of typing six posts....and then end up having five of them get deleted?! LOL!

2.) As far as mentioning my name in your post goes.....It made my day! I just know I've hit the "big time" when I see my name mentioned in a moderator's post, like yours! LOL!

Thanks, Cab!


BTW, in case anyone is interested....I have had (and still have) many friends who are Jewish, and I consider myself a strong supporter of Israel.---If that gives anyone any indication of what I might have said. Maybe it does give some indication of what I might have said, maybe it doesn't. I don't know. What do I care? LOL!

 

[cabradio]

> It seems to me that saying that Air Americs has a "Jewish
> format" without offering any evidence is going WAY beyond
> saying that somebody "looked Jewish." Many stations label
> themselves as having Christian formats, which is fine, but
> I'm confident that AAR would strongly deny that it has a
> "Jewish" one. And yes, Al Franken does a bit in which he
> plays an elderly Jewish man, but that's a couple of minutes
> out of a 20 hour day -- hardly a "format."
>


I agree with you. But he was only offering an opinion...which, as we clarified in a different post, doesn't need any factual references. It's just an opinion. Poorly worded, I'll give you, but he made his point. And you have expressed your differing opinion. That's what this is all about. An exchange of opinions. Not necessarily right, not necessarily wrong. Thanks for your understanding...or at least attempting to understand.

I think we have good bunch of people with varied views, and that's one of the spices of life. It used to be that people who lived in the USA understood that about human nature and we all got along fairly well. Better than we do today, anyway. It wasn't necessarliy perfect, but closer to perfection than now. Then the ACLU was created....LOL<P ID="signature">______________



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[Gnarlodious]

My deplorable ad-hominem personal attack...

I'm not sure which personal attack was the most offensive, was it the one where I called an Air America supporter a "clueless booster"? If so, yes, I agree that was a deplorable ad-hominem personal attack and I apologize profusely but geeze, how the hell are we gonna underscore any statement with such thin skinned people around here?

As long as I haven't been ejected from the board yet I'd like to make the point once again. Air America's primarily Jewish content poses a serious obstacle to marketing in small town America. Ironically, Clear Channel is in the best position to ignore AAR's contractual demands and air AAR programming selectively, such as thay do in Spokane and Boulder. Obviously, local PD's have a better handle on their listenership than the hot doggers at Air America.

I certainly hope I have not offended the delicate Jews here, I am one and I do not offend myself when I say Air America has too much Jewish content. It seems like there are Jews who believe Air America is somehow "The Jewish Voice" of liberalism in America and it should continue to be that. If Air America continues to target small communities without a large Jewish population they should reduce their Jewish oriented programming and give Americans more mainstream talkers.<P ID="signature">______________
• K5ZN</P>

 

[valkyrie777]

Deep Breath Taken...Now!

While AAR doesn't have a "Jewish Format", it sure as heck has a "Jewish Persona" or "Jewish Identity". May I explain?

Rachel Maddow is Jewish. Many of her comments have a pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian bent. That's neither good nor bad; just is a fact.

Half the Morning Sedition...Mark Merin...is Jewish. His schtick is Borscht-Belt humor and his references are, for the most part, growing up Jewish in New York. (The other half of the team is Mark Riley, who is an angry black guy. The thrust of his mornings are spent in rant-mode of how racism/slavery pervade today's environment. Racism is a fact, but, there is more than just that going on) When they have a guest on their show, it's more likely than not to be some yutz running for local office in Brooklyn or Queens; hardly a nationwide appeal generated there.

Jerry Springer is Jewish. His verbal doodlings and musings invariably end up at the gates of Auswitz or Dachau where he waxes nostalgic for his ancestors. We grieve with him, but, not all of us need to relive "Schindler's List" on a daily basis. We get it: the Shoa (sp?) was real!

Al Franken and Katherine simply re-hash old Catskill-era humor that hits it's nadir with the "Oy, Oy, Oy Show". Oy! How many Americans in Des Moines, Colorado Springs, Santa Fe or Cheyenne can relate to a constant barrage of blintzes? And, so it goes for the rest of the broadcast day. My point here is to be realistic...not anti-Semitic. If AAR wants to broaden its appeal, it must broaden its scope and its reach.

While we all celebrate Yiddish/Jewish humor and chutzpah, AAR needs to understand that there is more about which to talk than that. They need to engage and challenge the Neo-cons, The Religious Reich, anti-choicers, homophobes and more. To me, THAT is what being a balanced progressive outlet entails.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Scribbler]

Re: My deplorable ad-hominem personal attack...

> I'm not sure which personal attack was the most offensive,
> was it the one where I called an Air America supporter a
> "clueless booster"? If so, yes, I agree that was a
> deplorable ad-hominem personal attack and I apologize
> profusely but geeze, how the hell are we gonna underscore
> any statement with such thin skinned people around here?


I was going to let this thread die a natural death, but since I'm the one who was the subject of Gnarlodious' personal attack...

As for the "clueless booster" charge, I'd be interested in hearing in what way I've demonstrated cluelessness. As I've said in a now-deleted post, I'm very old and am therefore sure that I have many more years of radio experience (including network experience) than Gnarlodious, who demonstrated how clued-in she is by describing Missoula, Montana as a small, conservative farming community. Actually, it's a liberal college town that went overwhelmingly for John Kerry in '04.

Gnarlodious also maintained that rural America (somehow exemplified by a liberal college town) would never accept "fast-talking Jews" even though most of the successful right-wing hosts talk much faster than Al Franken. That leaves the Jewish factor. Gnarlodious may well be right that conservative farming communities will never accept Jewish talkers, but, on the other hand, AAR just might be able to succeed without such communities.

I have a lot of problems with AAR and wish, among other things, that Franken WAS a "fast talking Jew," but I fail to see that having too many of "them" is among AAR's greatest problems (although I do wish that Franken would dump the embarrassing Oy Oy Show).

Michael Savage (nee Michael Weiner) seems to be doing pretty well -- and the last time I heard him he was talking...fast.

 

[Gnarlodious]

Re: My deplorable ad-hominem personal attack...

> As for the "clueless booster" charge, I'd be interested in
> hearing in what way I've demonstrated cluelessness.

Air America is custom made for a targeted audience, which sells well in places like New York. But to push that style of programming on places like Santa Fe, Boulder and Spokane (where I am now) is... well, arrogant and presumptuous. People here in Spokane, for example, were initially enthusiastic when AAR came to town but enthusiasm has waned because a lot of AAR's content they just don't get.
There are people like yourself who believe in the "take it or leave it" approach. "You don't understand our fast talking Jewish big city format, don't listen". That is fine, except that AAR will never become the liberal mainstream voice it could be, it will always appeal to a marginal ethnic audience of Jews. As a Jew, maybe you think that is what AAR should be. Well, as a Jew that's not what I expected to be.

> Gnarlodious may well be right that
> conservative farming communities will never accept Jewish
> talkers, but, on the other hand, AAR just might be able to
> succeed without such communities.

This statement tells me that you think AAR should not try to appeal to the average American Liberal but should be a voice of "Liberal Intellectual Jews", this is exactly what I meant when I called you a "clueless booster". Propping up the agenda of Jewish New York elitists. And don't deride me too loudly for saying that, I spend plenty of time in New York with Jews.

I'd like to hear AAR talk to labor unionists, truckers, farmers and the working class. Mike Malloy does a good job of it. Putting Malloy on was the best move AAR ever made. I wish there were more like him.

> I have a lot of problems with AAR and wish, among other
> things, that Franken WAS a "fast talking Jew," but I fail to
> see that having too many of "them" is among AAR's greatest
> problems (although I do wish that Franken would dump the
> embarrassing Oy Oy Show).

That's odd. Just like you are embarassed over the Oy Oy Oy segment I am embarassed over the entire Franken show but think Oy Oy Oy is his best part! Other than that I can turn him off, he just doesn't think fast enough.

> Michael Savage (nee Michael Weiner) seems to be doing pretty
> well -- and the last time I heard him he was talking...fast.

How about a Franken/Savage co-hosted show? Franken needs someone to goad him into activity, that might just be the combo!
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[tbetz]

Re: Deep Breath Taken...Now!

> While AAR doesn't have a "Jewish Format", it sure as heck
> has a "Jewish Persona" or "Jewish Identity". May I explain?
>
> Rachel Maddow is Jewish. Many of her comments have a
> pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian bent. That's neither good nor
> bad; just is a fact.

That's funny; I've never heard her do that. I've observed her to have a pretty balanced attitude (sort of a Ha-aretzish editorial position) toward Israel and Palestine, though she certainly expressed disdain for that old crook Yassir Arafat during the period of his drawn-out death; but that is considerably different from being anti-Palestinian. Can you cite a date for one such occurence? I'll go through the archives and check it out.

> Half the Morning Sedition...Mark Merin...is Jewish. His
> schtick is Borscht-Belt humor and his references are, for
> the most part, growing up Jewish in New York.

That's also funny, considering that Maron grew up in Albuquerque.

> (The other half of the team is Mark Riley, who is an angry black guy.

Angry? I'd define his persona more as "essentially jolly, but tending toward world-weary". Not "angry".

> When they have a guest on their show, it's more likely than not to be
> some yutz running for local office in Brooklyn or Queens;
> hardly a nationwide appeal generated there.

While they occasionally have local politicians on as guests (especially lately, as the New York Democratic mayoral primary campaign has been heating up, and they seem to be offering each candidate an appearance at one of their Friday remotes), their standard guest fare is comics, musicians, filmmakers, reporters and authors.

Where are you getting this stuff?<P ID="signature">______________
also known as tombetz.</P>

 

[Scribbler]

Re: My deplorable ad-hominem personal attack...

> AAR will never become the liberal mainstream
> voice it could be, it will always appeal to a marginal
> ethnic audience of Jews. As a Jew, maybe you think that is
> what AAR should be. Well, as a Jew that's not what I
> expected to be.

Well, since I'm not Jewish, I can't speak "as a Jew," but as a fallen-away Catholic, AAR appeals to me, although it could be better. But, as I've said, it's alleged "Jewishness" isn't a problem for me.
>
> > Gnarlodious may well be right that
> > conservative farming communities will never accept Jewish
> > talkers, but, on the other hand, AAR just might be able to
>
> > succeed without such communities.
>
> This statement tells me that you think AAR should not try to
> appeal to the average American Liberal but should be a voice
> of "Liberal Intellectual Jews", this is exactly what I meant
> when I called you a "clueless booster".

You're putting words in my mouth (with quotation marks, no less) with zero evidence. Most American liberals don't live in conservative farming communities. And as a non-Jew, I have no particular interest in hearing Jewish talkers. Franken is the only Air America host that I hear talking about his Jewishness and Garafolo, Malloy, Riley, Kennedy and others are definitely not Jewish. I don't think Rhodes is either.

In at least one other post you've named Thom Hartmann as the sort of talker that AAR should be hiring -- but he's more intellectual than any of the current AAR hosts. I seriouly doubt that, outside of college towns, he'll ever get ratings in small-town America.

Howard Stern (a Jew) is a huge success, even though he's on only 45 stations, partly because he appeals to a big city sensibility. If Air America is going to succeed it can't be all things to all people. First and foremost it needs to get ratings in the major markets.

> I'd like to hear AAR talk to labor unionists, truckers,
> farmers and the working class. Mike Malloy does a good job
> of it. Putting Malloy on was the best move AAR ever made. I
> wish there were more like him.

Malloy is the one AAR host who the average middle American finds most offensive! That's why, for the most part, he's not being cleared except in the most liberal, big-city markets. What many Christians hear as his contempt for their religion doesn't go over well in small-town America.

 

[Gnarlodious]

Re: My deplorable ad-hominem personal attack...

> Well, since I'm not Jewish, I can't speak "as a Jew"

Really? because I have several emails here sent by a "Scribbler" who claims to be Jewish and calls me a string of denigrating Jewish epithets. The emails have the subject line "New Reply on Radio-Info", and are sent to my published address not my real address.

I'm going to assume there's an impostor out there who wants a fight. You, sir, are apparently a reasonable person and should disregard all previous assumptions to you as Jewish, including the part about putting words in your mouth.

Good day and I'll drop out of this discussion.<P ID="signature">______________
• K5ZN</P>

 

[Scribbler]

Re: My deplorable ad-hominem personal attack...

> > Well, since I'm not Jewish, I can't speak "as a Jew"
>
> Really? because I have several emails here sent by a
> "Scribbler" who claims to be Jewish and calls me a string of
> denigrating Jewish epithets.

I did send you a couple of private e-mails, but I never claimed to be Jewish. You may have assumed I was because I objected to your repeated references to Air America's "Jewish format", etc. Surely you've heard the expression, "Some of my best friends are Jewish."

I did use a phrase (in a question) that is sometimes used by my Jewish friends, but that hardly constituted a "string of denigrating Jewish epithets."

It was you who called me a "clueless booster" on a public message board and I would put THAT in the denigrating category. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Scribbler on 07/18/05 01:09 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[NewsVet]

Re: Deep Breath Taken...Now!

> > While AAR doesn't have a "Jewish Format", it sure as heck
> > has a "Jewish Persona" or "Jewish Identity". May I
> explain?
> >
> > Rachel Maddow is Jewish. Many of her comments have a
> > pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian bent. That's neither good nor
> > bad; just is a fact.
>
> That's funny; I've never heard her do that. I've observed
> her to have a pretty balanced attitude

I don't listen to Maddow, since she's on much too early for me. But, if anything, the knock on the AAR hosts in general is that they're pro-Palestinian, like many on the left. Of course, to a hard-core supporter of Israel, anybody who takes a more moderate stand than they do is "pro-Palestinian."

> > (The other half of the team is Mark Riley, who is an angry
> black guy.
>
> Angry? I'd define his persona more as "essentially jolly,
> but tending toward world-weary". Not "angry".

Agreed. Perfect description.

As for AAR's alleged "Jewish persona," the complaint I hear is not that but rather an objection to what devout Christians think is an anti-Christian attitude. And from what I've heard, this supposed attitude is being expressed more by the non-Jewish hosts than the Jewish hosts. And the hosts say that they're actually talking about some of the more extreme positions of Christian fundamentalists, not Christians in general.