ok is this pushing it?? K269FD???

[jras20]

How did K269FD 101.7 in Luling get aproved?? This seems to be very close to KROX, And KQXT. What is the deal FCC?? I guess FM is going to be like AM before to long. I dont see how in the world these things come on the air! Any thoughts about this?

 

[oldjohnny]

I've seen even more rare cases. But yeah, I would probably consider this a bit too close to both KQXT and KROX. The city of Luling is just outside the 50 dbu contour line of both stations and even though it seems to me that the Xmitter is just east of the city, it is still fairly close. Well, at least they didn't put it in the same frequency like the scenerio with KQLC and KQQK.

 

[jd]

Any thoughts about this?

jras, betcha knew you could depend on me to chime in on this one. Let's see, using my handy distance calculator, it looks like the Luling translator is about 48 miles away from the KROX 101.5 tower, which is just west of downtown Austin. Up the dial to KQXT 101.9 on the east side of downtown SA, the distance is right around 56 miles. Those are rough figures but you get the idea. How did the FCC allow it? Because the rules allow translators to be located just beyond the fringe of a full-power station's "service area" (60dBu) contour. Here are the service areas, starting with the translator: www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FX1206054.html and here's KROX:
www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM535188.html Finally, KQXT:
www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM66348.html

We've covered things like this before, and like you, I haven't changed my opinion of the practice. If a translator can have a range of 10 miles or maybe a little more, let's say, and a KROX listener can reasonably expect to hear the station beyond 35 miles or so, the problem with first-adjacent channel interference becomes a real possibility.

And drug testing in the workplace should include 445 12th Street SW, Washington, DC 20554. So there. That's my rant for the day.

 

[jras20]

Translators go farther than the FCC has it covering I can pick them up north of Lockhart but then again, it could be my antenna setup. I havnt checked in my Truck yet on how it does. I think the FCC needs to change this rule. They are crowding up the FM band this way. In ways it may be worse off than AM.

 

[captex]

i noticed by looking at the fcc site, they have alot of stations still listed from a couple of years and they haven't takened any of them off thier listings. i thought they would be keeping thier site update with new station applications and getting rid of the old station listings that never been approved. i noticed three new applications that are listed thorndale 90.1, cameron 90.3 and la grange 90.3. jras you come up with some interesting topics.
thanks captex.

 

[slim101]

Actually, that translator seems to clear the 60dbu contour of both stations by quite a distance...nothing marginal at all.
There is a reason the FCC calls the 60 dbu contour the "service" contour.
In fact, it looks like listeners of the translator will receive much more interference from KROX-FM and KQXT-FM than those stations will receive from it.

There has to be some "reasonable" criteria for how stations should be spaced, that is why and how the FCC rules are written. To do otherwise would be a huge waste of the spectrum available. You are just unhappy with the realities of the math.

Wait until the FCC eliminates the 3rd adjacent protections required of LPFM's.
Then you will really enjoy the multitude of new signals squeezed into your neighborhood by local/community oriented 100 watt and 10 watt stations.

 

[Kent]

Also, keep in mind that translators don't have to follow distance-based separation rules like full-power (and possibly low power) stations do. They follow a signal strength-based separation policy. I know of a translator on 107.3 near Knoxville, TN that is well within the primary signal contour of WIVK 107.7. I remember reading that it was licensed because it was able to prove that the only area where it put a strong enough signal to possibly cause problems for WIVK was unpopulated. Furthermore, translators are secondary services and can be ordered to leave the air or find a new frequency should they cause trouble beyond what their models show.

 

[jd]

Wait until the FCC eliminates the 3rd adjacent protections required of LPFM's.
Then you will really enjoy the multitude of new signals squeezed into your neighborhood by local/community oriented 100 watt and 10 watt stations.

Seems to me that's a much better use of the spectrum than granting hundreds upon hundreds of translators to band-hog leaf-frog satellite operations from somewhere in Idaho. I've heard a lot of LPFM's that do a great job of serving their community like the one operated by regular poster Chuck over in East Texas.

And restricting LPFM's to third-channel separation to full-power stations was a ridiculous requirement from the beginning.

Furthermore, translators are secondary services and can be ordered to leave the air or find a new frequency should they cause trouble beyond what their models show.

No argument here on that point, but there's a big difference between allowing a translator to be located close to a full-power station with a separation of 200, not 400 kHz. There are still a lot of bedside clock radios in use out there that can't separate signals very well and many vehicles have radios that don't do that well either. Then there's the case in the Houston area mentioned earlier where a translator was approved to operate on the same channel as a full-power station. Apparently it was a real issue, or at least Univision saw it that way when they filed a lengthy complaint about it.

 

[slim101]

Seems to me that's a much better use of the spectrum than granting hundreds upon hundreds of translators to band-hog leaf-frog satellite operations from somewhere in Idaho. I've heard a lot of LPFM's that do a great job of serving their community like the one operated by regular poster Chuck over in East Texas.

I think you are painting with a really broad brush there JD. Not all translators are owned by Christers from Idaho.
If I am not confused (it is possible), Chuck has a couple of translators helping out his LPFM. Do you object to that?

I agree that some LPFM's do great community service, but many of them are also just automated regurgitation of the same s--- that comes out of Idaho (just like full power stations).

jras20 just wants the FCC to make engineering decisions based on his programming preferences.

BTW, the translator under discussion has proposed a move of about 12 miles to the southeast. That should clear the way for better reception of the Clear Channel and Emmis programming from the big cities.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/eng_fm.pl?Application_id=1227465

 

[jd]

I think you are painting with a really broad brush there JD. Not all translators are owned by Christers from Idaho.
If I am not confused (it is possible), Chuck has a couple of translators helping out his LPFM. Do you object to that?

Maybe that's the way you see it. It was a generalization, I admit. But did the FCC promote localism when they approved so many of the applications that were filed back in the "Great Translator Invasion"? An overwhelming majority of those were filed by religious broadcasters like the one based in Twin Falls.

You're not confused at all about "QX-FM." The East Texas Repeater Group did indeed set up translators in Kilgore and Longview and they followed that with the purchase of a facility in Tyler. I certainly don't object to it. I applaud their efforts because Chuck's little station not only offers something different musically but is also is truly involved with the community.

jras20 just wants the FCC to make engineering decisions based on his programming preferences.

Sorry, but maybe we should let him answer that. Obviously he's not a broadcast engineer but he's a true fan of broadcasting and that's why he's a regular poster here.

I can also tell you is that jras lives in an area that's outside the "service area" of stations from Austin and San Antonio but numerous stations from those places have pretty good signals where he lives. I'd also figure that there might be a good number of people living around him who have moved away from the city but could still be commuting to work in Austin or SA. Maybe they've got a weekend place near a small town or for some other reason they simply might have a kinship with the bigger cities instead of places like Lockhart or Luling.

With that said, what's wrong with jras or his neighbors being able to listen to the big city stations without interference from a small-town translator on an adjacent channel? I don't think it's unreasonable for a listener to expect to get an interference-free signal from a full Class C station for up to 50 miles, or maybe a little more. Sure, it may work on paper and be technically feasible but in the real world (read "mobile society") is squeezing in so many translators like this really such a good idea?

 

[slim101]

I don't think it's unreasonable for a listener to expect to get an interference-free signal from a full Class C station for up to 50 miles, or maybe a little more.

Indeed a full class C station should put a quality signal at that distance, especially in the "flat lands" of south Texas.
Unfortunately, KQXT-FM is a C1 station operating 312 feet below its maximum height, and KROX is a C2 station operating at 12.5 kw because it is "short spaced" to another station. If either station were operating at full facilities the translator probably would not be on the air where it is now.

I applaud their efforts because Chuck's little station not only offers something different musically but is also is truly involved with the community.

That just proves my point about choices of programming. Chuck is "worthy", but the little Class A station from Kenedy, Tx is not?

 

[jras20]

JD is right, I do not work in Radio, just a fan of radio.

 

[jd]

Unfortunately, KQXT-FM is a C1 station operating 312 feet below its maximum height, and KROX is a C2 station operating at 12.5 kw because it is "short spaced" to another station. If either station were operating at full facilities the translator probably would not be on the air where it is now.

I beg your pardon. Nowhere in that post did I specifically mention those stations, but for discussion purposes I probably should have referred to "full power" stations instead of "full Class C"s. I'm also fully aware of the designated classes for KQXT and KROX, along with section 73.215 contour protection rules and corresponding separation requirements. I've been doing allocation studies for more than 25 years so you're not speaking to a neophyte.

That just proves my point about choices of programming. Chuck is "worthy", but the little Class A station from Kenedy, Tx is not?

Does it make a difference that the 101.7 translator relays a full service FM station as opposed to the East Texas Repeater group's translators relaying a LPFM? No, it shouldn't. Maybe you think I'm against religious stations like KTNR putting translators on the air. I'm not, as long as we're not talking about giving them hundreds of frequencies around the country while excluding other deserving applicants. And I'm certainly opposed to granting translators where the potential for interference is evident.