Older Audiences & Advertiser Appeal (For All Markets)

[vchimpanzee]

You are thinking of Jitterbug, which has simple phones targeted at the 75+ crowd.

I have one and it's still not simple enough.

 

[CTListener]

But on the stations I listen to online, he is mostly a singer of standards. The primary exception is "Have I Told You Lately" which seems to qualify as a standard. "Tonight's the Night" and "This Old Heart of Mine" and maybe "Maggie May" are on America's Best Music.

Stewart has recorded several albums of "Great American Songbook" material in this millennium and they have sold well. The arrangements are faithful to the originals. If you're programming a music service that includes standards in 2023, there's no reason to exclude Stewart.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

vchimpanzee:

But on the stations I listen to online, he is mostly a singer of standards. The primary exception is "Have I Told You Lately" which seems to qualify as a standard. "Tonight's the Night" and "This Old Heart of Mine" and maybe "Maggie May" are on America's Best Music.

CT Listener:

Stewart has recorded several albums of "Great American Songbook" material in this millennium and they have sold well. The arrangements are faithful to the originals. If you're programming a music service that includes standards in 2023, there's no reason to exclude Stewart.

Yes. Now that I think about it, including Rod Stewart as a standards singer makes a lot of sense. -- Daryl

 

[davideduardo]

I grew up during the disco era. I wasn't familiar with The Beatles and even once I heard them, I didn't really like them. Once i discovered standards, that was my music, along with the softer music from the disco era and even some disco.

Here is something you should be aware of (and I say it with no intent to offend!): You are what we call in research an "outlier".

An Outlier is a person who is an a group that is generally less than a couple of percent of the group under study who differs significantly from the normal range of behaviours of the group.

An example: a song scores between 70 and 85 among 99 out of 100 people asked about it today. That on person scores it as a 40, meaning "I dislike it a lot, but don't outright hate it". The same person is observed being out of the normal range on a large percentage of other songs.

So, because those strange scores distort slightly the median score for the song, that person's results are removed from the test and discarded. And that is because paying attention to that person's tastes will actually lessen our station's appeal to the 99% (in this imaginary case) who like us, like our song and are core listeners.

So why did we even get that person into the test? They answered that they like our station, and listen a lot. What we could not tell is that the person was a "settler". That is another research term for someone who listened to us as their most used station, but only because it was seen as being "less bad" than all the others. Those people are not able to be pleased by OTA radio... not now, not then, not ever. In fact, it is probable that no curated music source will totally please them.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

Here is something you should be aware of (and I say it with no intent to offend!): You are what we call in research an "outlier".

An Outlier is a person who is an a group that is generally less than a couple of percent of the group under study who differs significantly from the normal range of behaviours of the group.

An example: a song scores between 70 and 85 among 99 out of 100 people asked about it today. That on person scores it as a 40, meaning "I dislike it a lot, but don't outright hate it". The same person is observed being out of the normal range on a large percentage of other songs.

So, because those strange scores distort slightly the median score for the song, that person's results are removed from the test and discarded. And that is because paying attention to that person's tastes will actually lessen our station's appeal to the 99% (in this imaginary case) who like us, like our song and are core listeners.

So why did we even get that person into the test? They answered that they like our station, and listen a lot. What we could not tell is that the person was a "settler". That is another research term for someone who listened to us as their most used station, but only because it was seen as being "less bad" than all the others. Those people are not able to be pleased by OTA radio... not now, not then, not ever. In fact, it is probable that no curated music source will totally please them.

I would think that within the contiguous United States, there are more radio listeners who would choose to listen to standards or to disco, rather than reggaeton music or narco corridosm which are played as "norteno" music by stations with a regional Mexico format. In the U.S., I think that highly sexualized reggaeton, or violence-promoting banda gangster music is the outlier music -- not disco, nor standards.

Even in Mexico, where banda gangster music or narco corridos are popular, lawmakers are trying to address the issue of promoting it in schools to school children. That happened in the state of Sinaloa, home of notorious fentanyl trafficking. Both the Sinaloa and Jalisco cartels are very dangerous.

My guess is that people who listen to disco music like ABBA, or standards by artists like Rod Stewart, Michael Buble, Diana Krall, Barry Manilow, etc. are more prevalent in the contiguous U.S.A. This situation might be different in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean radio markets.
( And I do realize that Bad Bunny is booked into Coachella, and not standards artists). But there is still a market for standards and disco, especially among the boomers and Generation X listeners.

It depends upon the market and whom you are surveying. Survey can kind of be set up to reflect bias confirmation.

I'm not sure that vchimp is so much of an outlier in the U.S.

This is controversial, to be sure. But I think that standards will exist long after reggaeton has passed by. Standards are pretty much enduring in North American culture. They might be updated by newer artists. But the genre remains the same.

Sinaloa lawmakers seek ban on narco ballads, reggaeton in schools

Lawmakers in Sinaloa have proposed banning narco ballads and reggaeton music in schools, arguing that they send “decadent messages” to children.

mexiconewsdaily.com

 

[gr8oldies]

I would think that within the contiguous United States, there are more radio listeners who would choose to listen to standards or to disco, rather than reggaeton music or narco corridosm which are played as "norteno" music by stations with a regional Mexico format. In the U.S., I think that highly sexualized reggaeton, or violence-promoting banda gangster music is the outlier music -- not disco, nor standards.

Even in Mexico, where banda gangster music or narco corridos are popular, lawmakers are trying to address the issue of promoting it in schools to school children. That happened in the state of Sinaloa, home of notorious fentanyl trafficking. Both the Sinaloa and Jalisco cartels are very dangerous.

My guess is that people who listen to disco music like ABBA, or standards by artists like Rod Stewart, Michael Buble, Diana Krall, Barry Manilow, etc. are more prevalent in the contiguous U.S.A. This situation might be different in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean radio markets.
( And I do realize that Bad Bunny is booked into Coachella, and not standards artists). But there is still a market for standards and disco, especially among the boomers and Generation X listeners.

It depends upon the market and whom you are surveying. Survey can kind of be set up to reflect bias confirmation.

I'm not sure that vchimp is so much of an outlier in the U.S.

This is controversial, to be sure. But I think that standards will exist long after reggaeton has passed by. Standards are pretty much enduring in North American culture. They might be updated by newer artists. But the genre remains the same.

Sinaloa lawmakers seek ban on narco ballads, reggaeton in schools

Lawmakers in Sinaloa have proposed banning narco ballads and reggaeton music in schools, arguing that they send “decadent messages” to children.

mexiconewsdaily.com

I'm not even sure I'm following what you're saying. No, it's not likely Abba fans are listening to Nortena and vice versa.

 

[landtuna]

Stewart has recorded several albums of "Great American Songbook" material in this millennium and they have sold well. The arrangements are faithful to the originals. If you're programming a music service that includes standards in 2023, there's no reason to exclude Stewart.

I agree with Chimp. Stewart didn't have the voice of a Standards crooner but the music and lyrics did.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

I'm not even sure I'm following what you're saying. No, it's not likely Abba fans are listening to Nortena and vice versa

My meaning wasn't very clear. And, my viewpoint can be seen as controversial. But my point is that David, who has been very, very successful in radio, says that Chimp would be classified as an outlier. I realize I am being audacious, but I don't agree with that assessment of Chimp.

 

[davideduardo]

I would think that within the contiguous United States, there are more radio listeners who would choose to listen to standards or to disco,

There are more Hispanics in the USA... over 50 million... than there are people who are still alive and like standards. And disco is as dead as Beautiful Music.

rather than reggaeton music or narco corridosm which are played as "norteno" music by stations with a regional Mexico format.

Regggaetón is a blend of salsa, and even older bomba from Puerto Rico with Jamaican dancehall and other beats. It can bee deeply romantic, highly social content laden or just about girls, fast cars, yachts and guns. And drugs.

It's the first kind of Latin Music to unite those under 40 from Chile to Chicago.

Narcorridos are very niche, appealing mostly to rural male Mexican immigrants. Corridos date back to the Revolution, over 100 years ago. They are not the same as Norteña, which came out of the German-managed mines of turn-of-the-century Mexico of over 120 years ago.

In the U.S., I think that highly sexualized reggaeton, or violence-promoting banda gangster music is the outlier music -- not disco, nor standards.

Not all reggaetón is as you describe. And reggaetón universal in Latin America, not restricted to one social class from a part of one nation.

I had a long chat some years back with Daddy Yankee who I had known from programming stations in Puerto Rico. He said that good reggaetón was what are called "estampas" or snapshots of urban life. The good, the bad, but all relevant. Interestingly, in a chat-over-beers with Rubén Blades around 1979 he said the same thing about salsa in the later 60's and 70's.

But it takes knowledge of the society and the culture to understand that.

Even in Mexico, where banda gangster music or narco corridos are popular, lawmakers are trying to address the issue of promoting it in schools to school children. That happened in the state of Sinaloa, home of notorious fentanyl trafficking. Both the Sinaloa and Jalisco cartels are very dangerous.

Most of that music is prohibited on radio in Mexico.

My guess is that people who listen to disco music like ABBA, or standards by artists like Rod Stewart, Michael Buble, Diana Krall, Barry Manilow, etc. are more prevalent in the contiguous U.S.A. This situation might be different in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean radio markets.

ABBA was vastly more popular in Puerto Rico than in the US, but the English language music that was most popular was at least partly rhythmic, and disco was huge and did not die in 1980 as it did in the US.

( And I do realize that Bad Bunny is booked into Coachella, and not standards artists). But there is still a market for standards and disco, especially among the boomers and Generation X listeners.

Maybe some disco artists, like BeeGees and Donna Summer, but those artists redefined disco and they were broader than the genre, which only lived about 5 years.

It depends upon the market and whom you are surveying. Survey can kind of be set up to reflect bias confirmation.

A good research project design takes much time to develop to avoid bias in the wording and even the voices and accents of recruiters and interviewers.

I'm not sure that vchimp is so much of an outlier in the U.S.

He is an ultra-outlier. You run across "out of demo" music tastes perhaps 0.5% of the time or less.

This is controversial, to be sure. But I think that standards will exist long after reggaeton has passed by. Standards are pretty much enduring in North American culture. They might be updated by newer artists. But the genre remains the same.

I don't see any significant interest in standards outside the original fans and a few of their family members. Standards as a radio format pretty much died 20 years ago... along with its listeners.

Sinaloa lawmakers seek ban on narco ballads, reggaeton in schools

Lawmakers in Sinaloa have proposed banning narco ballads and reggaeton music in schools, arguing that they send “decadent messages” to children.

mexiconewsdaily.com

I suspect the legislators are way out of the demo that likes reggaetón and who have most likely never listened to the most popular songs.

And the idea that Mexican social issue are being analyzed by Nordic nation social scientists sounds like a subject for a Mexican equivalent of Saturday Night Live or "Mad" magazine. It's sort of like the fools who wanted Elvis and Little Richard banned... we know how that turned out.

 

[Mikey Radio]

But my point is that David, who has been very, very successful in radio, says that Chimp would be classified as an outlier. I realize I am being audacious, but I don't agree with that assessment of Chimp.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to vchimpanzee, but if you've read some of his past comments and posts about his tastes in music and what he does and doesn't like, then you'd understand that DavidEduardo is correct -vchimp would indeed be considered an "outlier" if you put any stock at all into the research and testing that's done when considering which formats and playlists would be most successful with the greatest number of listeners in a given market. It's one of the reasons vchimp admittedly has some difficulty finding stations that appeal to his particular taste in music, especially in 2023. That's not a bad thing and certainly not a reason to belittle or demean him as everyone's tastes are different, and no one's personal preferences are "wrong", but some do have tastes and preferences that fall well outside the greater group - and it's that "greater group" that stations and their advertisers are most interesting in reaching. If it helps, keep in mind that many of us have openly admitted that we couldn't program a station with the music WE want to hear and listen to and have a terribly successful product, either - which again illustrates why doing the proper research is important.

 

[michael hagerty]

I have one and it's still not simple enough.

So I was gonna be a smart*** and find a photoshopped photo of a cell phone with a rotary dial on it and post it as a reply----and then I find out one really exists:

How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone

...and this astronomy instrumentation engineer, clearly not a technophobe, like VChimpanzee, had a flip-phone that she thought wasn't simple enough. Which is why she designed this.

 

[kevtronics]

(Except that WLML lists Rod Stewart. Why? I always considered Rod Stewart to be a rocker. But maybe they see him as singing standards, the same way that Lady Gaga sings standards with Tony Bennett).

Rod Stewart put out five "Great American Songbook" albums of standards from 2002 to 2010, all of which were big sellers; Volume III in 2004 reached #1 on Billboard's album chart.

 

[Harvey_Dogg]

Carly Simon is much better at singing standards than Rod Stewart.

 

[michael hagerty]

Carly Simon is much better at singing standards than Rod Stewart.

TORCH (released in 1981) was a great album.

Still, my vote for best standards album by a 70s artist goes to:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/a-little-touch-of-schmilsson-in-the-night-mw0002010426

 

[kwthom]

<...>
but some do have tastes and preferences that fall well outside the greater group - and it's that "greater group" that stations and their advertisers are most interesting in reaching. If it helps, keep in mind that many of us have openly admitted that we couldn't program a station with the music WE want to hear and listen to and have a terribly successful product, either - which again illustrates why doing the proper research is important.

The 'business of radio', nearly distilled into a single thought.

@DavidEduardo has mentioned countless times the age group that matters isn't the one I recently joined (60+), and, honestly, I can certainly see where the experience of the senior members of the forum (who also seem to be in that very same age category) recognize and accept their place in the hierarchy.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I agree with Chimp. Stewart didn't have the voice of a Standards crooner but the music and lyrics did.

Regardless, he sounds good to me after hearing him for years. And he gets played a lot on the standards stations I listen to.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Carly Simon is much better at singing standards than Rod Stewart.

Maybe.

Something went wrong when I quoted the wrong person.

 

[kwthom]

There's a bit more here, I think...

That is so sad. It's also cynical. In an ideal world, every listener should be treated as a welcome listener. It's sad to treat older people that way, because most older people know when they are being disrespected -- and they have feelings too, and it hurts to be treated rudely and coldly. That is really a tactic of exclusion and maginalization.

Forty years ago, possibly.

Today (or, within the last five years, perhaps), maybe not. News, information, entertainment. I mean, c'mon, that little handheld-computer that 300 million of us have does all of those things at the exact moment we'd like them to. No waiting for news headlines at the top of the hour.

Brilliant, I tell ya!

Many in the boomer generation are still very active seniors and active consumers. They may not purchase as much as the demographic of age 25-55, but they are still very active. When I worked for the U.S. Census, we were told that 10,000 boomers will retire every day in the U.S., until the year 2030.

Yet, I think that @Kelly A @DavidEduardo and many of the other industry pro's that have participated here over the years have provided details in other threads that activity doesn't equate to "generally-speaking" purchasing power of those that are retiring.

At the end of the day, the 'business of radio' isn't about us in this age group. It's about those in that prime demo that buy things.

More things than those of us 60+ buy.

 

[Kelly A]

At the end of the day, the 'business of radio' isn't about us in this age group. It's about those in that prime demo that buy things.

You're right, but neither David nor I ever said that consumers over 50 don't have purchasing power. What we've said very consistently; is that many advertisers which broadcasters rely on for their existence, are primarily interested in reaching a younger audience. It's just business, nothing personal. Heck, David and I both fall into the 50+ bracket, but we also understand our place in the advertising demo orbit.

More things than those of us 60+ buy.

Absolutely. There certainly are advertisers who want to reach older folks. Right wing talk radio has been profitable because advertisers know that's where a certain demographic lives. Same with classic TV 'diginets'.

There's a lot of money to be made if you have content that's popular with the older set, especially on TV.
Some on this site get so butt hurt about some stations not being interested in reaching seniors. Just like programming to the 50+ crowd, other stations just program to a younger audience that certain advertisers want to reach. Nothing new. It's been this way for decades.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Carly Simon is much better at singing standards than Rod Stewart.

When I turned on WERT today, it said Carly Simon was being played but I heard Rod.

WERT is sounding good today. I actually prefer it to WLML, when it's good.

Edit: They just played Rod again. "Let's Fall in Love".