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Older Demos & Conflicting Opinions

J

JohnRadioFan

Guest
Here is an excerpt from a recent NYC Daily News article from entertainment staff writer, David Hinkley that talks to an opinion most in the industry seem to follow:

“If you wonder why radio formats like oldies and adult standards disappear even though they have large numbers of listeners, the main reason is simple. Radio owners measure success less by listenership than by ad revenue, and if a big audience doesn't translate to big ad dollars, the format may be expendable.
That harsh truth is reflected in a new national survey by Miller Kaplan (MK) on radio's 2005 "Power Ratios" - how various formats convert listeners into ad dollars. A "power ratio" of 1.0 means a format breaks even. It has, say, 5% of the audience and makes 5% of the revenue.
Below a 1.0 is not good. Adult standards, for instance, have 2.45% of the audience in the MK survey, but only 1.08% of the ad dollars, for a dismal "power ratio" of 0.44.
In other words, a station programming adult standards might well see a chance to make more money somewhere else. Also doing very well are adult contemporary stations, with a 1.44 "power ratio"; classic rock, with a 1.50; hot adult contemporary, with a 1.78; '80s oldies, with a 1.50; rock, with a 1.52, and sports, with a 1.44. Doing less well are oldies, with a 0.97 "power ratio" that's been slipping the last few years.”
Bringing this closer to home, when someone on this board indicated Renda Broadcasting spent some $7M to purchase WSOS, I have to wonder if they will be able to overcome some very difficult odds. In the example above, the adult standards station used had a 2.45% share of audience. Currently, WSOS is struggling to even appear in Arbitron. From an advertising perspective, their new property is not very attracting. And given a lot of real old music played and appeal to an older demo, I continue to wonder what plan exists to become successful . The biggest dilemma was Renda had to ensure that WSOS did not in any way compete directly with it’s’ most successful Jax station, WEJZ.
But now to muddy this even more, there are a number of research studies taking place that are indicating that older demos-baby boomers, for example, should not be discounted from an ad perspective. There is the long-held belief that older demos rarely change brand loyalty. But baby boomer expert Ken Dychtwald and his Age Wave research company says boomers are, in fact, more open to new things such as new cell phone technology, Internet shopping, and other products. Aiding to their appeal is the fact that baby boomers have more money than any other group. Below is a website you may want to check out where you can check out research and where people can go when they want to reach out to an older audience.

http://www.thematuremarket.com

So to sum up, the advertising game is played in a 25-54 world, but there are exceptions. And it takes a lot to overcome tough odds. Perception accounts for a lot. A few weeks ago I talked about Miami oldies station, WMXJ, and how they seem to be holding their own from an ad perspective. Interesting to note that if you look at Arbitron, they are listed as a classic hits station. They are still more like a traditional oldies station than what we have in WKQL. But what they did was clever, in my opinion. For those national ads, they may get more of the piece of the pie by calling themselves classic hits than oldies. WKQL should consider changing their format description for Arbitron – even to that Top 40 classic hits they seem to use. It may help them even more. I wonder too if the next logical step for them would be to merge WSOS and WKQL into a 60s/70s pop music station. Something to think about. And imagine the possibilities creative/targeted programming could achieve.
 
> Here is an excerpt from a recent NYC Daily News article from
> entertainment staff writer, David Hinkley that talks to an
> opinion most in the industry seem to follow:
>
>
> Bringing this closer to home, when someone on this board
> indicated Renda Broadcasting spent some $7M to purchase
> WSOS, I have to wonder if they will be able to overcome some
> very difficult odds. In the example above, the adult
> standards station used had a 2.45% share of audience.
> Currently, WSOS is struggling to even appear in Arbitron.
> From an advertising perspective, their new property is not
> very attracting. And given a lot of real old music played
> and appeal to an older demo, I continue to wonder what plan
> exists to become successful . The biggest dilemma was Renda
> had to ensure that WSOS did not in any way compete directly
> with it’s’ most successful Jax station, WEJZ.
> But now to muddy this even more, there are a number of
> research studies taking place that are indicating that older
> demos-baby boomers, for example, should not be discounted
> from an ad perspective. There is the long-held belief that
> older demos rarely change brand loyalty. But baby boomer
> expert Ken Dychtwald and his Age Wave research company says
> boomers are, in fact, more open to new things such as new
> cell phone technology, Internet shopping, and other
> products. Aiding to their appeal is the fact that baby
> boomers have more money than any other group. Below is a
> website you may want to check out where you can check out
> research and where people can go when they want to reach out
> to an older audience.
>


Very true about WSOS but remember a radio station is an investment and if TR every sells his stations in Jax he will make money on WSOS because of the tower moves. As for Arbitron My god they just switched formats a few months ago. Give it time. It will never be a top 10or 15 most likey. On the other hand look at WDUV in Tampa it kicks butt
 
YOU SAY
"..For those national ads, they may get more of the piece of the pie by calling themselves classic hits than oldies. WKQL should consider changing their format description for Arbitron – even to that Top 40 classic hits they seem to use..."

REALITY
National advertisers do not buy beyond the top three stations, and occasionally top five, in a given target demo. I don't see that WKQL comes even close in any demo.

Their only hope is to get packaged with WEJZ - for an extra $20 they get WKQL too. (Or else Renda does the split internally).

What they call themselves is irrelevent, as long as the ratings are so pitiful.

As for WSOS, RENDA considered doing TALK but the networks wouldn't part with their relationship with WOKV (Savage among others).
 
LOCAL talk on FM would be a good choice for Jax...

Since OKV has all the syndicated shows tied up. Jax has never really had a good local talker. OKV started out mostly satellite and has stayed that way. Bring in three talents from out of town, not even good ones, just people who can stir the pot and grab some attention.
 
That says it. And for many of us who appear to be Renda-bashers, the truth is we see an operation that perhpas can work in downtown Yeehaw Junction - but not in the #48 market. Many of us "rooting for the underdog types" would really love to see them perform better.



> What they call themselves is irrelevent, as long as the
> ratings are so pitiful.
>
 
And how will Rooster fit in?

Introducing another talk alternative in the Jax market would as you put it shake things up. But this market is more about not taking chances on anything.

When I did that ratio-ad thing on the first post, I thought about Rooster. Is this the best CC can do with that signal from a revenue perspective? Country stations can have a big audience but that doesn't always translate into the biggest revenue.

I'm thinking that even if WROO "helps" WQIK. Is it enough to keep WROO as is? I'd love to see WROO flip to something else, if anything to get this market out of the doldrums. But that will only happen until the bean counters determine that it makes sense to do.

> Since OKV has all the syndicated shows tied up. Jax has
> never really had a good local talker. OKV started out mostly
> satellite and has stayed that way. Bring in three talents
> from out of town, not even good ones, just people who can
> stir the pot and grab some attention.
>
 
Re: LOCAL talk on FM would be a good choice for Jax...

> Since OKV has all the syndicated shows tied up. Jax has
> never really had a good local talker. OKV started out mostly
> satellite and has stayed that way. Bring in three talents
> from out of town, not even good ones, just people who can
> stir the pot and grab some attention.
>

Local talk is available but I don’t see much support for it from the regular posters on this board. All you hear is how it sucks. The local talk that appears to have the dominate foothold is sports however there are a variety of topics and/or styles available if you look (or should I say more correctly listen).

•WIOJ AM 1010:
oEd Furbee 6-8 AM M-F
oGreg Larson 1-3 M-F
oTuesday- Friday’s 6-7
Inside the Game- Robin Valetutto (Tuesday)
Boomer – Ed Banker (Wednesday)
Sport Talk – Tom Wepple (Thursday)
Affairs of the Heart – Skylar Stone (Friday)
oSaturday
Glenn Boyles Home Improvement Show
One Minute Wellness with Dr. Foster Cullum and Dr. Peter Adams
•WJGR 1320
oJohn Pendleton Noon-2PM M-F
oDavid Allen 4-6 PM M-F
•WYMM Except for Bill O’Reilly All local.

Yes some of the aforementioned shows are brokered but that does not stop them from being local and talk. I was talking with a staff member with another station and he told me that all programs of a local nature had to fit the philosophy and style of the station even if you were paying for the time. Remember some nation hosts started as brokered programming. There is a very popular boxing program that started as brokered and the station put the host on payroll when they saw his numbers.

<P ID="signature">______________
Ed
http://edfurbee.com
http://www.wioj.net</P>
 
Brokered radio is the curse of Jacksonville

Sorry, you can't be a good host if you spend half the day being a salesperson and worrying out p-o' ing clients. Glenn Boyles show is nothing but a continuous shill. All he is is a salesman who puts his clients on the air.
Name me one national host (other than your boxing show) who started out paying for time. Hannity? Limbaugh? You mention some BOXING show which is probably on some third-rate ad hoc sports network out of Vegas or something? There is a reason people pay for airtime. It's because they aren't good enough to earn airtime. And since brokered stations tend not to have P-D's, airchecks, and the like, brokered "talent" generally doesn't get much better. Jacksonville local talk radio has been dominated by brokered shows since the 80's, and the ratings pretty much tell the story.

And by the way, one-day-a-week shows are a waste of money except on the weekends. Do you know anyone not involved personally with a brokered show who
makes an appointment to change their listening habits on a TUESDAY or a THURSDAY?

>
> •WIOJ AM 1010:
> oEd Furbee 6-8 AM M-F
> oGreg Larson 1-3 M-F
> oTuesday- Friday’s 6-7
> Inside the Game- Robin Valetutto
> (Tuesday)
> Boomer – Ed Banker (Wednesday)
> Sport Talk – Tom Wepple (Thursday)
> Affairs of the Heart – Skylar Stone
> (Friday)
> oSaturday
> Glenn Boyles Home Improvement Show
> One Minute Wellness with Dr. Foster
> Cullum and Dr. Peter Adams
> •WJGR 1320
> oJohn Pendleton Noon-2PM M-F
> oDavid Allen 4-6 PM M-F
> •WYMM Except for Bill O’Reilly All local.
>
> Yes some of the aforementioned shows are brokered but that
> does not stop them from being local and talk. I was talking
> with a staff member with another station and he told me that
> all programs of a local nature had to fit the philosophy and
> style of the station even if you were paying for the time.
> Remember some nation hosts started as brokered programming.
> There is a very popular boxing program that started as
> brokered and the station put the host on payroll when they
> saw his numbers.
>
 
Re: Brokered radio is the curse of Jacksonville

Why am I not surprised by the diatribe coming from you? The boxing show is in LA and I learned of from an LA publicist who books guests on my show. I have the privilege of being on 5 days a week. I am not brokered before you scream that again. The point is there are alternatives to the syndicated programming that dominates the market.

I am just a guy trying to get better at this. I have from time to time to time have asked questions in attempt to solicit suggestions to meet that goal. I interject a point from time to time. I do not pretend to be all knowing however I do know what I like and dislike.


> Sorry, you can't be a good host if you spend half the day
> being a salesperson and worrying out p-o' ing clients. Glenn
> Boyles show is nothing but a continuous shill. All he is is
> a salesman who puts his clients on the air.
> Name me one national host (other than your boxing show) who
> started out paying for time. Hannity? Limbaugh? You mention
> some BOXING show which is probably on some third-rate ad hoc
> sports network out of Vegas or something? There is a reason
> people pay for airtime. It's because they aren't good enough
> to earn airtime. And since brokered stations tend not to
> have P-D's, airchecks, and the like, brokered "talent"
> generally doesn't get much better. Jacksonville local talk
> radio has been dominated by brokered shows since the 80's,
> and the ratings pretty much tell the story.
>
> And by the way, one-day-a-week shows are a waste of money
> except on the weekends. Do you know anyone not involved
> personally with a brokered show who
> makes an appointment to change their listening habits on a
> TUESDAY or a THURSDAY?
>
> >
> > •WIOJ AM 1010:
> > oEd Furbee 6-8 AM M-F
> > oGreg Larson 1-3 M-F
> > oTuesday- Friday’s 6-7
> > Inside the Game- Robin Valetutto
> > (Tuesday)
> > Boomer – Ed Banker (Wednesday)
> > Sport Talk – Tom Wepple (Thursday)
> > Affairs of the Heart – Skylar Stone
>
> > (Friday)
> > oSaturday
> > Glenn Boyles Home Improvement Show
> > One Minute Wellness with Dr. Foster
>
> > Cullum and Dr. Peter Adams
> > •WJGR 1320
> > oJohn Pendleton Noon-2PM M-F
> > oDavid Allen 4-6 PM M-F
> > •WYMM Except for Bill O’Reilly All local.
> >
> > Yes some of the aforementioned shows are brokered but that
>
> > does not stop them from being local and talk. I was
> talking
> > with a staff member with another station and he told me
> that
> > all programs of a local nature had to fit the philosophy
> and
> > style of the station even if you were paying for the time.
>
> > Remember some nation hosts started as brokered
> programming.
> > There is a very popular boxing program that started as
> > brokered and the station put the host on payroll when they
>
> > saw his numbers.
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Ed
http://edfurbee.com
http://www.wioj.net</P>
 
Re: Brokered radio is the curse of Jacksonville

> Glenn Boyles show is nothing but a continuous shill. All he is is a salesman who puts his clients on the air.

Anyone ever notice how Glenn sort of looks like Paul Williams?

Just an observation - not meant in any malicious way whatsoever.
Brian V.
 
Re: Brokered radio is the curse of Jacksonville

Wait a minute, That's why he's always singing "Just an Old Fashion Home Improvemnent Song". Come to think of Glenn and Paul have never been in the same room together.

The Soup
>
> Anyone ever notice how Glenn sort of looks like Paul
> Williams?
>
> Just an observation - not meant in any malicious way
> whatsoever.
> Brian V.
> <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Superjax on 03/30/06 06:13 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: And how will Rooster fit in?

> Introducing another talk alternative in the Jax market would
> as you put it shake things up. But this market is more
> about not taking chances on anything.
>
> When I did that ratio-ad thing on the first post, I thought
> about Rooster. Is this the best CC can do with that signal
> from a revenue perspective? Country stations can have a big
> audience but that doesn't always translate into the biggest
> revenue.
>
> I'm thinking that even if WROO "helps" WQIK. Is it enough
> to keep WROO as is? I'd love to see WROO flip to something
> else, if anything to get this market out of the doldrums.
> But that will only happen until the bean counters determine
> that it makes sense to do.
>
> > Since OKV has all the syndicated shows tied up. Jax has
> > never really had a good local talker. OKV started out
> mostly
> > satellite and has stayed that way. Bring in three talents
> > from out of town, not even good ones, just people who can
> > stir the pot and grab some attention.
> >
>
a number what ever Jax is market cannot support a talk show just look at ANDY AND ED.
Just an opion.
 
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