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Oldies 97.7 Lubbock

I have been wondering for months why Ramar Communications have been messing around with frequencies 96.9 and 97.7. Last night, I finally got my answer.

I was driving into town last night and flipped it onto 97.7. They were branding themselves as "Oldies 97.7". At the top of the hour, I got an ID that said "KLZK-HD3 New Deal-Lubbock." Looks like they plan on using 97.7 to broadcast KLZK's HD-3 signal. My guess is they will use 96.9 to broadcast their HD-2 format. 96.9 was silent as of yesterday.

I no longer have an HD radio. Anyone know what KLZK is broadcasting on HD-2?
 
On my HD radio, the HD-3 Feed that had the 97.7 programming on it was actually behind the signal on 97.7. Is this normal? The quality was poor on the HD-3, as well. It's as if they were broadcasting on 97.7 and then using an internet stream to feed 97.3 HD-3. The song was probably 30 seconds behind on the HD feed. Is that legal?

Why would the audio on the actual legal feed KLZK-HD3 be behind the 97.7 translator feed?
 
DMcCloy said:
On my HD radio, the HD-3 Feed that had the 97.7 programming on it was actually behind the signal on 97.7. Is this normal? The quality was poor on the HD-3, as well. It's as if they were broadcasting on 97.7 and then using an internet stream to feed 97.3 HD-3. The song was probably 30 seconds behind on the HD feed. Is that legal?

Why would the audio on the actual legal feed KLZK-HD3 be behind the 97.7 translator feed?
I know when I owned an HD radio, I actually found problems like this to be quite common...even in larger markets. Sometimes the HD signal would be a few seconds behind the analog signal. As you can imagine, it was quite irritating when the HD signal dropped out and reverted back to analog.

They just launched this a few days ago. I'm sure there will be a few temporary bugs.
 
I mean to say that the signal on the HD3 was behind the same signal on 97.7 analog. Probably a good 30 seconds. As I understood translators had to be simulcasts of another signal. I'm wondering if they're running the signal on 97.7 and then running it over to 97.3 HD-3 from there.

Then again, I left radio before HD was a thing, so it's beyond my knowledge base.
 
I have no idea if it is legal or not. In fact, I've never lived in a city with HD2 or HD3 translators. I'm from Dallas and their market is so clogged that they cannot have any HD translators.

On a side note...I tuned into 96.9 on my lunch break and they have launched Rock 96.9. Clearly they are going after FMX. Like FMX, it appears to be an active rock format. In between songs, I heard a station bumper that said "Welcome KFMX listeners to Lubbock's best rock!"

Am I find the only one that finds it odd that they are branding themselves as Rock 96.9 when just up the dial, there is a station called Rock 101.1?

You think they would brand themselves as something different like "96.9 Hub City's Rock" or "96.9 the Rock of Lubbock."
 
DMcCloy said:
On my HD radio, the HD-3 Feed that had the 97.7 programming on it was actually behind the signal on 97.7. Is this normal? The quality was poor on the HD-3, as well. It's as if they were broadcasting on 97.7 and then using an internet stream to feed 97.3 HD-3. The song was probably 30 seconds behind on the HD feed. Is that legal?

Why would the audio on the actual legal feed KLZK-HD3 be behind the 97.7 translator feed?

Here's what's probably happening. The HD signal will normally be behind the analog signal. The natural delay is normally around 8 seconds. Stations usually delay their analog signal to get around this problem and tell the jock to monitor the program channel on the board instead of the over-the-air signal when live. While it's not as common, I understand the HD signal can be delayed, too. There's a good possibility the delay is either not happening or is out-of-sync. Is that normal? Well, it's technically not normal, but it's not particularly rare either. I've heard plenty of stations, including some large and major market ones, that can't blend their analog and HD feeds correctly. I'm not sure if it's legal.

Now, I know what you're probably going to say. If you won't say it, someone else will. That would be, "But, wait. That can't be. This is a translator, and it has to be fed over-the-air!"

That would actually be incorrect. These translators are completely within the primary signal contour of 97.3. The FCC refers to these as "fill-in translators." So-called "fill-in translators" may be fed by any means, and most are fed directly. In a sense, this is creating a loophole in FCC regulations. The theory behind allowing the "fill-in translators" to be fed by any means is that they're supposed to cover an area that's entitled to hear the station but, for whatever reason, can't. So, if the station can't be heard at the translator site, how is it supposed to be fed off-air?
 
Wow! Amarillo doesn't even have an Oldies station, unless you count 100.9 The Eagle. So is Kool 98 no longer playing stuff from the 60s? And what about 107.7 The Eagle? Isn't that pulling from the same demo?
 
DMcCloy said:
...Why would the audio on the actual legal feed KLZK-HD3 be behind the 97.7 translator feed?

I too can confirm that both the HD2 and HD3 signals are roughly 30 seconds behind their analog counterparts.

Like DMcCloy, I'm flummoxed at how the HD signals can be BEHIND the analog translators they're supposedly feeding. The only explanation I can think of is that RAMAR is NOT using HD to feed their analog translators, despite what the online article suggests.

Kent has it partially correct- there is some delay in the HD, but it depends on which multicast signal one is talking about. An HD radio receiver is just like an audio player on your PC- it takes several seconds for the file to buffer before anything plays. Analog radios start playing the moment you turn them on (old tube-types excepted of course), but digital receivers have to fill the buffer first before they play anything. This was a serious design limitation because no one wants a radio that doesn't start playing the moment you turn it on. So Ibiquity's solution was to have the HD receiver START in analog, then once the digital buffer was full, it would then TRANSITION to the HD signal. In order for this solution to work, the analog signal needed to be delayed by several seconds- roughly the time it took for the digital buffer to fill, like 8 to 10 seconds or so. As Kent mentioned, some HD stations do a better job at synchronizing the "blending" on HD1 than others.

The delay in HD2 and HD3 varies by the encoding scheme and equipment used. When I setup KOHM's HD2 signal, the delay was almost a full minute: audio would feed the HD2 encoder and it would be almost 60 seconds before the sound was broadcast over HD2. HD3 was about the same. One downside I realized was that EAS alerts sent over HD2 & 3 would be delayed by another minute!

If RAMAR was indeed using the KLZK HD signal to feed their analog translators on 96.9 and 97.7, the analog audio should FOLLOW what is heard on HD2 and HD3. That is not the case. The audio on analog 96.9 and 97.7 are almost 30 seconds AHEAD of the audio on KLZK's HD2 and HD3. As Kent suggests, there are other ways to feed translators and I submit that might be the case here. Anyone else care to hazard an explanation?

As for the poor quality of KLZK's HD3, that's the result of slicing the total bandwidth for multicasting. I don't recall the actual numbers, but after full fidelity on HD1, and reasonable fidelity on HD2, whatever is left over is available to use for HD3. I know that in early generation encoders, the broadcaster could choose how to split the available bandwidth between HD2 & HD3. There's also HD4 available now, but there's not many bits left over for it to work with.
 
Assuming these are "fill in"translators, they can be fed by any means available. Perhaps they are getting a direct analog feed and the HD-2 is using an IP feed over the public Internet. It is easy to get a 20-30 second (or sometimes a lot more) delay using the Internet as your STL source. It just depends on how the Internet routes your signal, and if it is going to a remote server site in the process. It takes a while to go to India and back... ;D
 
Now, I know what you're probably going to say. If you won't say it, someone else will. That would be, "But, wait. That can't be. This is a translator, and it has to be fed over-the-air!"

That would actually be incorrect. These translators are completely within the primary signal contour of 97.3. The FCC refers to these as "fill-in translators." So-called "fill-in translators" may be fed by any means, and most are fed directly. In a sense, this is creating a loophole in FCC regulations. The theory behind allowing the "fill-in translators" to be fed by any means is that they're supposed to cover an area that's entitled to hear the station but, for whatever reason, can't. So, if the station can't be heard at the translator site, how is it supposed to be fed off-air?

These fill in translators seem an awful lot like full FM signals. Seems like a pretty big loophole for them to not even have to feed the HD-3 first before it feeds the translator. If they're using internet going from the primary (translator) to the secondary (HD) then the feed quality on the translator is far superior. It's a bit hypocritical of the FCC to allow that to happen when it's supposed to be the other way around.

I'll admit it's nice to have new formats in the market, but it does seem a tad unfair to the other groups. I wonder what Townsquare's feelings are on the matter.
 
Wilks' feelings might be hurt too, considering the fact that they branded 96.9 with the same name as 101.1!

On another note, HD translators seem to be becoming more common in markets. Check out the Atlanta area. They have a bunch of HD2 and HD3 translators! I'm sure DFW would be the same way if there were any open frequencies left.
 
DMcCloy said:
These fill in translators seem an awful lot like full FM signals.

Because translators don't have height limits, you can effectively give a translator about the same signal coverage as a class A FM. Of course, translators are still considered secondary services and are not allowed to interfere with other stations, and they're constrained by the primary signal contour of the originating station. Plus, 250 watts, which is a translators maximum power, can only do so much, but they can seem pretty impressive for what they are if they're on a tall enough stick.

Seems like a pretty big loophole for them to not even have to feed the HD-3 first before it feeds the translator.

I'd guess they're directly feeding both the translator and the HD3 at the same time, but they're not delaying the audio on the translator to match up with the HD3 signal. I'm not aware of any operators that feed translators of HD streams with over-the-air radios. In most cases, the digital streams are simply an afterthought. I believe, however, that the translators are still supposed to go off-air if the HD stream it's relaying goes down.

I'll admit it's nice to have new formats in the market, but it does seem a tad unfair to the other groups. I wonder what Townsquare's feelings are on the matter.

I wouldn't consider it even slightly unfair. The other operators in the market had every right to do the same thing and should've outbid Ramar for those translators if they wanted them badly enough. Translator ownership isn't subject to FCC ownership caps. Besides, Townsquare does the same thing, at least, in Albany. So, even if they're not happy about having a new competitor in Lubbock, any cries of "foul" would seem more than a tad out-of-place.
 
Well in San Antonio we have two translators which use HD2 signals as their primary station. Both definitely don't use the HD2 audio to feed the translators. The analog signals sound much better than the HD2 signals would ever sound.

I did hear a translator in Portland Oregon once that did actually use an off-air signal of an HD2 to feed their audio, and it sounded horrible! So the over-the-air feeds of HD signals don't work too well... Perhaps the Lubbock translators are doing the right thing in not using HD2 audio.
 
Translators are required to pick up the audio "off the air" when its a commercial translator being used by a non-commercial station to extend its range,,they can do that, put a translator outside of its 60 dBu, but they do have to pick it up off the air,,one was fined in the last month or two in Texas that was feeding such a translator by internet.
 
andydallas said:
Translators are required to pick up the audio "off the air" when its a commercial translator being used by a non-commercial station to extend its range,,they can do that, put a translator outside of its 60 dBu, but they do have to pick it up off the air,,one was fined in the last month or two in Texas that was feeding such a translator by internet.

Actually, it depends on what kind of translator it is. A "Fill In" translator can receive the signal by any means possible. Ditto for non commercial stations and translators that are in the reserved band.
 
Chuck, I'm talking about a non-fill in translator in the commercial band that the primary is a non-commercial,,they have to pick up off air (but with a directional antenna at 75' or so its amazing the quality of signal you can get.

I can't remember where the station was that got fined, somewhere in south texas (I call anything south of Waco south Texas)
 
Well I know one of the San Antonio translators (K229BJ in Hollywood Park) was notified for feeding it with Internet, don't think they were fined though.

In any case their Spanish Christian format went silent on July 18th, and they turned the antenna off a couple days later and that's the last I heard.



Why does the FCC have so many rules about feeding translators off-air? I would just think that relaying the audio of the main station would be enough.
 
Anonymouse said:
Why does the FCC have so many rules about feeding translators off-air? I would just think that relaying the audio of the main station would be enough.

Because they don't want commercial stations to build networks of translators far from the originating station.

The rules really aren't that confusing. Chuck, DG and I have mentioned that "fill-in" translators may be fed by any means excluding satellite. A "fill-in" translator has its entire signal contour within the service contour of the main station. FM translators that relay AM stations may be fed by any means, too, and are restricted to 25 miles from the transmitter and within the 2 mV/m contour.

Non-fill in translators at and above 92.1 must pick up the signal it relays over-the-air unless it gets a waiver. The FCC doesn't usually grant waivers unless the area the translator serves is unserved. There are a few of these in Alaska, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah and Nevada, but they're slowly disappearing as more stations get dropped in and more stations upgrade their coverage. I believe those translators operating under a waiver can be grandfathered in for at least some time.

Both fill-in and non-fill in translators below 92.1 may be fed by any means so long as they are owned by the licensee of the primary station, which is required to be non-commercial.
 
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