Oldies format enjoy a heavy return to strong FM`s!!!!!!!!!!!!

[landtuna]

Keep in mind that the music you hear on any metro area music FM is likely reserched locally, and the songs that are "too negative" are eliminated.

I've only been 'researched' only once in my life and that was by a country station I never listened to BUT....how would you even know a "negative" song if you never researched or played it? That's my point....how could a survey possibly properly cover the entire RnR genre?

As we move to having all the top 50 markets under PPM in the next two years, radio will be even more aware that a single mistake will drive listeners away, and they do not come back until the other station makes a mistake. So playing "oh wow" songs is likely to decrease as they are so, so dangerous.

I can't speak for what may or may not happen with PPM but if music radio doesn't change rather quickly there won't be enough of us "older folks" to measure at all. For the first time in my life I no longer listen to the radio...even in the car. I expect from comments on this board and other folks I know this isn't my choice alone. That said, there are very, very few songs I once listened to on the radio that would cause me to switch my listening habits for anything more than a few minutes. When I returned from Vietnam in '66 the Rolling Stones "Satisfaction" was the most recent annual #1 and I hated that song. Now, some 40 years later not only can I stand listening to it but actually play it on my own playlist.

"Mistakes", unless they are constant, probably won't affect listeners all that much as most of us, even in large metro areas, don't have but one or two stations to pick from within one genre.

But what is 70% of the listeners hate Freddy Cannon? The station, with research in hand, is not going to do that as very few will like the playing of Cannon, and many can easily go away.

Realistically, do listeners really hate one particular artist enough to switch stations? I can understand if KOOL played a rotation of Barbra Streisand or a bunch of bubblegum in their 60's Oldies, Most people would think it didn't fit. But hate? Well....OK....maybe bubblegum.

Since radio can not afford to specifically please you except as a fringe listener to a more under-55 format, there is no way that a song by Fats Domino will be played since one has to be at least in their 60's to have much fondness for it.

Two points:

1. I am 63 and retired and have more discretionary money to spend than at any other time in my life. Maybe not for P&G products but definitely for local services which seems to be most of the ads on radio.

2. My sons and daughters had never heard Fats Domino before they watched Forrest Gump. All they wanted to know after the movie was "who is that guy", not believing he was most popular in the late 50's. I now have three CD's of his music in my house, none bought by me. Much the same thing happened when one of my sons got interested in military history after joining the Marine Corps. His interest in WWII morphed into a love of Big Band/Swing, music he never heard before. And he was just out of his teens at that time.

My point, of course, is that playing music of a previous generation is somewhat risky but is more likely to spark an interest for most people (unless they are tweens or young teens whose "culture" won't permit deviation). I think I would trust the judgment of people (PD's or jocks) who live/lived the music rather than a hired gun who tries to be all things to all people. After all, the "experimentation" doesn't have to be done during drive time but rather when listeners are not using the radio as background noise.

When advertisers start seeking 55+ (and the trend is just the opposite) then radio will come after your with format offerings. Until then, just answer the question, "Who is going to pay for it?" and you will know why satellite and MP3 players are your best solution.

I'm not disagreeing with your summary, in fact, I agree with it. When radio quit serving me I bought myself a 30GB CD/MP3 player and live happily thereafter. But because I grew up with 1950's and 60's radio, when it was exciting, I still miss the connection a listener has with the on-air talent. I can deal with segmentation (all 60's all the time etc.) but can't deal with the overwhelming landslide of commercials and inane banter that is most of music radio today.

 

[davideduardo]

I've only been 'researched' only once in my life and that was by a country station I never listened to

All research uses the smallest viable sample. Usually, this is determined by doing several surverys and seeing what the lowest number of persons is that will give replication... same results on a different sample of the same size.

how would you even know a "negative" song if you never researched or played it? That's my point....how could a survey possibly properly cover the entire RnR genre?

First, no station is going to research 50 years of music. A station targeting 35-54 with classic hits will test songs from about '65 to '85 at most. Over the course of a few tests, the station will try, each time, a number of songs that intuitively may not test but might work. In several cases, I have tested more than 3000 songs over a couple of years.

I can't speak for what may or may not happen with PPM but if music radio doesn't change rather quickly there won't be enough of us "older folks" to measure at all.

Radio can not cater specifically to 55+ as there is no revenue there. It really does not matter to radio as a business if 55+ listen or not, in fact... but they do. And as much as 45-54, too. You see, Oldies is not even the favorite format of 55+ because formats like talk, AC, Country and others do just as well or better nationally.

"Mistakes", unless they are constant, probably won't affect listeners all that much as most of us, even in large metro areas, don't have but one or two stations to pick from within one genre.

The average PPM listener uses or hears 6 to 7 stations a week. In most cases, the ones listend to the most are in different genres, not the same. People have multiple choices based on mood, time of day, etc. So if a station makes a mistake, most listeners simply gpo to one of the numerous stations they also like.... and unlike the diary, the PPM al,ways picks this change up.

But what is 70% of the listeners hate Freddy Cannon? The station, with research in hand, is not going to do that as very few will like the playing of Cannon, and many can easily go away.

Realistically, do listeners really hate one particular artist enough to switch stations?

Generally, it's not the artist but the song that does it. And PPM data at the minute to minute granular level shows that indivuidual songs definitely cause listeners to leave, much more than commercials... they expect commer4cials, but not bad songs.

1. I am 63 and retired and have more discretionary money to spend than at any other time in my life. Maybe not for P&G products but definitely for local services which seems to be most of the ads on radio.

Maybe if you are in a much smaller market a station can survive on local direct alone. In most cases, the agency, ratings driven business is needed. Stations buy ratings to get this business, too. The agency buys dont care how much money you have... they care how much it is going to cost to get any segment of the population to buy the product, and then how much they make per sale. If there is more ad expense than profit, they don't address the group.

55+ takes more advertising per sale because folks have longer buying tradition. The same goes with beer... 21 to 34 Males is almost the entire target for the industry, since that is where 80% of the profits come from. Advertisers know where the profits are, and they don't advertise where the profits are lower or non-existent.

2. My sons and daughters had never heard Fats Domino before they watched Forrest Gump. All they wanted to know after the movie was "who is that guy", not believing he was most popular in the late 50's. I now have three CD's of his music in my house, none bought by me. Much the same thing happened when one of my sons got interested in military history after joining the Marine Corps. His interest in WWII morphed into a love of Big Band/Swing, music he never heard before. And he was just out of his teens at that time.

When I was about 15, I liked Ravel and Resphigi more than the Beatles. Anecdotally interesting, but in fact the number of 15 year old classical listeners was insignificant and the ones who liked the Beatles overwhelmingly huge.

I can deal with segmentation (all 60's all the time etc.) but can't deal with the overwhelming landslide of commercials and inane banter that is most of music radio today.

Isn't it funny how memory enhances the good things. In the 50's and 60's, the FCC had to have a rule that licencees showing over 18 minutes of commercials an hour in any hour of the composite week (a random sample of days during the prior 3 years) had to give some rather extensive explaining or they would not be renewed for the full 3 years if at all.

Why?

Because almost alll stations were selling close to 18 minutes, and would have sold more if allowed.

Today, the music FMs riun 10 to maybe 14 minutes on average, not 18. There is less talk, less commercials than in those days you recall so fondly.

 

[landtuna]

Isn't it funny how memory enhances the good things. In the 50's and 60's, the FCC had to have a rule that licencees showing over 18 minutes of commercials an hour in any hour of the composite week (a random sample of days during the prior 3 years) had to give some rather extensive explaining or they would not be renewed for the full 3 years if at all.

Why?

Because almost alll stations were selling close to 18 minutes, and would have sold more if allowed.

Today, the music FMs riun 10 to maybe 14 minutes on average, not 18. There is less talk, less commercials than in those days you recall so fondly.

I didn't keep track of minutes way back then but two things come to mind about commercials in the old days:

1. The DJ would read most of them, perhaps including a lead-in or ending jingle of some sort (product, not station). Some non-music station commercials were actually part of the broadcast ala Paul Harvey who would segue into commercial without taking a breath from his "news".

2. There was no such thing as 10 commercials back-to-back. You might have one or maybe two commercials between songs but not the long stream that occurs today. Advertisers should realize that having a dozen short commercials during one break frustrates listeners/viewers much more than one or two longer ones. And repeating the same commercial over and over again really causes me to hit the off button as I'm sure it does other people as well.

BTW, we were discussing music stations in this thread so I don't understand your comment that listeners will listen to "6 or 7" different stations in a set period. It's been my experience that most people prefer one genre over the others. In Phoenix for example we have a choice of KOOL (Classic Hits format) and KSLX (Classic Rock format) for similar music so a listener like me has only two choices (I'm leaving KAZG out of this because it is a daytimer and poor signal to boot). For Country there are also only two. Smooth Jazz is limited to one. etc. etc.

Maybe the PPM will tell you if I switch between say KOOL and KMLE (because KMLE has better traffic coverage during drive time) but I stay only to hear the report then pop back to my preferred genre. Seems like me listening to KMLE in very short segments isn't worth much (assuming I was in a target demo).

 

[davideduardo]

1. The DJ would read most of them, perhaps including a lead-in or ending jingle of some sort (product, not station). Some non-music station commercials were actually part of the broadcast ala Paul Harvey who would segue into commercial without taking a breath from his "news".

In the early 60's and early 70's (I was out of country from 63 to 70) I worked in R&B, Jazz, Oldies, Beautiful Music and CHR. Nearly all the commercials were recorded, except a few that would be live if the station had a famous talent.

Even if it was a small market... and I did summers in Northern Michigan... the spots were on carts, and very seldom live.

2. There was no such thing as 10 commercials back-to-back.

Of course not. There were no music sweeps. Generally there werre a couple of songs at most, and then a few spots. Some stations played 3 spots and two songs and repeated the pattern. Beautiful Music had four stopsets an hour. In the early 60's, 5 or 6 stops an hour was common.

You might have one or maybe two commercials between songs but not the long stream that occurs today.

That would mean 2 songs, two spots, every hour. Six or seven stops an hour. It's been proven that that creates more tuneout than just a couple of longer stops and then sweeps.

Advertisers should realize that having a dozen short commercials during one break frustrates listeners/viewers much more than one or two longer ones.

When did you research this, and what were the recruit specs (I have done it, and you are wrong.)

BTW, we were discussing music stations in this thread so I don't understand your comment that listeners will listen to "6 or 7" different stations in a set period. It's been my experience that most people prefer one genre over the others.

Were you subscribed to Arbitron, you could go to Maryland and see actual diaries. Listeners often are seen to put AC, Country and Oldies in a single diary. In fact, they may put Smooth Jazz, AC and a Jack like station in. Or a CHR, and AC and a rock derivitive. People mostly look for variety in their different choices, not the same exact thing.

In Phoenix for example we have a choice of KOOL (Classic Hits format) and KSLX (Classic Rock format) for similar music so a listener like me has only two choices (I'm leaving KAZG out of this because it is a daytimer and poor signal to boot). For Country there are also only two. Smooth Jazz is limited to one. etc. etc.

KOOL duplicates with, in order of amount of shared cume,

KESZ 26%
KSLX 24%
KMXP 12%
KYOT 18%
KNIX 15%
KTAR FM 15%
KPKX 14%
KMLE 12% (27% for country)
KDKB 11%

... and many more at 10% and below.

So you see, the KOOL listeners use lots of other stations. 55 even uses KZZP and 3% uses KKFR.

Maybe the PPM will tell you if I switch between say KOOL and KMLE (because KMLE has better traffic coverage during drive time) but I stay only to hear the report then pop back to my preferred genre. Seems like me listening to KMLE in very short segments isn't worth much (assuming I was in a target demo).

There are many P1s to KOOL who are P2 to KMLE and vice versa. Country and oldies / classic hits are one of the most usual cross cuming situations in 45+.

 

[Goodtimesandgreatoldies]

Oldies radio listeners want a huge playlist and good d.j.`s.

 

[surfdude]

"Oldies radio listeners want a huge playlist and good d.j.`s."

Not true!

The MAJORITY of Oldies listeners want to hear their favorite songs.

Oldies FANATICS want a huge playlist - they are the MINORITY.

Stations go broke and leave the format when they try to program to a very small
group of listeners.

 

[TheFonz]

Oldies radio listeners want a huge playlist and good d.j.`s.

Sounds like the recipe for satellite radio.

 

[semoochie]

David, you've lost me here: On the same page, you say you liked Ravel better than the Beatles, when you were about 15 but also state that at or before that time, you were working in various formats. I thought you had previously stated something that made me think you were around 68. The Beatles comment really threw me!

 

[davideduardo]

David, you've lost me here: On the same page, you say you liked Ravel better than the Beatles, when you were about 15 but also state that at or before that time, you were working in various formats. I thought you had previously stated something that made me think you were around 68. The Beatles comment really threw me!

I was off by a year, I think. When the Beatles hit the US (which I think was lDecember '63) I was 16. An import of "I wanna hold your hand" played almost a year to the day before I put my first station on the air... and we played the Beatles.

 

[Goodtimesandgreatoldies]

David, did you were you in a big time market? Did you know Robert W. morgan or the Real Don Steele?

 

[semoochie]

Thank you! I wasn't trying to be picky or anything. I just didn't understand and thought you could clear it up. That's quite an accomplishment at such a young age although I guess Kent Burkhart was less than 21 when he became a household name in the industry!

 

[semoochie]

Oops, wrong consutant! I meant to say Lee Abrams.

 

[davideduardo]

David, did you were you in a big time market? Did you know Robert W. morgan or the Real Don Steele?

Nope. I worked with Ron Jacobs, and still work for Tom Rounds on a side venture.

 

[KFodor]

Isn't it funny how memory enhances the good things. In the 50's and 60's, the FCC had to have a rule that licencees showing over 18 minutes of commercials an hour in any hour of the composite week (a random sample of days during the prior 3 years) had to give some rather extensive explaining or they would not be renewed for the full 3 years if at all.

Why?

Because almost alll stations were selling close to 18 minutes, and would have sold more if allowed.

Today, the music FMs riun 10 to maybe 14 minutes on average, not 18. There is less talk, less commercials than in those days you recall so fondly.

I didn't keep track of minutes way back then but two things come to mind about commercials in the old days:

1. The DJ would read most of them, perhaps including a lead-in or ending jingle of some sort (product, not station). Some non-music station commercials were actually part of the broadcast ala Paul Harvey who would segue into commercial without taking a breath from his "news".

2. There was no such thing as 10 commercials back-to-back. You might have one or maybe two commercials between songs but not the long stream that occurs today. Advertisers should realize that having a dozen short commercials during one break frustrates listeners/viewers much more than one or two longer ones. And repeating the same commercial over and over again really causes me to hit the off button as I'm sure it does other people as well.

BTW, we were discussing music stations in this thread so I don't understand your comment that listeners will listen to "6 or 7" different stations in a set period. It's been my experience that most people prefer one genre over the others. In Phoenix for example we have a choice of KOOL (Classic Hits format) and KSLX (Classic Rock format) for similar music so a listener like me has only two choices (I'm leaving KAZG out of this because it is a daytimer and poor signal to boot). For Country there are also only two. Smooth Jazz is limited to one. etc. etc.

Maybe the PPM will tell you if I switch between say KOOL and KMLE (because KMLE has better traffic coverage during drive time) but I stay only to hear the report then pop back to my preferred genre. Seems like me listening to KMLE in very short segments isn't worth much (assuming I was in a target demo).

10 commercials at a time...you must be listening to a Clear Channel station. That's the "secret" behind Less Is More. Commercial breaks are shorter (by, maybe a minute or so), but they're playing :60's,:30's, :15's, :10's, :05's, or blinks and are, thus playing about 10 "units" per break. Most companies do not do this.

But, you've just proven something many stations have seen: to a listener: a commercial is a commercial is a commercial. You probably don't pay attention to how many :60's or :30's are in a break, right? People want fewer "units".

That having been said, David's right about something: stations in the 60's and 70's played far more commercials than they do today. 18, 19, even (during political season) as many as 24 minutes of spots per hour. That's one of the reasons why FM exploded in the 70's. FM stations limited their commercials to no more than, about, 8 to 10 per hour. A big difference over AM Radio. And that's one of the reasons (sound quality being the other major one) FM overtook AM radio.

Problem today is: we're too far removed from the days of 18 plus minutes per hour for anyone to remember it.

But, I don't think radio stations can cut the spot load much below 8 minutes an hour and stay profitable. (Without some other revenue streams to compensate). So, an audience that constantly demands fewer spots may find themselves up against a brick wall.

Radio is free. You just have to tolerate some commercials to get it.

 

[semoochie]

It has been determined that the primary reason behind FM's early success is the FCC requirement to originate its own programming instead of simulcasting the AM. This created unique FM formats that took advantage of the band's strengths that enabled it to eventually gain parity with and later, surpass the older band.

 

[landtuna]

10 commercials at a time...you must be listening to a Clear Channel station. That's the "secret" behind Less Is More. Commercial breaks are shorter (by, maybe a minute or so), but they're playing :60's,:30's, :15's, :10's, :05's, or blinks and are, thus playing about 10 "units" per break. Most companies do not do this.

My example is taken from KOOL-FM here in Phoenix and just by chance I flipped it on about 6:50 this morning and listened until the "Hollywood Insider" segment ended at about 7:20. As I flipped it on John Michaels was giving the traffic report (which he always does very well despite being a bit fast) then it was 5-6 commercials and a song before the 7AM news (which usually has about 3 stories accompanied by total laughter at one of them. After the news another round of commercials followed by a 15-second weather forecast followed by the 10-in-a-row commercial set.

Although I like KOOL much better than any other station in the Valley (I am excluding KAZG from comparison here because it is an AM daytimer with a, you know, lousy signal) I cannot stand the rash of non-stop commercials, especially the aggravating car commercials (although those seem to be tapering off somewhat as the economy swirls around the drain).

But, you've just proven something many stations have seen: to a listener: a commercial is a commercial is a commercial. You probably don't pay attention to how many :60's or :30's are in a break, right? People want fewer "units".

Absolutely true.

That having been said, David's right about something: stations in the 60's and 70's played far more commercials than they do today. 18, 19, even (during political season) as many as 24 minutes of spots per hour. That's one of the reasons why FM exploded in the 70's. FM stations limited their commercials to no more than, about, 8 to 10 per hour. A big difference over AM Radio. And that's one of the reasons (sound quality being the other major one) FM overtook AM radio.

I have several hours of recorded radio from the mid to late 1960's and the only station that I would put in the "lots of commercials" category was Cousin Brucie on WABC-AM. Otherwise it was mostly music and, I assume, with the exception of KGO-FM (SF) live DJ's. Even Casey Kasem on KEWB's Nightly Countdown show did not have many commercials.

Problem today is: we're too far removed from the days of 18 plus minutes per hour for anyone to remember it.

Everybody forgets us old guys (and gals).

Radio is free. You just have to tolerate some commercials to get it.

The same thing is said about TV and along comes Tivo to eliminate most commercials. Radio doesn't have an equivalent so we just turn it off and go with our portable players.

 

[Goodtimesandgreatoldies]

Try True Oldies 106.7 FM WYAY out of Atlanta!!!! www.wyay.com. They play alot of great Oldies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[steve732]

Yep your right... Anybody over 50 has no money....except for all those who buy motor homes and million dollar homes and vacation homes and really really big ticket items...No they are dirt poor and and are hard of hearing..which is why they spend thousands on home theater every year...Dirt poor....except for those who have big investments, IRA's stocks.....No you are correct ALL the money is with the YOUNG People 18-35...Yep that the way it is ... Funny thing...Most Movies these days have a 60's music track in them somewhere....
Fact is, it's a corporate thing. trying to kill the Oldies market is the ONLY way they can force new music sales by new artists. They are under a lot of pressure from the record labels to push the new stuff for REVENUE....... They can't hardly do that if they are playing oldies...now can they ? Doesn't matter what the people want. Radio is no longer entertainment for the people...it';s all about sales..has been for many years now. If a huge conglomerate like Coca Cola wants to make a huge buy, the station will change it's format to accomodate them. Enter Sirius radio & Internet Radio... her's the new frontier. This is where variety and creativity live now....Right Cousin Brucie ???

 

[KFodor]

Yep your right... Anybody over 50 has no money....except for all those who buy motor homes and million dollar homes and vacation homes and really really big ticket items...No they are dirt poor and and are hard of hearing..which is why they spend thousands on home theater every year...Dirt poor....except for those who have big investments, IRA's stocks.....No you are correct ALL the money is with the YOUNG People 18-35...Yep that the way it is ... Funny thing...Most Movies these days have a 60's music track in them somewhere....
Fact is, it's a corporate thing. trying to kill the Oldies market is the ONLY way they can force new music sales by new artists. They are under a lot of pressure from the record labels to push the new stuff for REVENUE....... They can't hardly do that if they are playing oldies...now can they ? Doesn't matter what the people want. Radio is no longer entertainment for the people...it';s all about sales..has been for many years now. If a huge conglomerate like Coca Cola wants to make a huge buy, the station will change it's format to accomodate them. Enter Sirius radio & Internet Radio... her's the new frontier. This is where variety and creativity live now....Right Cousin Brucie ???

Sorry, but you're full of crap.

Do you actually work in a radio station? Have you ever sold air time?

Radio has always been about selling air time. And, when the advertisers tell you "we won't buy your station, because your audience is too old", we can talk all we want until you're blue in the face about the buying power of seniors, and the advertiser still says..."no buy". Believe me, it has been done. I've talked with actual advertisers and agency buyers. (No, I'm not a salesperson...I was PD of a #1 station 25-54 that lost 50 cents on a dollar, because the audience was largely over 45 with a huge 55 plus audience.) Advertisers use means other than radio to reach the 55 plus crowd. Change the advertiser's beliefs...and oldies will be on, well, at least until we're all dead and gone.

The radio business is about money. I won't apologize for that. But, not this "corporate" line of tripe some of you keep harping on here. If the original oldies format would get advertisers, I don't know of one person...at Clear Channel, at Cox, Citadel, Saga, CBS, Cumulus, name your favorite corporate entity who wouldn't be running it.

The ad money is just not there to support it.

Stop blaming radio. Radio is not the culprit.

And, oh yeah...when those satellite channels actually have to start making a buck...Cousin will be lookin for work, too for the very same reason.

 

[davideduardo]

Yep your right... Anybody over 50 has no money....except for all those who buy motor homes and million dollar homes and vacation homes and really really big ticket items...No they are dirt poor and and are hard of hearing..which is why they spend thousands on home theater every year...Dirt poor....except for those who have big investments, IRA's stocks.....No you are correct ALL the money is with the YOUNG People 18-35...Yep that the way it is ...

As has been said here dozens of times, the advertiser knows where the ROI is good and where it is bad. And older consumers have a bad ROI on advertising investments because they do not change habits as easily as those under 55. If it takes too many ad inpressions to create a sale, in many cases the profit on the sale is less than the cost of marketing.

Funny thing...Most Movies these days have a 60's music track in them somewhere....

The ones I see don't.

Fact is, it's a corporate thing. trying to kill the Oldies market is the ONLY way they can force new music sales by new artists. They are under a lot of pressure from the record labels to push the new stuff for REVENUE....... They can't hardly do that if they are playing oldies...now can they ?

Radio has nearly no relationship with the record industry, which is at present trying to wipe out the profitability of most stations in the US with new fees. As the Music Director of a major LA station had on his phone message, "if you are promoting music, you can hang up now."

Doesn't matter what the people want. Radio is no longer entertainment for the people...it';s all about sales..has been for many years now.

It's been that way since even before I built my first station... and that was 45 years ago.

If a huge conglomerate like Coca Cola wants to make a huge buy, the station will change it's format to accomodate them.

No, it won't. We design our formats to appeal to people who ad agencies and advertisers wish to reach. We have little if any dealings with Coke, but plenty of contact with their ad agency.

Enter Sirius radio & Internet Radio... her's the new frontier. This is where variety and creativity live now....Right Cousin Brucie ???

Yeah, those are wonderful examples that, together, have lost about a billion and a half dollars a year since 2002.