Oldies Just Ain't Coming Back

[DavidKaye]

Don't get your hopes up. Look how excited we were when KFRC came back. This board lit up like the 4th of July in anticipation of the grand return of the KFRC we all loved and remembered.

Which KFRC was that? The 60s? 70s? 80s? 90s? 00s? We're talking about some different KFRCs here. Some of them can't come back because they can't make any money.

Between 1998 and 2007 1960s oldies listening went from 1,232,300 to 279,300 listeners nationwide AQH 6am to midnight. WHOA! That's a 77% DROP in listeners! And about half that drop occurred in just 2 years, from 2005 to 2007. You don't believe it? Go check for yourself. Arbitron has a free report on it. Here's the URL: http://wargod.arbitron.com/scripts/ndb/fmttrends2.asp

Now, do you folks see why stations are reluctant to program oldies?

 

[radiogurl45]

I like DavidKaye more and more every day :-* lol

 

[airpab]

Just 60's indeed doesn't work. That's why the successful ones are doing blends of light 60's/heavy 70's/and even light 80's with this format. And you cannot argue with the success these stations are having:

KONO/San Antonio
KOOL/Phoenix
KRTH/LA
WCBS/NY
KOLA/Riverside-San Bernardino

To name just a few!

 

[mediawatch22]

Another reason for the drop in listeners to the format is that there were a LOT of oldies stations that went away. You can't listen to it unless it's available, correct? That means that your statistics about the drop in listenership is largely due to lack of product, not necessarily lack of potential listeners.

You're right, 60's/70's oldies is over. HOWEVER, late 60's/70's/early 80's oldies is fresh and getting a good response.

 

[LKellerIII]

Why is it that everytime a thread starts about the current KFRC playlist, or the poster is unhappy with the programming on KFRC for whatever reason, we have to hear:

1. "Oldies are not coming back."

2. "The Big 610/KFRC of the 70s is not coming back."

Please - I don't think anybody posting here with half a brain believes the old 60s early 70s Oldies format is coming back. That format with the short playlist was getting...well...old and boring. What the critics of the current KFRC (myself included) want to come back is some decent classic hits radio, along the lines of K-Earth or WCBS-FM. WCBS-FM did come back, and has MUCH better ratings than the supposedly hot "Jack" format that they blew up the original WCBS Oldies format for.

What these good stations play is a large playlist of upbeat pop and rock hits from the 60s, but mostly the 70s, and often into the 1980s. Instead of blowing up the old boring Oldies KRTH, CBS was smart enough (for once) to transition it smoothly into the much improved new format.

And nobody wants the old Top 40 KFRC back either. It was great, but it went away over 20 years ago, and would be as anachronistic today as vaccum tube radios were when the Big 610 hit the airwaves.

 

[1069_KIFR]

Another reason for the drop in listeners to the format is that there were a LOT of oldies stations that went away

Why do you think a LOT of oldies stations went away?....... Could it be because the listeners went away first?

Take another gander at DavidKayes post. Look at the numbers. Notice the HUGE drop in listeners. As a programmer, would you put out the same thing if no one was tuning in?

 

[mediawatch22]

The listeners did NOT necessarily go away by their own choice. CBS-FM had huge numbers (as an example) and yet they flippped it to Jack. Hence, more oldies listeners that went away. Not by the choice of the listeners, but by the choice of corporate.

The fact is that most oldies stations went away because the economics didn't allow the stations to pull in as much revenue as corporate required.

 

[therealjm12]

The listeners did NOT necessarily go away by their own choice.

In Rochester, N. Y. Entercom pulled the plug on WBBF 98.9 in the early 2000's. WBBF had huge numbers and pretty decent demos at the time. A lot of other stations in the market would have loved to have the ratings that BBF had. It has taken a long time to get back to where they were on that frequency but they had to add more oldies to the playlist to do it. It pretty much matched what CBS did with CBS-FM.
So it wasn't the listeners that abandoned the oldies in Rochester.

 

[flashback]

here in indianapolis wgld(104.5)an oldies station was number 5. it became jack -fm and later just wjjk, a classic rock station. obviously it wasn`t the listeners who turned away.it was the station owners who did not want that demographic.


too often the blame is put on lack of listeners and often, like in this case, it is not the case.

 

[skippertthomas]

When I was at 93.5 doing weekends and Oldies in E'ville, I saw the AQH bites coming down the line.. The audience that was targeted started to age and the format did not adjust..... If you want a certain median or mean age, you have to fine tune as time goes on..... A 43 year old this year is not the same 43 year old from five years ago... Our "Superhits 105.3" Regent station in the market has done quite well in their two year run of second generation oldies... It seems a smaller but loyal audience will support niche first generation oldies outlets that have a realistic expectation.... Then again, JACK works in some markets and not well in others...

 

[mailman ron]

Keep the oldies!!! What we're all craving are the personalities..........bring back Personality Radio!!!! Are there enough guys left that are original , clean, ironic, sarcastic and/or funny? Leave the music on MP3's and CD's...........ENTERTAIN ME , PLEASE !!! Carter B... Armstrong & Getty... Dan Sorkin.... Terry McGovern... Gene Nelson..

 

[radiotower40]

I know this is about oldies and I have to agree it needs to be "tweaked" and not thrown away all together, but I have to comment on
the Arbitron chart. Did you see the numbers for news and talk stations, that is the most steady market. It is a format that keeps
growing. In fact it is the most listened to format now.

 

[cyberdad]

Haven't we already established that most "traditional oldies" stations were/are drones? Between the ridiculously tight repetitive playlists, bored/unknowlegable/disconnected jocks, and an increasingly undesirable demo, the inevitable happened and most of them went away.

Good riddance!

If I want oldies, there's more than ever to choose from...and usually with better sound quality than ever....between internet streaming and my Ipod.

(I was going to include satellite radio as well, but these are becoming increasingly dumbed-down and the audio is terrible).

 

[Fastphilly]

I hear most ppl in here are talkin' about tweaking the playlist......As far as I'm concerned, these days with classic rock and classic R&B stations taking a piece of the pie from the traditional top 40 based oldies stations, I would move in a new direction as in Generation X'ers....Play a variety of hits, heavily focused between 1975-1985 , and add a little flavor of the early 70's on occasion.....With the exception of the Beatles, Motown, and some odds and ends hits, The 60's IMO have gone the way the late 50's and early 60's were pushed out 10-15 years ago from oldies formats...

 

[DavidKaye]

The listeners did NOT necessarily go away by their own choice. CBS-FM had huge numbers (as an example) and yet they flippped it to Jack. Hence, more oldies listeners that went away. Not by the choice of the listeners, but by the choice of corporate.

Station managements do not change formats at the drop of a CD. They put plenty of thought into it. After all, not only do they have to think about new airstaff, but they have to have a new logo drawn up, design a new advertising campaign to reach the listeners they want, design new marketing materials to reach the customers (advertisers) they want, and then wait while they lose the listeners and possibly the revenue they had.

One example is Bonneville. When they owned 96.5 KOIT and 95.7 KKDV "the Drive" (aka KZBR "the Bear", aka whatever) they first tried to position 95.7 to be the male complement of KOIT. KOIT was heavy in women, which was very good for them, and they figured if they could sell KOIT and 95.7 as a package to reach total adults 25-49, they'd have it made.

But KKDV didn't work. So, they reluctantly changed format and offered KZBR, a country format targeted not to men but to women. Their strategy became, "Well, if we can't get women and men to sell together, let's get as many women as we can." Thus, KZBR leaned heavily on music that appealed to 25-49 women who weren't into KOIT.

The change from KKDV to KZBR required everything I said: logo change, ad campaign change, and a different approach to advertisers. That change cost them a lot of money.

They gave it a noble try but it didn't really work, either. So, they changed to another format and then swapped stations with Entercom.

Now, Entercom comes back with another country format on 95.7, and I'm not privy to what their target demo is, but I'm sure there's a strategy just as valid in making still another format change for 95.7.

As I said, it's expensive to change formats. So, if it's not broken, management does not usually go about fixing things. They just pray that nobody breathes too heavily and knocks down their house of cards. Formats are changed because the previous format was not working -- the station was unable to get the demos they wanted or advertisers balked at the format for whatever reason.

 

[scooty430]

If you want the best oldies ever, listen to WLNG online. They have a library of 10,000 songs, all selected on the spot by actual DJs, playing actual CDs and carts (yes, carts) and they've been doing it since 1963. Tons of local Long Island ads and weather during the day, but at night it's lots of music, early 50s through the late 80s, popular, forgotten, obscure, and otherwise. And a whole boat load of jingles.

I believe they make a pile of money too, by the way....


PS - I live in LA, am smack dab in the middle of the "desired demo," and K-Earth is still boring, boring, boring. Playing Dancing Queen ten times a day is no better than playing Brown Eyed Girl ten times a day. It ain't what you want up there.

 

[mediawatch22]

DavidKaye apparently has waaaaay too much confidence in the upper management of radio! By saying that radio stations don't just drop successful formats for no apparent reason is WRONG! Joel Hollander made some major mistakes with CBS stations during his time in the chair and look what happened. Now Dan Mason is back in charge and the mistakes are starting to be "undone". One thing I'm finding very disappointing about CBS is the fact that the PD's are having to double up and program two radio stations. In most cases the station that they have had to add to their plate is a direct competitor! Now, you tell me....if you had an additional station to program that was going after the same audience as yours which of the two do you think would get the most favorable attention?

Clear Channel had a number of very profitable/successful stations and they dropped the formats just because it didn't fit into their business model. The formats they opted to flip to (in many cases) were NOT as successful as the ones they dropped!

Look at what Cumulus has done to some of their recent big market aquisitions. They fire the programmers and talent that got the station the big numbers and strip it down to a shadow of itself. I guess that's what makes the stockholders happy.

John McCain said several years ago that he disapproved of the deregulation that happened in the mid 90's and wanted to reverse it. If that's still on his adgenda, he's got my vote!

 

[davideduardo]

If you want the best oldies ever, listen to WLNG online. They have a library of 10,000 songs, all selected on the spot by actual DJs, playing actual CDs and carts (yes, carts) and they've been doing it since 1963. Tons of local Long Island ads and weather during the day, but at night it's lots of music, early 50s through the late 80s, popular, forgotten, obscure, and otherwise. And a whole boat load of jingles.

A perfect example of good small town radio in a market of 120,000.

I believe they make a pile of money too, by the way....

They gross about $1.2 million. The profit, after expenses, can not be very big.

 

[davideduardo]

By saying that radio stations don't just drop successful formats for no apparent reason is WRONG! Joel Hollander made some major mistakes with CBS stations during his time in the chair and look what happened.

Free FM ended up being unsuccessful, but was not what I would call a mistake. It was a gamble that did not pay off, but at least it was an attempt to do a unique kind of talk format on FM. WCBS FM was an error in the sense that the negative PR was damaging. As to ratings, Jack was about where the reinvented classic oldies format is in 25-54, so as far as ratings there was no mistake. I see lots of stumbles, but not major mistakes.

One thing I'm finding very disappointing about CBS is the fact that the PD's are having to double up and program two radio stations. In most cases the station that they have had to add to their plate is a direct competitor!

If it's in your building, it is not a competitor. It's kind of amazing that we have had clusters in the same market for 12 years now, and most companies and programmers don't understand how to run them. In places in the world where there has been clustering for 50 years, you see one PD over 5 or 6 stations, and lots of overlap between them in style and songs.

Now, you tell me....if you had an additional station to program that was going after the same audience as yours which of the two do you think would get the most favorable attention?

Both. As long as each has a distinct quality, whether in music, talent or lifestyle, that is easy. I did 6 overlapping stations in one market in the 60's and had no trouble, as we said to the agencies, making each one number one in its style.

Clear Channel had a number of very profitable/successful stations and they dropped the formats just because it didn't fit into their business model. The formats they opted to flip to (in many cases) were NOT as successful as the ones they dropped!

Are you judging success by ratings? Wrong... very often a format with lower 12+ wll garner more revenue due to its bettered demos.

 

[davideduardo]

I know this is about oldies and I have to agree it needs to be "tweaked" and not thrown away all together, but I have to comment on
the Arbitron chart. Did you see the numbers for news and talk stations, that is the most steady market. It is a format that keeps
growing. In fact it is the most listened to format now.

Keep in mind that the published Arbitron data is 12+. The sales demos are between 18 and 54. In most markets, the news / talk audience is half or more over 55+, and not of much value sales-wise.