Oldies on AM?

[RonBastone]

Since Oldies is now a format hole in the market I'm wondering why one of the AM stations with a decent signal doesn't go after it. The oldies show on WABC is getting good response and bringing back the traditional CBS-FMesque oldies format with some 50's and early 60's in the mix---along with mid-late 60's and some 70's---to one of these AM's would make good revenue and ratings sense. There are a few AM signals that it would work on and I believe that the potential revenues would be a big plus for some of these stations. bring back some of the old jocks and do it. It works on AM and the sheer number of bodies who were abandoned by the CBS-FM change makes a terrific base! I'm thinking:

WMCA 570. The billing and ratings would, I believe be a solid boost for this signal.

WEPN 1050. WFAN kills them in sports and this format change would make financial sense.

WBBR 1130. Would love to see it on this signal as I think it would bill more than the present but tough to see Bloomberg changing this.

WOR 710. I know this might be a big departure but this station has seen declining revenues and ratings over the past few years. maybe an oldies format would shake it up and make it more viable long-term.

My thoughts. It seems that the AM owners in town are not taking advantage of the obvious potential this could bring in ad revenues. What do you think?

 

[Radio411]

Simply Put..."Oldies Listeners" were the very cause of death to their music in New York City and several other markets around the US. I mean they MAY ACTUALLY HAVE the financial resources and live comfortably, but honestly if they aren't going to spend and advertisers aren't seeing a return on their investment then I really cannot blame them (the stations and parent companies) for throwing in the towel and going after something new. WABC doing the Saturday night show is great but to do it 100% of the time would certainly lose some allure for sure. They did it right, one night a week and for just the right amount of time. Their killer signal certainly helps.

The other stations that you mentioned could surely be successful at the "oldies" format if executed correctly and backed by a "Top Notch" sales-staff that KNOWS the product that they are selling. The only station on your list that I would NOT want to see go ALL Oldies would be WEPN. The very reason they are here in the NYC Metro is to have a presence in the NYC market and nothing really more. In addition their signal is really nothing to write home about and severely nulled and directional so many folks would NOT benefit from oldies on 1050. Why do you think the Knicks and Rangers picked up WMTR 1250AM as an affiliate to compensate for the shoddy signal!?

I DO personally think that ANY station that did a switcheroo to Oldies would see an initial increase in listenership and sampling but long-term they would find themselves right back where CBS-FM was.

Thoughts??

 

[autopaint-1]

"Simply Put..."Oldies Listeners" were the very cause of death
> to their music in New York City and several other markets
> around the US. I mean they MAY ACTUALLY HAVE the financial
> resources and live comfortably, but honestly if they aren't
> going to spend and advertisers aren't seeing a return on
> their investment then I really cannot blame them"


Where did you get the idea that "Oldies" listeners didn't support the advertisers on Oldies Stations? Before the switch WCBS FM (for instance) had the previous year billed over 30 million dollars. That doesn't sound shoddy to me. The reason for the format change was that they were afraid of losing format of the month Jack to someone else (Can you say Jammin'?)and the greed factor told them that they should be earning more and the 30 million (and recent downward sales trend) wasn't good enough. The genious at Infinity/CBS radio who chose to dump the format will see a major loss in income in the year 2006. Let's see, three Infinity/CBS radio FM's in NYC and 3 dogs. What a batting record.

If you want to see loyalty, check out the willingness of "oldies" music supporters to send money to PBS when they have their fund raisers.

>
"I DO personally think that ANY station that did a switcheroo
> to Oldies would see an initial increase in listenership and
> sampling but long-term they would find themselves right back
> where CBS-FM was."

They should only hope so. The problem stems from kids who work at the agencies not understanding or wishing to learn about the buying habits of people in my age group, (I am 49) Baby Boomers.
>
> Thoughts??
>

 

[RonBastone]

Bob is right....CBS-FM was billing about $30 mil. I go back to my original point...even if one of these AM stations didn't bill quite as much as the old CBS-FM...I would bet $15-20mil is a huge increase from what they are doing now. That alone makes the decision a no-brainer for one of these AM stations.

 

[Radio411]

> Bob is right....CBS-FM was billing about $30 mil. I go back
> to my original point...even if one of these AM stations
> didn't bill quite as much as the old CBS-FM...I would bet
> $15-20mil is a huge increase from what they are doing now.
> That alone makes the decision a no-brainer for one of these
> AM stations.
>

If so...Then WHY HASN'T it been done ALREADY if it is such a "No Brainer!?" Apparently "status-quo" is fine with these stations.

 

[Indielover]

WMCA would be a great choice for this..however it will never happen as long as religious nuts (salem) own it...

 

[wxctintern]

I know their signals arent that great but what about WLIB or WWRL?

 

[davideduardo]

> Since Oldies is now a format hole in the market I'm
> wondering why one of the AM stations with a decent signal
> doesn't go after it. The oldies show on WABC is getting
> good response and bringing back the traditional CBS-FMesque
> oldies format with some 50's and early 60's in the
> mix---along with mid-late 60's and some 70's---to one of
> these AM's would make good revenue and ratings sense. There
> are a few AM signals that it would work on and I believe
> that the potential revenues would be a big plus for some of
> these stations. bring back some of the old jocks and do it.
> It works on AM and the sheer number of bodies who were
> abandoned by the CBS-FM change makes a terrific base! I'm
> thinking:
>
> WMCA 570. The billing and ratings would, I believe be a
> solid boost for this signal.

This is a conrnerstone to the Salem national format array. No way this happens unless Salem sells. Which is not going to happen.

>
> WEPN 1050. WFAN kills them in sports and this format change
> would make financial sense.

ESPN 1050 is the cornerstone of the marketing plan for ESPN sports branding. It does not have to make money. They consider it an ad expenditure to enhance the brand. Never.
>
> WBBR 1130. Would love to see it on this signal as I think
> it would bill more than the present but tough to see
> Bloomberg changing this.

This is a specific enhancement for the Bloomberg Financial network in NY. It is also a key to a brand. It does not have t make money.
>
> WOR 710. I know this might be a big departure but this
> station has seen declining revenues and ratings over the
> past few years. maybe an oldies format would shake it up
> and make it more viable long-term.

Still a very profitable station with huge billing. This format is a lot easier to sell than oldies, and an AM oldies would get ooooooold demos.

 

[davideduardo]

>
> Where did you get the idea that "Oldies" listeners didn't
> support the advertisers on Oldies Stations? Before the
> switch WCBS FM (for instance) had the previous year billed
> over 30 million dollars. That doesn't sound shoddy to me.

It was very shoddy. The billing was off by about 20% since 1999, and the market is up about that amount. So the station was behind the market by 40% over the last 7 years. In other words, dying, and at a faster rate every year.

> The reason for the format change was that they were afraid
> of losing format of the month Jack to someone else (Can you
> say Jammin'?)and the greed factor told them that they should
> be earning more and the 30 million (and recent downward
> sales trend) wasn't good enough.

It was change now and have time to develop a new format or change later when the options might not have been as attractive.

> The genious at Infinity/CBS
> radio who chose to dump the format will see a major loss in
> income in the year 2006. Let's see, three Infinity/CBS radio
> FM's in NYC and 3 dogs. What a batting record.

At least they are trying to change the direction. Where they were, they would have been off another 10% or so in 2006.
>
> If you want to see loyalty, check out the willingness of
> "oldies" music supporters to send money to PBS when they
> have their fund raisers.

That is because more of them listen to PBS than oldies, and causes get more donations than music. In fact, note that the PBS stations running jazz or classical have mostly gone talk, as music does not get donations.
>
> >
> "I DO personally think that ANY station that did a
> switcheroo
> > to Oldies would see an initial increase in listenership
> and
> > sampling but long-term they would find themselves right
> back
> > where CBS-FM was."
>
> They should only hope so. The problem stems from kids
> who work at the agencies not understanding or wishing to
> learn about the buying habits of people in my age group, (I
> am 49) Baby Boomers.
> >
> > Thoughts??
> >
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Radio Joke

> I know their signals arent that great but what about WLIB or
> WWRL?

- Hey, boss! I have an idea for you!

- Sure. Whatcha got?

- Let´s do music on the AM station!

- You're fired!!!!
>

 

[1290wgli]

> It was very shoddy. The billing was off by about 20% since
> 1999, and the market is up about that amount. So the station
> was behind the market by 40% over the last 7 years. In other
> words, dying, and at a faster rate every year.

This sounds like the same logic from an episode of "All In The Family"

Archie buys what he thinks is a $200 watch for $20. It breaks. When he finds out the watch is only worth $10, he thinks he's out $180, so he actually thinks it's logical to spend $25 to fix a $10 watch to recoup the $200 investment.

 

[mwebster]

> >
> > If you want to see loyalty, check out the willingness of
> > "oldies" music supporters to send money to PBS when they
> > have their fund raisers.
>
> That is because more of them listen to PBS than oldies, and
> causes get more donations than music. In fact, note that the
> PBS stations running jazz or classical have mostly gone
> talk, as music does not get donations.
> >
> > >

Are you talking about PBS (a television network) or NPR (a radio network)?
On radio, news and information pulls pledges at about three times the rate of music programming. On TV, nostalgia music programming is a pledge week staple. But what PBS stations runs during pledge periods (i.e., nostalgia music, old movies, self-help gurus)is largely different from what they run during normal periods.

> They should only hope so. The problem stems from kids
> who work at the agencies not understanding or wishing to
> learn about the buying habits of people in my age group, (I
> am 49) Baby Boomers.

BULL! You don't know what the !@#$ you are talking about. Consumer behavior is highly researched and documented. Decisions on advertising strategy are not make by "kids" or even by ad agencies (ad agencies have clients). You are engaging in wishful thinking to the point of self-delusion. Guess what! When full service AM stations were flipping to top 40 40-50 years ago, your parents were saying the same thing you are now.

 

[davideduardo]

> > >
> > > If you want to see loyalty, check out the willingness of
>
> > > "oldies" music supporters to send money to PBS when they
>
> > > have their fund raisers.
> >
> > That is because more of them listen to PBS than oldies,
> and
> > causes get more donations than music. In fact, note that
> the
> > PBS stations running jazz or classical have mostly gone
> > talk, as music does not get donations.
> > >
> > > >
>
> Are you talking about PBS (a television network) or NPR (a
> radio network)?

Sorry. Of course I meant NPR. I tend to get things with acronyms and call letters confused. Must come from being in a sector where acronyms are uncommon and call letters are not used to identify stations.

> On radio, news and information pulls pledges at about three
> times the rate of music programming.

And that was what I was referring to. Thanks for pointing out the error.

>
> > They should only hope so. The problem stems from kids
> > who work at the agencies not understanding or wishing to
> > learn about the buying habits of people in my age group,
> (I
> > am 49) Baby Boomers.
>
> BULL! You don't know what the !@#$ you are talking about.
> Consumer behavior is highly researched and documented.
> Decisions on advertising strategy are not make by "kids" or
> even by ad agencies (ad agencies have clients). You are
> engaging in wishful thinking to the point of self-delusion.
> Guess what! When full service AM stations were flipping to
> top 40 40-50 years ago, your parents were saying the same
> thing you are now.
>

That comment was not mine. It was that of the previous poster... I think we have both said about the same thing. Ad agenies follow the advertiser´s dictates and marketing plans.

 

[davideduardo]

> > It was very shoddy. The billing was off by about 20% since
>
> > 1999, and the market is up about that amount. So the
> station
> > was behind the market by 40% over the last 7 years. In
> other
> > words, dying, and at a faster rate every year.
>
> This sounds like the same logic from an episode of "All In
> The Family"
>
> Archie buys what he thinks is a $200 watch for $20. It
> breaks. When he finds out the watch is only worth $10, he
> thinks he's out $180, so he actually thinks it's logical to
> spend $25 to fix a $10 watch to recoup the $200 investment.
>

CBS FM off 20% against its own billing 7 years back.
Market, with CBS FM averaged in, up 20%. The average station should have increased at least 20% over the 7 years. The spread for CBS is 20% behind itslef, and no growth. Lags market by 40%. costs increased, rates elsewhere increased. Pending disaster.

 

[1290wgli]

>
> CBS FM off 20% against its own billing 7 years back.
> Market, with CBS FM averaged in, up 20%. The average station
> should have increased at least 20% over the 7 years. The
> spread for CBS is 20% behind itslef, and no growth. Lags
> market by 40%. costs increased, rates elsewhere increased.
> Pending disaster.
>

You people never cease to amaze with you knowledge of numbers and little else. Come on David, tell me more. How about the simplistic breakdown of subset demos in the 34.5 year olds who buy Toyota's over Ford's but like their eggs scrambled only on Sunday with Jam on toast on Saturday (making sure they use white, whole wheat only on Sunday).

If you look at the market, the 34.5 year old spends 20% more listening to WKTU as opposed to the 10% he spent listening to Hot 97. Therefore, we can surmise that the 34.5 year old with the increased budget to spend 20% more listening to WKTU must have better luck playing the horses over same the 34.5 year old who listens to Hot 97. Therefore, NYRA better advertise with WKTU.

You don't want the numbers for the 26.8 year old... will spin your head.

 

[davideduardo]

> >
> > CBS FM off 20% against its own billing 7 years back.
> > Market, with CBS FM averaged in, up 20%. The average
> station
> > should have increased at least 20% over the 7 years. The
> > spread for CBS is 20% behind itslef, and no growth. Lags
> > market by 40%. costs increased, rates elsewhere increased.
>
> > Pending disaster.
> >
>
> You people never cease to amaze with you knowledge of
> numbers and little else. Come on David, tell me more. How
> about the simplistic breakdown of subset demos in the 34.5
> year olds who buy Toyota's over Ford's but like their eggs
> scrambled only on Sunday with Jam on toast on Saturday
> (making sure they use white, whole wheat only on Sunday).

Lets say you made $50,000 in 1999. You have not had a raise since 1998.And the cost of living has gone up about 3% every year since then, so the $50 grand has the purchasing power of $40,000 1999 dollars today. Then every year, the boss cuts your wages by 3% due to cost cutting. So you now make $30,000 1999 dollars. Are you happy? Neither were the follks who own CBS FM.

 

[1290wgli]

>
> Lets say you made $50,000 in 1999. You have not had a raise
> since 1998.And the cost of living has gone up about 3% every
> year since then, so the $50 grand has the purchasing power
> of $40,000 1999 dollars today. Then every year, the boss
> cuts your wages by 3% due to cost cutting. So you now make
> $30,000 1999 dollars. Are you happy? Neither were the follks
> who own CBS FM.
>


I don't know why I bother to reply, probably only to hear how "right" you are and how you come on these boards and shove it down everyone's throats. I know it pisses you off because you're too high on your horse to see the ground.

I don't need to flaunt my accomplishments with a website dedicated to how wonderful everything I did was or how I programmed 10,000 stations with 20 songs. If these people want to post what they're thinking or what they would do if they had the financial resources, let them. What the hell is it to you? All we ever hear from you is how wrong wrong wrong everything is. Don't you have a format to fu*k up somewhere with a sea of numbers and no common sense?

 

[davideduardo]

>
>
> I don't know why I bother to reply, probably only to hear
> how "right" you are and how you come on these boards and
> shove it down everyone's throats. I know it pisses you off
> because you're too high on your horse to see the ground.
>
> I don't need to flaunt my accomplishments with a website
> dedicated to how wonderful everything I did was or how I
> programmed 10,000 stations with 20 songs. If these people
> want to post what they're thinking or what they would do if
> they had the financial resources, let them. What the hell
> is it to you? All we ever hear from you is how wrong wrong
> wrong everything is. Don't you have a format to fu*k up
> somewhere with a sea of numbers and no common sense?
>

Gee, I´m sorry you do not like to face reality. Anyone who has a business that is declining, and probably close to the pint of losing money, is going to change it.

You are right... I _will_ correct posts where I se a misrepresentation of fact or a point of view that begs to be discussed with contrasting viewpoints. And I have received many, many e-mails over the last few years of participation here showing appreciation of my posting of facts and introducing the point of view of a person who has been in a variety of formats, market sizes and even countries.

That said... the fact still remains for anyone to see that CBS FM was dropping every year in revenues, while the market was gaining. When an airplane does that, it crashes. Pilots try to avoid this by course correction. Infinity tried to do this by format correction.

Oh, and no, I don't have a format to mess up. But I have messed up a couple, and that is part of the learning process.

 

[radio009]

> That said... the fact still remains for anyone to see that
> CBS FM was dropping every year in revenues, while the market
> was gaining. When an airplane does that, it crashes. Pilots
> try to avoid this by course correction. Infinity tried to do
> this by format correction.
TOO BAD THAT PLANE COULDN'T BE CORRECTED AND ALREADY CRASHED AND BURNED


A bad mistake on Infinity's part jack is a failure and a mistake period
If you are from NY then you know how inportant cbs-fm was. radio in NY was cbs-fm no offense but i don't think you realize that. if you can't hear NY radio every day or if you have just sampled NY stations on certain ocassions you can't appreciate the legacy CBS-fm 30+ YEARS I'm sorry it was a little diffrent than your other oldies station.

Yes i know the demos issues but 34 million is a dam good billing amount I don't care if the market is increasing or if they were down 40% or whatever these numbers mean that are being presented. yes the billing was higher at one time but to take a station which AT THE TIME of the switch which was still billing well and switch the format was crazy! you CAN NOT HAVE predicted the future of CBS-fm PERIOD


With all due respect I realize you don't like oldies radio it is clear all your posts about oldies staions are negative you talk about and how bad the billing is and this and that. Oldies radio does have demos issues but that dosn't make them still completly unprofitable.
If you don't like oldies radio which you don't just don't listen that's it
If you liked oldies radio you would be more optimistic and state the positives about it

with all due respect it's enough with the negative attitude towards oldies radio

 

[mightynine]

> > That said... the fact still remains for anyone to see that
>
> > CBS FM was dropping every year in revenues, while the
> market
> > was gaining. When an airplane does that, it crashes.
> Pilots
> > try to avoid this by course correction. Infinity tried to
> do
> > this by format correction.
> TOO BAD THAT PLANE COULDN'T BE CORRECTED AND ALREADY CRASHED
> AND BURNED
>
>
> A bad mistake on Infinity's part jack is a failure and a
> mistake period
> If you are from NY then you know how inportant cbs-fm was.
> radio in NY was cbs-fm no offense but i don't think you
> realize that. if you can't hear NY radio every day or if you
> have just sampled NY stations on certain ocassions you can't
> appreciate the legacy CBS-fm 30+ YEARS I'm sorry it was a
> little diffrent than your other oldies station.
>
> Yes i know the demos issues but 34 million is a dam good
> billing amount I don't care if the market is increasing or
> if they were down 40% or whatever these numbers mean that
> are being presented. yes the billing was higher at one time
> but to take a station which AT THE TIME of the switch which
> was still billing well and switch the format was crazy! you
> CAN NOT HAVE predicted the future of CBS-fm PERIOD
>
>
> With all due respect I realize you don't like oldies radio
> it is clear all your posts about oldies staions are negative
> you talk about and how bad the billing is and this and that.
> Oldies radio does have demos issues but that dosn't make
> them still completly unprofitable.
> If you don't like oldies radio which you don't just don't
> listen that's it
> If you liked oldies radio you would be more optimistic and
> state the positives about it
>
> with all due respect it's enough with the negative attitude
> towards oldies radio

With all due respect, I haven't seen one person actually offer up a counterargument to DE's points based on anything resembling a fact.

Are you really expecting anyone to consider this to be a counterargument? All it is is you sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la not listening!"