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Omnia 5EX distorted voices

D

deejens

This is my first post on this board, so I'm saying HELLO to everyone.

I am running an Omnia 5EX on our HipHop/R&B station in Europe. Started with checking all the presets, ended with the CHR Dense. This was for me the most consistent preset, tweaked it a little to get rid off the massive Omnia Bass. I'm sorry, but compared to the other stations this amount of bass is a little strange.

From that point, I am now firing up the unit, getting the most loudness without the disadvantage of highly distorted sound. The problem I have is that talent voices are distorted, especially the first word of a sentence. The attack seems to be not fast enough. Tried to increase the Gate Threshold to keep the processing window at this level. Also increasing the attack-speed etc. etc. But without any luck. The only thing which works in decreasing the Clipper drive, but you know what happens then, decreasing of loudness.

Hopefully there's anyone who can help me with this unit? Placing something in front of it, tweak my settings?

Regards,

Deej
 
Call Mark Manolio at Telos-Omnia. They are and he is end user friendly.
 
I've noticed with my Omnia 3 that voices sound just a little "clipped" if you use the recommended settings on input levels. I backed the inputs way down, and made up the difference inside the digital part of the processing.

Remember voice peaks can be 10~15 db higher than music, so you have to be careful going into the A/D converter. Any A/D converter has an absoulute level that just flat-tops the signal. Unlike the input stages of older analog processors.
 
> I've noticed with my Omnia 3 that voices sound just a little
> "clipped" if you use the recommended settings on input
> levels. I backed the inputs way down, and made up the
> difference inside the digital part of the processing.
>
> Remember voice peaks can be 10~15 db higher than music, so
> you have to be careful going into the A/D converter. Any
> A/D converter has an absoulute level that just flat-tops the
> signal. Unlike the input stages of older analog processors.
>

On our 3Turbo, we also had to lower the input levels to keep the clippers from being hit way too hard. However, the box is so good, as stated above, you can compensate for the lower input levels by adjustments in the box. In fact, lowering the input levels made a world of difference in the overall balance and quality of all the presets. We're running a heavily tweaked CHR/PHAT setting -- with the bass backed way down and the highs cranked a bit. Your mileage may vary, we think these last tweaks were necessary because of our particular exciter.
 
Actually, I don't think it's any kind of deliberate clipping circuit, it's simply runing into the absolute limit on the A/D converter.
 
> Actually, I don't think it's any kind of deliberate clipping
> circuit, it's simply runing into the absolute limit on the
> A/D converter.
>

I guess the question would be whether the input scale should be recalibrated to more realistically reflect the "real world" input levels?
 
> > Actually, I don't think it's any kind of deliberate
> clipping
> > circuit, it's simply runing into the absolute limit on the
>
> > A/D converter.
> >
>
> I guess the question would be whether the input scale should
> be recalibrated to more realistically reflect the "real
> world" input levels?
> what inputs are you using on the Omnia, the analog or the AES??i am using the AES and never had the problem of distorted voices.and i run the input where Omnia suggests.how low of a input are some of you other Omnia users running and what inputs are you using.
 
> > > Actually, I don't think it's any kind of deliberate
> > clipping
> > > circuit, it's simply runing into the absolute limit on
> the
> >
> > > A/D converter.
> > >
> >
> > I guess the question would be whether the input scale
> should
> > be recalibrated to more realistically reflect the "real
> > world" input levels?
> > what inputs are you using on the Omnia, the analog or the
> AES??i am using the AES and never had the problem of
> distorted voices.and i run the input where Omnia
> suggests.how low of a input are some of you other Omnia
> users running and what inputs are you using.
>

I run my turbo 3 at anywhere between -10 and -15 db gain reduction, to keep levels consistent. I am using a modified "Dense" setting, with a little more high end being sent to the limiters, with quite a bit of compression through the agc sections. I'm getting a really loud, dense sound that isn't too much for the listeners. We still sound open, and don't really have the artifact of clipping. Every now and then, but not all that often.

I agree...back down your input until the clipping goes away. You are banging the absolute top of the a/d converter. Be careful...you won't notice it immediately as you are turning the knob.

<P ID="signature">______________
Zach Morton
Chief Engineer
Basin Radio Network
Gillette, Wyoming</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Zach Morton on 07/06/05 02:23 AM.</FONT></P>
 
> > > Actually, I don't think it's any kind of deliberate
> > clipping
> > > circuit, it's simply runing into the absolute limit on
> the
> >
> > > A/D converter.
> > >
> >
> > I guess the question would be whether the input scale
> should
> > be recalibrated to more realistically reflect the "real
> > world" input levels?
> > what inputs are you using on the Omnia, the analog or the
> AES??i am using the AES and never had the problem of
> distorted voices.and i run the input where Omnia
> suggests.how low of a input are some of you other Omnia
> users running and what inputs are you using.
>

I'm running the analog inputs. We're all analog with the exception of our fiber-optic link to transmitter room 12 stories up.
 
Although there are external possibilities for the distortion, a call to Cleveland would be in order.

(External possibilities would include over-modulation of the transmitter. Easy to get involved in tweaking & start over-deviating since the unit is transparent, unless you have a mod monitor you are watching at the same time.

Also possible, though I doubt it, that there is some kind of transmitter problem. Have read of problems with some of the digital exciters, particular the Harris Digit, creating artifacts because of reconversion of digital signals fed into them.
 
> I guess the question would be whether the input scale should
> be recalibrated to more realistically reflect the "real
> world" input levels?

I would agree, although it seems our orignal poster is using the AES inputs. That would seem to eliminate clipping in the initial A/D converter, and, for that matter, his chain up to the input (unless some gremlins have crept in). The problem then would be set-up interactions inside the digital processing (which Omn ia would be helpful with) or some kind of problem subsequent to and external from the Omnia (unlikely, but not impossible)
 
> This is my first post on this board, so I'm saying HELLO to
> everyone.
>
> I am running an Omnia 5EX on our HipHop/R&B station in
> Europe. Started with checking all the presets, ended with
> the CHR Dense. This was for me the most consistent preset,
> tweaked it a little to get rid off the massive Omnia Bass.
> I'm sorry, but compared to the other stations this amount of
> bass is a little strange.
>
> From that point, I am now firing up the unit, getting the
> most loudness without the disadvantage of highly distorted
> sound. The problem I have is that talent voices are
> distorted, especially the first word of a sentence. The
> attack seems to be not fast enough. Tried to increase the
> Gate Threshold to keep the processing window at this level.
> Also increasing the attack-speed etc. etc. But without any
> luck. The only thing which works in decreasing the Clipper
> drive, but you know what happens then, decreasing of
> loudness.
>
> Hopefully there's anyone who can help me with this unit?
> Placing something in front of it, tweak my settings?
>
> Regards,
>
> Deej
>
Bob Orban, on the Orban website, used to talk about the distortion on voices by the Omnia, especially on certain male voices.(See "Why is Bob laughing?")It seems to be a common problem with the Omnia.
Ask Bob Orban why the voice is distorted....Orban knows these boxes better than even Frank Foti....
My experience has been that Omnia builds loudness through composite clipping....take that away and the box falls off the dial.
I know many of you guys love Omnia, and the box has gotten much better than the earlier ones, but an Optimod will beat an Omnia every time, in subjective quality. And note, I said SUBJECTIVE! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....
 
> > This is my first post on this board, so I'm saying HELLO
> to
> > everyone.
> >
> > I am running an Omnia 5EX on our HipHop/R&B station in
> > Europe. Started with checking all the presets, ended with
> > the CHR Dense. This was for me the most consistent preset,
>
> > tweaked it a little to get rid off the massive Omnia Bass.
>
> > I'm sorry, but compared to the other stations this amount
> of
> > bass is a little strange.
> >
> > From that point, I am now firing up the unit, getting the
> > most loudness without the disadvantage of highly distorted
>
> > sound. The problem I have is that talent voices are
> > distorted, especially the first word of a sentence. The
> > attack seems to be not fast enough. Tried to increase the
> > Gate Threshold to keep the processing window at this
> level.
> > Also increasing the attack-speed etc. etc. But without any
>
> > luck. The only thing which works in decreasing the Clipper
>
> > drive, but you know what happens then, decreasing of
> > loudness.
> >
> > Hopefully there's anyone who can help me with this unit?
> > Placing something in front of it, tweak my settings?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Deej
> >
> Bob Orban, on the Orban website, used to talk about the
> distortion on voices by the Omnia, especially on certain
> male voices.(See "Why is Bob laughing?")It seems to be a
> common problem with the Omnia.
> Ask Bob Orban why the voice is distorted....Orban knows
> these boxes better than even Frank Foti....
> My experience has been that Omnia builds loudness through
> composite clipping....take that away and the box falls off
> the dial.
> I know many of you guys love Omnia, and the box has gotten
> much better than the earlier ones, but an Optimod will beat
> an Omnia every time, in subjective quality. And note, I said
> SUBJECTIVE! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....
> i don't know if Bob is laughing or if it is just HYSTERIA.i have never heard any orban product that sounds as good as the Omnia's.check out Jack Fm in Jackson Ms, their 5ex is running rings around the 8400's in the same market.check out Omnia sales next to Orban...Frank will welcome a shootout.
 
I run a variety of Omnia's and Orbans. One thing I've always done with my Omnia's is cut down on the distortion is to slow down the limiter and AGC attack and release times. Frank makes mention in the manuals about the trade-offs of faster attack/release times and distortion. This is really an understatement. Faster times lead to higher THD/IMD (this is an audio processing principle that exists in ANY processor.) When this is coupled with the noise added by the audio clipping stages, the result is pretty nasty. I've used this "tweak" any time I've had distortion coming from voices and it has always cleared it right up. One other thing... if you are running any mic processing, you may want to check it too. I've had a couple of cases where it wasn't the final processor at all, but a Symetrix that has been adjusted by a DJ. Cheers.
 
Is anyone running an AGC box in front of the Omnia (compellor, Ariane)?? Will this help the distrotion issue??
 
> Is anyone running an AGC box in front of the Omnia
> (compellor, Ariane)?? Will this help the distrotion issue??
>
Not in this case. He's running digital into the Omnia.
 
> Is anyone running an AGC box in front of the Omnia
> (compellor, Ariane)?? Will this help the distrotion issue??
>

We're running an AGC and a couple other boxes. The issue is really that for an analog input, the audio is still too hot going in the box. What others in the thread surmised is that the audio is hitting the absolute ceiling of the A/D converter in the Omnia. That may be true. I know that once I adjusted down the analog input volume, any distortion on voices disappeared and I didn't lose any audio level on the carrier.
 
> > Is anyone running an AGC box in front of the Omnia
> > (compellor, Ariane)?? Will this help the distrotion
> issue??
> >
>
> We're running an AGC and a couple other boxes. The issue is
> really that for an analog input, the audio is still too hot
> going in the box. What others in the thread surmised is that
> the audio is hitting the absolute ceiling of the A/D
> converter in the Omnia. That may be true. I know that once I
> adjusted down the analog input volume, any distortion on
> voices disappeared and I didn't lose any audio level on the
> carrier.
>

I set an Omnia 3 up for a college radio station once and remember there was actually contradictory information in the manual about how to read the in/out level meters on it. One part said it was referenced like VU meters while the other (and correct) portion says that the scale is dbFs (dB below A/D full scale). I set nominal level to be around -15dbFs at the input. The station had a hardwired balanced line for STL with a Compellor in front for AGC. Post-processing levels were fine at the exciter.
 
I've tried a variety of processors in front of the Omnia. The best combo, IMO is the compellor (The latest version) for softer formats and the Orban 8200 for CHR/Urban.

The Ariane is a good box, but screws with the L-R a little too much for my liking. Also, it has a tendency to really "muddy up" CHR and Pop music. There are those that will disagree... like I said, just my opinion.

The reality is that the Omnia has most of the tools you will need already in it... especially the newest version. The only real "fault' I've found in them is the Wide Band AGC and the composite clipper. The rest of the box is stellar for more agressive music.


> Is anyone running an AGC box in front of the Omnia
> (compellor, Ariane)?? Will this help the distrotion issue??
>
 
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