Omnia ONE pumping

[fm-engineer]

First, raise the AGC gate back to the default value. I can hear what you are describing in listening to the MP3. It sounds like you are driving the multiband AGC's or limiters way too deep. Try to speeding up the release times in the higher bands. What are the meters telling you? WB AGC?, AGC's, Limiters?. They hold the key to what is going on. The AGC’s are slower to respond, so I would look at the higher bands of the limiter section. I've never experienced an Omnia being dull on music. The opposite is normally true. Usually they are the brightest thing on the dial.

Just found somebody else with the problem (in a different Omnia processor) that I am having with our Omnia One. This is from Goran Tomas in the Processing Clips thread. Perhaps 'pumping' was not the correct term to use.

"These rare HF transients will cause higher band limiters in Omnia.6 to punch holes and create a prolonged dulling of the sound until the limiter releases back to usual GR. It doesn't help that the gating will cause higher bands limiters to recover very slowly because they are gated after the transient, and if there isn't any HF energy to trigger the gate (as there isn't in these songs) that will take a noticeably looong time.

To be fair, there will always be certain track that will "break" up any processor and it's most important what a processor does 99% of the time. However, and I just might be overly sensitive to this, this problem is something that I can hear often with Omnia.6 even with regular program material, not just these extreme examples. And that I couldn't (without ruining the rest of the sound) solve satisfactory by adjusting the processor. The milder effect of this problem is high-end breathing and changing frequency balance throughout the song (or with radio program that has lots of voices/cuts/jingles being mixed quickly and/or simultaneously)."

THAT is the problem I'm dealing with. Help! Thanks

 

[DudeFan]

It sounds almost as if the lower frequencies are punching a hole in the high end. We play this same track with an O3T and don't have any issues. But then we're cranked up with a heavily modified "HumorMe" preset.

One thing worth trying: engaging the high pass filter.

 

[CalifZeke]

Just found somebody else with the problem (in a different Omnia processor) that I am having with our Omnia One. This is from Goran Tomas in the Processing Clips thread. Perhaps 'pumping' was not the correct term to use.

"These rare HF transients will cause higher band limiters in Omnia.6 to punch holes and create a prolonged dulling of the sound until the limiter releases back to usual GR. It doesn't help that the gating will cause higher bands limiters to recover very slowly because they are gated after the transient, and if there isn't any HF energy to trigger the gate (as there isn't in these songs) that will take a noticeably looong time.

To be fair, there will always be certain track that will "break" up any processor and it's most important what a processor does 99% of the time. However, and I just might be overly sensitive to this, this problem is something that I can hear often with Omnia.6 even with regular program material, not just these extreme examples. And that I couldn't (without ruining the rest of the sound) solve satisfactory by adjusting the processor. The milder effect of this problem is high-end breathing and changing frequency balance throughout the song (or with radio program that has lots of voices/cuts/jingles being mixed quickly and/or simultaneously)."

THAT is the problem I'm dealing with. Help! Thanks

It's fairly well known that Goran knows next to nothing about the proper way to setup an Omnia.

 

[cmac]

Check your inbox

Yesterday I listened to an Omnia 1 station and was very impressed. The sound was not too far off from an Omnia 6 in the same market. If Whit is not satisfied with the WB AGC of the Omnia 1, I would get an Ariane sequel to handle the leveling duties. I have two stations using the Omina 6-Ariane combo. I start with the Cosmic or C. Gould presets. Then I use Para 666 commands to raise the WB AGC threshold way up. I adjust the five band AGC's for about -5 to -8 dB of gain reduction. This is a killer combo. I would suspect it would work on the Omnia 1 as well. In no way am I knocking the Omnia AGC. It works fine. This is just another possibility to slightly change the sonic signature and quality of a given setup. Good luck.

So how do you access to para commands, thru the serial port or via telnet? How high can you raise the WB AGC threshold? I'm currently using an Omnia 6-Ariane combo and have the threshold set at its highest (7). thanks

Great! Thanks Fm_engineer. I'll give it a try tonight.
Cheers

 

[whit979]

Just found somebody else with the problem (in a different Omnia processor) that I am having with our Omnia One. This is from Goran Tomas in the Processing Clips thread. Perhaps 'pumping' was not the correct term to use.

"These rare HF transients will cause higher band limiters in Omnia.6 to punch holes and create a prolonged dulling of the sound until the limiter releases back to usual GR. It doesn't help that the gating will cause higher bands limiters to recover very slowly because they are gated after the transient, and if there isn't any HF energy to trigger the gate (as there isn't in these songs) that will take a noticeably looong time.

To be fair, there will always be certain track that will "break" up any processor and it's most important what a processor does 99% of the time. However, and I just might be overly sensitive to this, this problem is something that I can hear often with Omnia.6 even with regular program material, not just these extreme examples. And that I couldn't (without ruining the rest of the sound) solve satisfactory by adjusting the processor. The milder effect of this problem is high-end breathing and changing frequency balance throughout the song (or with radio program that has lots of voices/cuts/jingles being mixed quickly and/or simultaneously)."

THAT is the problem I'm dealing with. Help! Thanks

It's fairly well known that Goran knows next to nothing about the proper way to setup an Omnia.

Well, do you? Can you offer me some suggestions? Thanks!

 

[CalifZeke]

Well, do you? Can you offer me some suggestions? Thanks!

It's not about suggestions. It's about having an ear, and understanding how to set audio processing. The problem with "suggestions" is what works in one market might suck in another. Not sure you really know what you're doing, based upon your posts. Might be a good idea to find someone who really knows what to do, and work with them. Have them there with you, and mabye you'll learn, then go from there. Trying to figure out what works, or doesn't, based upon a bunch of internet responses, and some mp3 files won't get you there.

 

[surfdude]

I think you should be able to buy one of these boxes from Omnia or Orban,
select the preset for your format and get an excellent sound - providing the
rest of the chain is solid. It doesn't seem to work that way.

We use an OminiaOne with the Rock setting, and it sounds decent after
we toned down the high mids.

It does take about three seconds for the full volume of the song to come up, out of a jingle.
It seems to do this with or without a Compellor in front of it.

Any ideas?

 

[DudeFan]

Thats a slow release (recovery) time.

The compressor attacks, and then slowly brings the gain back up. The make-up gain function on the Omnia is designed to address that by bringing the gain back up quickly.

There's no way you could make a plug and play box. There are too many variables in the audio and transmission chains! For example, the same Omnia setting sounds way different on our back-up transmitter than on our main.

 

[whit979]

Well, do you? Can you offer me some suggestions? Thanks!

It's not about suggestions. It's about having an ear, and understanding how to set audio processing. The problem with "suggestions" is what works in one market might suck in another. Not sure you really know what you're doing, based upon your posts. Might be a good idea to find someone who really knows what to do, and work with them. Have them there with you, and mabye you'll learn, then go from there. Trying to figure out what works, or doesn't, based upon a bunch of internet responses, and some mp3 files won't get you there.

With all due respect: No, I don't know a 'great deal' about processing, but we're just talking about dull sound...I'm not looking for the holy grail of processor settings...just a remedy to a problem I'm having. Thanks.

 

[tjm_pro]

Hi WHIT -

There's an Omnia.OneFM clip on Goran's site using the stock RockNRoll preset (the same preset used for the clip you uploaded) and if you listen the highs are not being sucked down or muffled like clip you uploaded. The clip is "Josie" by steely Dan, infact the balance on the "Josie" clip IMHO is pretty darn good for a stock setting. I still wonder if there's something else in your chain discoloring your audio. Good Luck.

 

[whit979]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to check that one out. One thing that might be a hangup for us, though, is that I think Steely Dan always recorded their stuff with a wide dynamic range. Their music is even recommended in the Omnia 6 operating manual to show how the limiters work on material with wide dynamics. The stuff we process is Top 40/AC. So the trouble is that a lot of the music we play is already smashed on the original CD. To be fair, we had similar problems processing current hit music on our old Optimod 8400. What ended up making the difference was changing the AGC ratio from inf:1 to 4:1, and lowering the Multiband Clip Drive. The One can process everything really smoothly, it just seems to get hung up on high transients from current hit music. Thanks again very much for the suggestion.

 

[busyradioguy]

I still think it's best to avoid use of any hyper-comp material on the air. Since your format is Hot AC / CHR type stuff, you might want to think about getting your music library from Jonestm. Visit www.jonestm.com for info.

 

[PaulyBoy]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to check that one out. One thing that might be a hangup for us, though, is that I think Steely Dan always recorded their stuff with a wide dynamic range. Their music is even recommended in the Omnia 6 operating manual to show how the limiters work on material with wide dynamics. The stuff we process is Top 40/AC. So the trouble is that a lot of the music we play is already smashed on the original CD. To be fair, we had similar problems processing current hit music on our old Optimod 8400. What ended up making the difference was changing the AGC ratio from inf:1 to 4:1, and lowering the Multiband Clip Drive. The One can process everything really smoothly, it just seems to get hung up on high transients from current hit music. Thanks again very much for the suggestion.

I've got multiple clients running Top 40/AC formats, using the One as their processor, and have none of the issues claimed here. Seems like Pilot Error to the above claim.

 

[Tom Wells]

Most installations of anything are uniique when analyzed, unless there has been a corporate push to mandate uniformity.
Don't be castin' no stones..

The hyper-compressed problem is real. It is well-nigh impossible to design something that will deal with high-quality audio
and crap and not make have a problem with material offering little clue as to how it actually sounded.
Perhaps such files need an "atrocious" bit, which could trigger a different preset for songs that appear to be wideband noise.
Soon as the atrocious bit drops out, it switches back to regular preset.

Otherwise build something yourself to measure avarage density of program material, and let it switch airstream processing if too high
a density is seen for too long. Think 5 second averaging.

 

[whit979]

I've got multiple clients running Top 40/AC formats, using the One as their processor, and have none of the issues claimed here. Seems like Pilot Error to the above claim.

It may be an outside shot, but would any of your AC clients be willing to share their settings with me? Thanks

 

[RealityCheckr]

Please re-read the past 10 posts. Several knowledgeable people just explained that there are too many variable in an airchain to have shared settings make any sense other than starting points.

Another thing to consider is how FM processing works. Do you understand the 75 microsecond curve and how this is a fundamental constraint on ALL FM (analog channel) broadcasting? If not, do some homework and get back to us. Try the Orban and Omnia web sites. Cornelius Gould also has a lot of article you might want to read as well.

Given that the high end HAS to be managed it can either clipped to h*ll like on your 8400 or "controlled" as on an Omnia. There ARE tradeoff in this game.

As suggested above, go to your local SBE meetings and learn who is responsible for good sounding stations and ask them to mentor you.

It may be an outside shot, but would any of your AC clients be willing to share their settings with me? Thanks

 

[whit979]

Please re-read the past 10 posts. Several knowledgeable people just explained that there are too many variable in an airchain to have shared settings make any sense other than starting points.

Only one way to know whether they would work or not! But hey, if it's easier to criticize than to suggest, then more power to you. Just don't do it with me because I'm not that closed-minded.

 

[RealityCheckr]

OK, you have made it clear. You would rather "fiddle about" than learn your trade.

You are right, someone else's settings (or a one of the other presets) just might work. And it it does you have no interest as to why.

And you wonder why you get no respect!

Do you even know what the pre-emphasis curve is? Do you know what 100% modulation is? Do you care?

One more thing, what about my suggestions didn't you understand?

Please re-read the past 10 posts. Several knowledgeable people just explained that there are too many variable in an airchain to have shared settings make any sense other than starting points.

Only one way to know whether they would work or not! But hey, if it's easier to criticize than to suggest, then more power to you. Just don't do it with me because I'm not that closed-minded.

 

[DudeFan]

Whit:

The only way to get the unit adjusted right for your station is to either bring in another set of ears and ask them a lot of questions as they help you adjust the thing, or study the manual and read up on what each control does and what each "effect" it controls. It's not easy and its not quick. We're on the air three years and I am still slowly tweaking things. It's a process of listening carefully, making a slight adjustment in the appropriate control, and then letting it sit for a couple months and listen carefully to the station.

Either way, it sounds like you have an interest in processing, but you are early in on the curve of learning audio processing principles. As I learned, there's no getting around learning the principles.

I learned a lot by 1) reading the Omnia manual -- Frank discusses what each control does and gives suggestions; 2) call Omnia support, tell them your issue, they will offer some great suggestions and ask them why they made those suggestions -- they are patient and are willing to share what they know 3) read all of Cornelius Gould's, Frank Foti's and Robert Orban's papers online.

Simply popping in a preset is not going to work for you. Again, there are too many variables from station to station. You would still have to adjust the preset. But you wouldn't know what the preset creator did or why, so you'd really be in the weeds if it didn't sound good on your facility.

 

[whit979]

DudeFan, thanks for your advice. That is something I can do. RealityCheckr: Check yourself. Unfounded disrespect of others only makes YOU look bad. I am fully aware of the fundamentals of processing. What I cannot understand is why one processor has no problem with highs, yet another one can make them sound awful right out of the box. And I'm not 'fiddling', again, these are factory presets. Too bad.

I get plenty of respect from the Orban folks, and they get it right back from me. You have to give respect to get it. I guess Omnia processors just make some people grumpy. Now, I can see why..

Have a great day folks. My apologies to those who I offended. Guess I'll just have to find my answer somewhere else.