Omnia ONE pumping

[busyradioguy]

Wow, now it sounds like someone expects too much from factory presets. I suppose the knowledgeable engineers pick a processor preset and say, "That's fine, so I'll just leave it".

I mean wow....

Presets are starting points, not absolute one-cure fixes.

 

[FFoti1]

I get plenty of respect from the Orban folks, and they get it right back from me. You have to give respect to get it. I guess Omnia processors just make some people grumpy. Now, I can see why..

Whit,

Having read this thread, along with others you've posted, please consider getting some in-the-field assistance. Some of your comments seem to conflict with your views. I admire your enthusiasm, and hopefully you're learning that processing knowledge is something you acquire, based upon experience with it.

Since we've outsold the other guy by close to a 4:1 margin, our Support Crew tell me that we're quite low on the 'grumpy scale' with regards to users whom are satisfied.

-Frank Foti

 

[kyscott]

Since we've outsold the other guy by close to a 4:1 margin, our Support Crew tell me that we're quite low on the 'grumpy scale' with regards to users whom are satisfied.

No grumpiness here, Frank. I have actually spec'ed Omnia processors over Orban's on a few jobs. I think both you guys make good boxes, but I think Omni has the edge over the past five years or so. I have an AM station running a Tieline Patriot for an STL feeding into your AM 3. Sounds wonderful. I'm sure I would enjoy it more if I could understand what they are saying, it's a Hispanic format!

I think part of the problem may be that there are so many adjustments on the boxes these days, people get overwhelmed. Personally, I find a preset I like and tweak it from there. And on AM, you really have to try all presets. I have one music intensive AM running a "news" preset because of the limitations in my antenna system.

 

[whit979]

Whit,

Having read this thread, along with others you've posted, please consider getting some in-the-field assistance. Some of your comments seem to conflict with your views. I admire your enthusiasm, and hopefully you're learning that processing knowledge is something you acquire, based upon experience with it.

Since we've outsold the other guy by close to a 4:1 margin, our Support Crew tell me that we're quite low on the 'grumpy scale' with regards to users whom are satisfied.

-Frank Foti

Frank,

This is the second time that you've told me to get in-the-field assistance. I don't know if you're talking about getting someone in here with me, or getting in touch with someone via e-mail or telephone who can provide some assistance outside of your support department. But let me tell you about our situation. I had to teach myself about processing because there is no one in our community who does it. Our engineer is freelance and does not do anything with processing, in order for him to stay neutral. Our GM will not pay someone as a consultant to come in and take care of processing for us, and he shouldn't have to. When I tried to get in touch with Mark Manolio for contact information of other Omnia users who might be willing to impart some additional advice, I got nothing. I'm not trying to knock your products, as I know there are thousands of stations who use them. We would like to be one of those stations.

Orban designs their processors with 3 different levels of control for people of all experience levels. For the novice, there is Less-More. For the slightly more experienced user, there is an Intermediate mode. For processing users of the highest knowledge, there is an Advanced mode. Novice Omnia users get presets only. While Orban's factory defaults are arguably not as good as Omnia's, the argument could also be made that none of their presets (or Less-More deviations) have high frequency ducking issues right out of the box. I know, I know...it's a different topology, and I respect that. That's WHY we bought an Omnia instead of another Optimod box. The problem is, every preset has this issue. I can tweak to a certain extent, I have no problem with that...but I'm not the only person with this issue. I've spoken to several former Omnia users in the past few days who have expressed difficulty with the same ducking problem, but no remedy. These were engineers who have much more experience than I have.

I am not taking this thread as an opportunity to bash your company. The sheer number of Omnia stations means that you guys are doing processing well. I just find it disappointing that the only answer seems to be that someone else should be taking care of our processing. Please understand that while many stations may buy your products, not all of them are in a situation where they can afford to bring someone in specifically to tweak the processor. Many of the people who are handling their stations' processing are programmers, managers, or others on the staff who simply know the difference between good and bad sound. We are one of those stations. We NEED a competently-designed processor. We believe we found that processor in the Omnia One. This is the only issue we are facing with this unit. If we can get past this, we will be a very happy station. If I could get this issue fixed, I would sing your praises to everybody I know in the business.

So, Frank, what can we do? How would you guide us with your product?

Thanks,
Whit

 

[phr8trayn]

Catch 22 or Tic-Tac-Toe anyone???

whitfm : Guess I'll just have to find my answer somewhere else

phr8trayn: I don't think there is an answer

 

[FFoti1]

I am not taking this thread as an opportunity to bash your company. The sheer number of Omnia stations means that you guys are doing processing well. I just find it disappointing that the only answer seems to be that someone else should be taking care of our processing. Please understand that while many stations may buy your products, not all of them are in a situation where they can afford to bring someone in specifically to tweak the processor. Many of the people who are handling their stations' processing are programmers, managers, or others on the staff who simply know the difference between good and bad sound. We are one of those stations. We NEED a competently-designed processor. We believe we found that processor in the Omnia One. This is the only issue we are facing with this unit. If we can get past this, we will be a very happy station. If I could get this issue fixed, I would sing your praises to everybody I know in the business.

So, Frank, what can we do? How would you guide us with your product?

Thanks,
Whit

Whit,

I made this recommendation, as it appears you're frustrated, and your comments/posts offer conflicting views. Since the greater majority of users indicate the product works, to their satisfaction, what's different about your scenario?

My comments are based upon two criteria:

1. You have posted numerous times, along with numerous threads where you have noted an issue, yet you have noted your satisfaction with our product.

2. I have checked with Mark, in our Support Dept, and he has communicated with you numerous times, and offered many suggestions. So, we have responded to you, and on numerous occasions.

It appears to me that you're probably trying to do too many tweaks, all at once, and then not sure of what works and what doesn't, as each tweak/variable will change 'something.' Then, you wonder why you can't achieve what you're looking for...BUT...you'll claim how good the product is. Hence my earlier comment about your conflicting viewpoints.

The presets were created using input from customers and tested significantly, on many stations before being released. If this was truly a problem, we would have heard from the 2000 plus Omnia.One FM users out there. BTW: Our Support records indicate this is not a problem. As stated by a prior poster, have you determined there isn't something else in your system causing the processor to sound a certain way? Based upon what I've read, in this thread, that was not answered.

What to do? I suggest you get with someone, whom you trust and work with them directly. By that, the two of you are together in-person listening to the radio station, on the same receiver/radio, and make your adjustments that way. Asking open ended questions to a list-serve will generate more 'suggestions,' but those can be tricky as every market is sound-referenced differently, which will result in added frustration.

You're always welcome to contact Mark, and he'll offer assistance.

-Frank Foti

 

[RealityCheckr]

If you cannot afford to get help then you need to do your homework. A very good place to start is the Orban 8100a manual, chapter 5. In particular the section entitled "High Frequency Limiting to Reduce Distortion"

Also, read Cornelius Gould's series on processing.

The Key concept relevant here is that the high frequency pre-emphasis presents a true dilemma. Either the highs must be filtered out (statically or dynamically) or they must be crushed using clipping in order to prevent overmodulation by the pre-emphasized audio.

Generally speaking, Orban boxes take the clipping approach, which is why they have a sand-papery sound to high hats and treble when pushed hard.

Omnia tends to take the opposite approach. The highs are clean, but some times need to be ducked to prevent overmodulation, again particularly when pushed aggressively.

Of course hyper-compressed audio is chock full of high frequencies, so it forces more high frequency reductions than normal audio.

Now, as I said, if you really want to solve this without a consultant start reading!

Frank,

This is the second time that you've told me to get in-the-field assistance. I don't know if you're talking about getting someone in here with me, or getting in touch with someone via e-mail or telephone who can provide some assistance outside of your support department. But let me tell you about our situation. I had to teach myself about processing because there is no one in our community who does it. Our engineer is freelance and does not do anything with processing, in order for him to stay neutral. Our GM will not pay someone as a consultant to come in and take care of processing for us, and he shouldn't have to. When I tried to get in touch with Mark Manolio for contact information of other Omnia users who might be willing to impart some additional advice, I got nothing. I'm not trying to knock your products, as I know there are thousands of stations who use them. We would like to be one of those stations.

Orban designs their processors with 3 different levels of control for people of all experience levels. For the novice, there is Less-More. For the slightly more experienced user, there is an Intermediate mode. For processing users of the highest knowledge, there is an Advanced mode. Novice Omnia users get presets only. While Orban's factory defaults are arguably not as good as Omnia's, the argument could also be made that none of their presets (or Less-More deviations) have high frequency ducking issues right out of the box. I know, I know...it's a different topology, and I respect that. That's WHY we bought an Omnia instead of another Optimod box. The problem is, every preset has this issue. I can tweak to a certain extent, I have no problem with that...but I'm not the only person with this issue. I've spoken to several former Omnia users in the past few days who have expressed difficulty with the same ducking problem, but no remedy. These were engineers who have much more experience than I have.

I am not taking this thread as an opportunity to bash your company. The sheer number of Omnia stations means that you guys are doing processing well. I just find it disappointing that the only answer seems to be that someone else should be taking care of our processing. Please understand that while many stations may buy your products, not all of them are in a situation where they can afford to bring someone in specifically to tweak the processor. Many of the people who are handling their stations' processing are programmers, managers, or others on the staff who simply know the difference between good and bad sound. We are one of those stations. We NEED a competently-designed processor. We believe we found that processor in the Omnia One. This is the only issue we are facing with this unit. If we can get past this, we will be a very happy station. If I could get this issue fixed, I would sing your praises to everybody I know in the business.

So, Frank, what can we do? How would you guide us with your product?

Thanks,
Whit

 

[whit979]

My comments are based upon two criteria:

1. You have posted numerous times, along with numerous threads where you have noted an issue, yet you have noted your satisfaction with our product.

2. I have checked with Mark, in our Support Dept, and he has communicated with you numerous times, and offered many suggestions. So, we have responded to you, and on numerous occasions.

It appears to me that you're probably trying to do too many tweaks, all at once, and then not sure of what works and what doesn't, as each tweak/variable will change 'something.' Then, you wonder why you can't achieve what you're looking for...BUT...you'll claim how good the product is. Hence my earlier comment about your conflicting viewpoints.

The presets were created using input from customers and tested significantly, on many stations before being released. If this was truly a problem, we would have heard from the 2000 plus Omnia.One FM users out there. BTW: Our Support records indicate this is not a problem. As stated by a prior poster, have you determined there isn't something else in your system causing the processor to sound a certain way? Based upon what I've read, in this thread, that was not answered.

What to do? I suggest you get with someone, whom you trust and work with them directly. By that, the two of you are together in-person listening to the radio station, on the same receiver/radio, and make your adjustments that way. Asking open ended questions to a list-serve will generate more 'suggestions,' but those can be tricky as every market is sound-referenced differently, which will result in added frustration.

You're always welcome to contact Mark, and he'll offer assistance.

-Frank Foti

Frank, my comments about your product are based on the fact that it is a good product for many other people. I can tell that it has the *potential* to be good for us as well. What I cannot figure out is the HF situation.

To answer your question about the broadcast facility, it is a Scott Studios setup with everything dubbed in with JonesTM HitDiscs in PCM format.

 

[FFoti1]

Frank, my comments about your product are based on the fact that it is a good product for many other people. I can tell that it has the *potential* to be good for us as well. What I cannot figure out is the HF situation.

To answer your question about the broadcast facility, it is a Scott Studios setup with everything dubbed in with JonesTM HitDiscs in PCM format.

Please work...offline...with our Support group. They'll assist you.

-Frank Foti

 

[stace]

I think everybody knows how frustrating it is when you can hear something you don't like, but don't know how to fix it.

Your situation especially so, and just preset surfing won't fix it. When you think of the thousands of combinations of settings, one of which WILL make your perfect sound and most probably achievable with both brands of processor you have, it's very unlikely you'll find it in a preset in any box. The manufacturer will give you a good spread/range of different sounding audio, but its up to you to have enough knowledge to make small adjustments over a long period of time. It's VERY tempting to dive in head first making big adjustments, with lots of cool controls, but that will only slow things down, and create added frustration.

I'm in a market using an Omnia.FM on a Rock station. I like the sound, it's taken work though. Not made particularly easy when the CRANKED preset still isn't loud enough. We really do create a rod for our own backs when we over process the cume stations, because it means we have to process the Easy / AC stations heavier than normal just so they don't fall off the dial. This is one reason why presets won't necessarily have the answer. Chances are though, that there is one thats close.

RealityChecker
This is an interesting point. Is the reason you can hear the high frequency ducking, because Pre-emp happens after the limiter? Shouldn't Optimod still sound clean if it uses a limiter to keep it off the clippers. Our set up is nice and tingly in the top end, but I am aware of the sandpapery effect you mention, so I don't drive clippers hard, instead drive the multiband harder and use a faster release time. Something I had to get used to when coming from using Omnias which can take a hiding on the clippers.

 

[whit979]

Will-do, Frank. Thank you.

 

[oldiesstation]

All this processing stuff can make you crazy dealing with it.So darn subjective.Some ears may love a preset,others well,it could sound better.wish whitfm,has someone near Atlanta that would come help him.Someone that has setup alot of processors.When i made changes,i would listen for days,maybe re-adjust and take another listen,your ears will begin to play tricks with you.But i sure have tons of faith in the omnia team.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Optimod 8300... Put in all the presets that were relevent and tried them. Didn't think they sounded all that hot for a client that had a format of rock and roll from the 50s-80s, some cuts being pretty ragged, admittedly. So I hooked up the remote IP control to it and went out and tweeked and tweeked and tweeked. Small adjustments.. Listen critically.. Then I'd take a break from it and listen again another day. Tweek it a bit again and again.. Eventually I got one hell of a good sound out of the darn thing, but it was a whole lot of tweeking and patience with critical listening. In contrast I had a station I put on the air with one of the new Omnia 6's. I flipped around until I found "country 2". I added a bit more highs and I was VERY happy with what I heard on the smooth jazz station. One of the guys was so impressed with that sounded he bought an Omnia One to see if it sounded good on his station. I put the thing in and picked a classic rock (I think) preset. Pow... Instant success. So here's the deal IMHO. Some stations due to format or source material OR EQUIPMENT COLORING OTHER THAN THE PROCESSOR might need a little or a LOT of changes to get the maximum bang out of the sound of the station. Small changes and listening and listening and listening... Most of the time that's what necessary. Frank's boxes seem to need less of it normally, but when you have something as unique as overly-comressed junk to play on the air, it's going to take some work bro. Compare the source and the processed back and forth and back and forth on GOOD monitor speakers then go grab some P.O.S. radio and make sure it sounds acceptable on it too compared to others in the market. There's no other way to do it unless you want to cheat and get someone else to do it for you that has more experience. That sorta spoils the fun of it all though, doesn't it? YOU want to be the guy that cooked up the best sounding new music station in the market, don't you?

 

[whit979]

Well, that would be nice but I know that I need the outside help. We'll get there...
Thanks

 

[fm-engineer]

Whitfm,

I listened to your MP3 again. To me it sounds like everything above 1 or 2 k is getting hammered into deep limiting rather than clipping. If you hear this on all presets it has to be the setup, something else in the chain, or a defective processor. Since its DSP, I doubt the processor is broken. They usually have self-diagnostics when they are booted.

 

[cgould]

Whit,

I've been following this thread, and have some suggestions. If you need another voice from Omnia to help you along, I'd be glad to talk with you
on all your issues, and to see if we can get past the brick wall you have found. The HF issue is pretty easy to fix, and it would probably be easier for me to just talk to you about why you are hearing what you are hearing, and relate it all to the controls. Also, look at my processing articles PDF's for the "Art Vs. Science - Time Constants" article for more hints.

Downlad link here:
http://www.cgould.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=3&Itemid=30

If you wish to talk to me, contact me off list with a number where I can contact you, and I'll lend a hand. I do have other tasks to do, so reading the article first will help us get to the point of solving your issue faster!

Your problem is all explained using general examples in that article!

-Cornelius
Omnia Audio

 

[wgliradio]

Whit

Will have some special presets for you off my Omnia ONE when I get to download them later this week! Hang in there and thank you for the description of what you need. I think I may have something for you.

 

[rorban]

Generally speaking, Orban boxes take the clipping approach, which is why they have a sand-papery sound to high hats and treble when pushed hard.

The HF LIMITER control in current Optimods is often overlooked. It is linked "intelligently" to the clippers and monitors the amount of clipping that's occurring. This control helps determines the tradeoff between HF control by clipping and by gain reduction. Turn it down to get more clipping and up to get more gain reduction. I prefer a setting of -18 for most applications but others may have different preferences.

Bob Orban

 

[Sgeirk]

Hey Cornelius,

Good article!

 

[busyradioguy]

Whit,

The more of your posts I read, the more confused I get.

On the one hand, you claim most of your source material is hypercompressed, but now you're telling us most of your library is from JonesTM HitDiscs? I have never heard a Jones disc of any kind, with HC. In fact I believe JonesTM does everything they possibly can to deal with HC material.

One thing to keep in mind here, is that JonesTM sometimes EQ's the music, to help make it sound cleaner for radio. Some of that EQ is most noticeable in the high end. That could be a factor here.