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oldtimer4radio
Guest
Has anyone installed any of the new or off beat "on air consoles"
W-12, Arc-15 or Solidyne....any thoughts?
Thanks
W-12, Arc-15 or Solidyne....any thoughts?
Thanks
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I have an ARC-10 and it's pretty nice. I've got a review upcoming in the next month or so appearing in a major trade publication.
One of my clients has a Solidyne desk, and while I personally don't like it, it seems to work very well.
The back of the desk has a mix of consumer and pro-audio connectors which puts me off completely from the start.
[I don't like consumer grade connectors or equipment anywhere in a radio station].
Inside, all components are mounted on one of two or three large PCBs - and any attempt to repair a part of the desk means the whole thing has to be pulled down - faders and all.
Give me a modular desk any day.
A couple of the channels have switchable inputs from balanced analog to digital. The inputs are via 5 pin "DIN" connectors. On these channels I believe, when cue is selected, only one channel is monitored and show on the metering.
[Originally we thought this was a fault until we dismantled the desk to find out it wasn't].
Desk has a built-in phone hybrid with 2 lines and this seems to work quite well.
Apart from a few of the issues mentioned, and the fact it looks like it should be used in a news booth [it's not very big], the desk seems to be very reliable and sounds OK on-air.
The back of the desk has a mix of consumer and pro-audio connectors which puts me off completely from the start.
[I don't like consumer grade connectors or equipment anywhere in a radio station].
Inside, all components are mounted on one of two or three large PCBs - and any attempt to repair a part of the desk means the whole thing has to be pulled down - faders and all.
Give me a modular desk any day.
A couple of the channels have switchable inputs from balanced analog to digital. The inputs are via 5 pin "DIN" connectors. On these channels I believe, when cue is selected, only one channel is monitored and show on the metering.
[Originally we thought this was a fault until we dismantled the desk to find out it wasn't].
Desk has a built-in phone hybrid with 2 lines and this seems to work quite well.
Apart from a few of the issues mentioned, and the fact it looks like it should be used in a news booth [it's not very big], the desk seems to be very reliable and sounds OK on-air.
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oldtimer4radio
Guest
Thats for the input so far... I am looking more and more at the Audioarts W-12
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Fenway Frank
Guest
It appears you are looking at less expensive alternatives. Remember you get what you pay for....no matter the vendor. The thing to consider are the connections on the board itself. Personally I am fearful of RCA Phono plugs. If you want cheap, go with a Live Sound Console. Mackie etc.
If you want a broadcast console, have you ever considered a Radio Systems Millenium. They come in a lot of flavors, are reasonably priced and just plain work.
If you want a broadcast console, have you ever considered a Radio Systems Millenium. They come in a lot of flavors, are reasonably priced and just plain work.
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Dndsh237
Guest
???
What's so bad about RCA audio connectors and consumer gear in a broadcast studio? I know of installations that are using consumer gear and it works.
What's so bad about RCA audio connectors and consumer gear in a broadcast studio? I know of installations that are using consumer gear and it works.
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oldtimer4radio
Guest
I have looked at the Radio Systems as well...the Audioarts is not cheap priced at about the same as a RS 12 channel ....list is somewhere around 8K.
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OttoM
Guest
Dndsh237 said:
The increased amount of hum and susceptibility to RF are two bad things about unbalanced that I can think of right off the bat. And don't forget the durability factor (RCAs are MUCH less robust than XLRs) and the inherent lower audio quality of consumer gear (because it's built with the cheapest parts available) and that pretty much tells you why pro studios run ONLY balanced connections.
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oldtimer4radio
Guest
That's why I can not go low end like the Audioarts Air-1...I have a 1KW Am in the next room...I will be replacing an Autogram RTV-20.
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OttoM
Guest
oldtimer4radio said:
Actually, it's the AIR2PLUS that's unbalanced. The AIR1 has "TRS" connections - probably "balanced" in the way Behringer does - but you could ground the shields at the opposite end of the console.
Studio1's comment just begged me to put in my 2 cents:
There are many LPFM's and similarly low-budget stations (perhaps some small community AM stations?) that would prefer to have a console that is more "broadcast studio like" instead of a typical sound reinforcement type or recording mixer. I have seen mixers like Mackies being used where everybody tweaked the EQ settings on all the channels and make the air product sound like utter garbage. Also, many of these recording mixers don't have monitor muting when microphones are enabled. These are two strong points for this new generation of consumer gear friendly radio consoles.
Some of these stations are still using analog sources like CDs and such and being able to do a trade with the local hi-fi shop for an emergency CD player replacement beats having to spend big bucks on a similar unit. Many of these new generation boards also have support for devices like phone hybrids - something I think is a great feature.
Obviously, there is a demand for this product as there's more than one vendor is catering to the target audience. Be it podcasters, small voiceover shops or small town broadcasters, these boards have a place. In fact, Arrakis makes two version of their "budget" analog board - one without and one with BALANCED inputs. I don't know about the others, but I'm sure these companies would not spend resources developing these consoles if they didn't think they could sell them.
I have an ARC-10 board with the unbalanced inputs (except for the microphones) and I have to say it's a great little console.
There are many LPFM's and similarly low-budget stations (perhaps some small community AM stations?) that would prefer to have a console that is more "broadcast studio like" instead of a typical sound reinforcement type or recording mixer. I have seen mixers like Mackies being used where everybody tweaked the EQ settings on all the channels and make the air product sound like utter garbage. Also, many of these recording mixers don't have monitor muting when microphones are enabled. These are two strong points for this new generation of consumer gear friendly radio consoles.
Some of these stations are still using analog sources like CDs and such and being able to do a trade with the local hi-fi shop for an emergency CD player replacement beats having to spend big bucks on a similar unit. Many of these new generation boards also have support for devices like phone hybrids - something I think is a great feature.
Obviously, there is a demand for this product as there's more than one vendor is catering to the target audience. Be it podcasters, small voiceover shops or small town broadcasters, these boards have a place. In fact, Arrakis makes two version of their "budget" analog board - one without and one with BALANCED inputs. I don't know about the others, but I'm sure these companies would not spend resources developing these consoles if they didn't think they could sell them.
I have an ARC-10 board with the unbalanced inputs (except for the microphones) and I have to say it's a great little console.
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OttoM
Guest
Bill DeFelice said:
You're absolutely right, Bill. For LPFMs, Part 15ers et. al there's certainly a market for unbalanced consoles. And you CAN use one in a pro facility if you're willing to deal with the previously-noted potential pitfalls of using unbalanced audio. But most broadcast engineers won't do that.
Studio1 said:
The simple answer to that question is that there are plenty of stations that do not have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on professional broadcast equipment. I saw several stations in the 90s, one of which was in a top 50 market, using a commercially marketed form of CD automation (I don't know which company marketed these) that consisted of a couple of racks outfitted with consumer grade Pioneer CD units. Somebody here may be familiar with those. They weren't real good, but they were affordable for stations with small budgets and they worked...most of the time.
Every station would love to be equipped with state of the art, balanced pro quality equipment, but few stations in smaller markets can budget it. I saw a number of stations using cheap consumer grade CD players in the 90s, some of which had the audio fed from the headphone output to the console. The impedence mismatch would scare most people, but the fact is that the average listener couldn't tell the difference between hearing music from one of those $100 consumer CD players and the music on a another station coming from a $1500 Denon CD Cart.
One thing about a console claiming to have all the features you need and then seeing phono/RCA plugs on the back sort of restricts the type of end-user that the designers had in mind, and the pros will turn their noses up at domestic connectors on console designed for the rigours of 24/7 broadcasting. I would generally prefer XLR or perhaps 25 way D so that I can take the connections to a Krone panel.
Bought a Sony MXP 390s of ebay for $140.00 including shipping. These are, or were, very expensive 4 buss audio video editors with VCAs. I gutted all the digital out of it and rewired the prefader switches for audition. 4 mono channels and 8 stereo channels with switchable balanced and unbalanced line and mic level. Very nice board but a ton of work. It's what you do when money is an object. Very nice EQs.
1. RCA connectors (jacks) have a bad habit of the shell (outside portion) becoming corroded, and losing good contact with the ground/shield connection of the plug. With the resulting "bad influence to the operation of the incoming audio signal" as some poorly translated manuals would warn. We're 5 miles downwind from a coal fired power plant, so have definitely "been there, done that" with hi-fi equipment like cassette and CD players that use RCA jacks for outputs.
2. Just went through this selection process for a high school station. After sorting through what was available in their under 5k budget, they decided on an Audioarts (Wheatstone) R55 8 channel.
Granted, having to actually solder to 25 pin connectors scares the H out of what passes for technical help nowadays. But even the smaller LPFM's can often find some old fart like me who will wire the thing for them. I've done two other R55E's (a 12 channel in my own station, and another 8 for a 10 kw college classical music station). I take my time, make up pigtails for every possible in and out, and bring them down to barrier strips. That way, if changes need to be made in the future, they can be done with a screwdriver.
2. Just went through this selection process for a high school station. After sorting through what was available in their under 5k budget, they decided on an Audioarts (Wheatstone) R55 8 channel.
Granted, having to actually solder to 25 pin connectors scares the H out of what passes for technical help nowadays. But even the smaller LPFM's can often find some old fart like me who will wire the thing for them. I've done two other R55E's (a 12 channel in my own station, and another 8 for a 10 kw college classical music station). I take my time, make up pigtails for every possible in and out, and bring them down to barrier strips. That way, if changes need to be made in the future, they can be done with a screwdriver.
Dndsh237 said:
After you get past the ground loops (remember the shield is on signal conductor) there is the constuction. A center pin that is clamped, sort of, by a bent piece of metal inside the jack. Then there is the outer shell fitting over the barrel of the jack, lovely place for intermittent connections. I put together some cable TV studios for public access that used consumer audio gear and "industrial" U-Matic recorders so there were RCAs all around. Kept me hopping to silence hum and static. If you must go unbalanced I'd prefer they'd used1/4" Phone Plugs and Jacks even for consumer stuff but for some reaon that never was the norm. When I could, I rebuilt even my personal stuff and put in 1/4" phones all the way, but that option went away with the PC board mounted jacks.
CatFM said:
I wired one of those TM Century units to a DP-1 automation to replace some worn-out Scully 270's back in the '90s. It had three Pioneer CD decks (were they 5 or 6-pack units). They did work, most of the time...the decks' changer mechanisms wore out quickly, of course.
One of the stations I maintain was wired by the group engineers so the RCA connector grounds were not used. A 14-gauge stranded wire is lugged to the chassis of each unbalanced device (CD, cassette, etc.) and tied to the console ground. It seems to work, but there's no AM stick outside to worry about...I don't know if this would work in a high RF field.
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