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One of the biggest flops of all time

Did Sony originally think that people would buy the XDR-F1HD just to hear HD radio????? I bought it for extremely high levels of FM adjacent selectivity and FM DXing rather than to hear the HD stuff. Poor marketing, well yeah maybe, but I don't see the tuner as a flop. I see it as a DX equipment and an FM tuner/audio component.
 
As always I have to temper these "biggest flops" stories with some reality. Laserdisc never caught on with the masses but did find a successful niche with videophiles. People still used them right up until DVD's dominance, with many clinging to the format's truer colors and better picture reproduction. I think it took Blu-Ray to totally kill these in the videophile market.

I owned (still own, actually) some Minidisc gear and love it. It still does what an iPod can't: Record high quality compressed audio through a mic, line in or optical input. The last models to come out could even record/play PCM and featured higher capacity discs. They never caught on the US but basically replaced cassette tapes in Japan. They're still used in some pro settings, and even a few radio stations probably have a deck handy for spots.

Some of the devices were not flops because they were bad, just ahead of technology at the time, like VirtualBoy (now we have glasses-less 3D Nintendo game units) and CD-i, which was superseded by interactive DVDs. The SPOT watch service was only recently discontinued, believe it or not, despite never catching on. Again, it was ahead of its time, using the slow data of FM radio instead of delivering via some other means like 3G or wifi that we all use now on our smartphones. The Sony Mylo was a victim of iPhone-mania, but was otherwise a good competitor to its target, the T-Mobile Sidekick. (Oddly enough the Sidekick lives on despite its outdated modus operandi.)

Vista wasn't a flop, either. No Microsoft OS ever seems to work right away out of the box. Since being patched to death, it, like XP, is now pretty stable.
 
The Sony HD radio is the best radio, period. The fact that it does HD is a bonus, especially for DXing when it shows the call letters.
 
With the XDR-F1HD being one of the more popular HD radios it was probably the image that came up when they googled it for the story. Sony did make the radio specifically for HD, the fact that HD has more or less flopped was reflected in the low sales and that is why it has been discontinued. Unfortunately the niche DX market wasn't enough to keep this tuner afloat. Personally I would have paid the same amount regardless of whether or not it had HD built in, the adjacent FM selectivity on it is the best I've ever seen. Although HD has come in handy during e-skip season as I've managed to ID several NPR type stations by getting their HD call letters to display.

Zach said:
Vista wasn't a flop, either. No Microsoft OS ever seems to work right away out of the box. Since being patched to death, it, like XP, is now pretty stable.

XP really wasn't that special in 2001, it was basically a themed version of Windows 2000 with a bunch of security issues. SP2 fixed most of that in 2004. Vista's biggest issue was drivers. It didn't play well with XP drivers and if you had 64 bit drivers were scarce. Windows 7 doesn't have this issue since it is very compatible with Vista drivers as Windows 7 is basically a tweaked Vista.
 
I disagree with blaming the "poor marketing and manufacturing costs."

How many Stilleto XM radios were sold? The ones promoted by Elton John? Not many. When I talk with my friends at SiriusXM, they all tell me their real growth isn't in the manufacturing area, but OEM installations in cars. That confirms my long-held opinion that people simply aren't motivated to buy radios of any kind. HD, satellite, internet, and AM-FM radios are all museum pieces. None are selling.

To me, one of the biggest CES flops was the radio Tivo device, that allowed people to digitally record off their radio and play it back later.

All of this means that it's unlikely you'll see many new radio technologies at CES in the future.
 
I also have to take issue with the use of the Sony receiver. I, too, have one, and like the others here, did *NOT* buy it for the HD. I bought it because it is absolutely, bar-none, the *BEST EVER* FM receiver I have *EVER* used for pulling-out a weak signal! :) The AM section is no slouch, either. I modified mine by installing an "HD-Kill switch", though, to FORCE the radio to stay in analog mode. This is a VERY helpful mod, especially with AM.

One of the things I noticed about the HD signal on AM, is that while it "opened up" the high audio frequencies, it sounded VERY artificial. Every "S" sounded EXACTLY the SAME, regardless of who was saying it? Are ya KIDDING ME?! Myself and a friend noticed that after listening for only about 30 seconds. It was awful. 'nuff said.
 
It would be interesting to see how many technologies broadcasters have come up with, that have "flopped". I'd say it is approaching 100% ;D .

AM Stereo, Teletext, Digital TV (according to many ;) ), V-Chip (rarely used), .......
 
kenglish said:
It would be interesting to see how many technologies broadcasters have come up with, that have "flopped". I'd say it is approaching 100% ;D .

AM Stereo, Teletext, Digital TV (according to many ;) ), V-Chip (rarely used), .......

Don't forget "Quad". ;)
 
It's my observation that the HD codec has its biggest problems with the human voice. We all know this is a big challenge for any digital audio system, and one in which IBOC is especially deficient. It's most apparent on the AM version.
 
IIRC the HD codec is like the ones used on satellite radio: nothing over about 4 kHz is being reproduced naturally. It's spectral replication, something some egghead scientists have come up with that they believe we silly humans can't perceive.

Which is one of the many reasons I say, and I mean no offense to you engineers out there, that engineers with tin ears should not be allowed to design sound reproduction systems. Just because you can't tell a difference or a computer says it's theoretically the same, don't mean it's the same.
 
Well, if the Sony radio is a flop rest assured that there are some 60 new HD Radios rising up to take its place. That's according to Bob Struble who obviously has been sniffing floor wax and is getting jiggy over the 2012 CES Show (even though most pundits regard the CES show as largely irrelevant).

http://www.radioink.com/Article.asp?id=2368203&spid=24698

He says: "Broadcast radio continues to increase its listening audience..." That may be true, but it's analog, Bob, not digital.
 
Carmine5 said:
Well, if the Sony radio is a flop rest assured that there are some 60 new HD Radios rising up to take its place. That's according to Bob Struble who obviously has been sniffing floor wax and is getting jiggy over the 2012 CES Show (even though most pundits regard the CES show as largely irrelevant).

http://www.radioink.com/Article.asp?id=2368203&spid=24698

He says: "Broadcast radio continues to increase its listening audience..." That may be true, but it's analog, Bob, not digital.

Looks like only iBiquity is still optimistic about HD Radio. The rest of us are waiting for it to finally get shut off so the interference will stop. iBuquity's HD Radio was flawed from the beginning and never stood a chance. Nowadays people can carry thousands of songs with them on an ipod/MP3 player making music HD subchannels a tough sell. Especially when you can easily beat HD Radio's audio quality with a higher bitrate MP3.
 
Good question, how do you keep a HD-2 subchannel locked in. I've hear from people who listen to HD-2 and subchannels that you have to be super close to the transmitter. Like if I wanted to listen to the HD-2 channel for WKTK 98.5 (Just an example) I would have to live in Williston or Morriston. I would have difficulty locking in the HD-2 subchannel in lets say the stations COL which is Crystal River. Which is a good 30 miles away from KTK's stick in Levy County.

Or for a Tampa station I would have to be right in Riverview or within close proximity like Brandon. Don't you believe that might be one reason HD Radio is not doing too well.
 
I find that HD radio reception in the area where I generally listen (the NYC metro area) has improved considerably over the past few years. While a number of HD stations are still tough to receive, some others have recently been coming in quite reliably over a radius of at least 30 miles from the station's antennas. I believe that is due mainly to increases in power that the stations have implemented on their HD signals. Considering that their power output is still only a fraction of that used for the analog signals, it seems to me that HD radio signals actually get out quite well. I do enjoy listening to a few HD subchannels that offer formats such as country music and alternative rock that are unavailable on the regular frequencies (it must seem strange to people in other parts of the U.S. that one needs HD to listen to country radio).
Too bad that a separate set of frequencies was not allocated for HD radio. Then higher power could be used, without the concern of causing interference to existing analog signals.
As a considerable number of new car models are just starting to offer HD radio, and the number of HD FM subchannels continues to grow, it seems premature to pronounce HD radio a flop. Listening to radio over 3G or 4G phone services remains an expensive proposition, and most cellular carriers are cutting back on unlimited data plans.
 
Barry said:
I find that HD radio reception in the area where I generally listen (the NYC metro area) has improved considerably over the past few years. While a number of HD stations are still tough to receive, some others have recently been coming in quite reliably over a radius of at least 30 miles from the station's antennas. I believe that is due mainly to increases in power that the stations have implemented on their HD signals. Considering that their power output is still only a fraction of that used for the analog signals, it seems to me that HD radio signals actually get out quite well. I do enjoy listening to a few HD subchannels that offer formats such as country music and alternative rock that are unavailable on the regular frequencies (it must seem strange to people in other parts of the U.S. that one needs HD to listen to country radio).
Too bad that a separate set of frequencies was not allocated for HD radio. Then higher power could be used, without the concern of causing interference to existing analog signals.
As a considerable number of new car models are just starting to offer HD radio, and the number of HD FM subchannels continues to grow, it seems premature to pronounce HD radio a flop. Listening to radio over 3G or 4G phone services remains an expensive proposition, and most cellular carriers are cutting back on unlimited data plans.

New York City is a special reception situation because broadcasters have been scrambling for ten years to get their coverage back to the level they had from the WTC tower complex. The backups and alternatives were not as good. I believe once the new 1WTC building is available for broadcasters, coverage should as good, or better than it was pre-911.

New York has so many stations HD radio might offer enough HD-2 formats to make it viable. Below the top 20 markets, you might only get half a dozen to a dozen HD-2 channels, even less that offer anything unique. Re-broadcasting an AM station is not really that compelling. I'm talking about things not available on a non-HD radios already. Specialty music, etc. If you have 20 to 30 compelling HD-2 formats in NY, Chicago, LA - that is a lot to select from. Realistically, the people with satellite probably regularly listen to about that number of channels.

In the Houston market - I think we are 5 or 6 - there are only two HD-2 formats I find compelling, and both are on rim shot stations. So I would be back to needed an outdoor antenna (prohibited by the HOA), or a Pioneer Supertuner 3D in the car, which isn't possible because newer cars just don't integrate an aftermarket radio well, even with custom mounting kits and wiring harnesses. And portable? The only thing that approaches enough sensitivity is the new CCrane radio-EP, and it doesn't have HD capability. In other words, for HD-2 channels I am interested in - I am basically screwed. And a paltry 10 dB power increase wouldn't help that situation. The stations being closer than 40 miles would help. And that is in market 5 or 6. And I'm a DX'er that knows exactly what to do to make HD reception work. Not exactly your average consumer. Would I do it for 20 or 30 HD-2 channels with compelling format? Of course! But only two - it is a waste of time. Both of those formats are available multiple places on radio apps, both are on satellite in the car, etc. 2 channels vs. dozens via another - easier reception method. Which way do YOU think consumers with NO DX experience will go?!

I totally agree - we needed a new band for HD. That didn't happen because the FCC holds onto spectrum allocated for antiquated services like they are sacrosanct. If you have to buy a new radio anyways for HD - what difference would it make if there was a new band? Just auction frequency allocations in the new band to interested parties and presto - existing broadcasters can get in on the new band, there would be no interference to existing services, and the band, receivers, and antennas could have been optimized for perfect reception - just like satellite does with their antennas and receivers. A quarter size antenna, tethered to a 1/2 pack of cigarette size receiver, I've got 22,000 mile reception - interrupted only by overpasses. Pretty darn reliable! If HD was the same way, it would have been a success at least to the same degree as satellite. Instead, you got to be a DX'er buying the best tuner ever made, with a huge outdoor antenna unless you are right on top of the towers. Not a recipe for success.

The sad thing is - the HD advocates could have jumped on the recently vacated TV channel 2-6, or even 5 and 6 as the new HD band. They didn't do it. They let it go to internet services instead. How is that for signing your own death warrant?! If they had jumped right on this, we'd have had HD radios that really work for at least a couple of years by now. It may not be too late - there haven't been enough HD radios sold to make a difference anyway - the need to petition the FCC for spectrum for a new HD radio band right now because time is ticking away.
 
^ Problem is, channels 2-6 have *not* been vacated. I just caught DT 3 WBRA Roanoke on New Year's Eve, from Florida. There are still a small handful of DTV stations still using 2-6....but I am sure that very *few* of these actually *wanna* be there. I understand that WPVI in Philly, which still uses DT 6, wants to get outta there (due to reception issues), but there are no other channels in which to move.

(I believe that 2-6 were *supposed* to have been phased out when the initial DTV plan went into effect, but it did not happen.)

cd
 
Ok here's what I don't understand. Everyone expects HD to be flawless, but satellite cutting out behind buildings and under bridges is considered acceptable? That doesn't make much sense.

Back when I had xm neither Jackson nor Mobile had urban boosters. And the satellite signal was off more than it was on. Yet both cities have lots of xm listeners who apparently put up with all the dropouts. There seems to be a double standard at work here. It applies 3-4g streaming as well. Dropouts are expected and apparently tolerated.

Also, what's this about "the internet" getting tv channels 2-6? There's still plenty of digital tv on that band.
 
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