One reason why even HD FM will fail in the marketplace.

[Wimmmex]

1070 in LA is CBS.

My bad.

Except for KFI, the rest have very little listening.

AM Radio has very little listening.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

> Then he must have a learning disability or work for a dealer of entry-level cars because virtually all high-level cars

And that is the thing HD advocates always say - but comparatively few auto sales nationwide are high-level because most people can't afford a car that costs as much as a small house. Nevertheless, I did a quick survey of GM, Ford, and Chrysler web sites and HD radio appears to be at least an option you can buy. That gives HD a ray of hope. But unless it is standard equipment, it is unlikely that consumers will preferentially pay for it. OEM car audio systems have been horribly overpriced for years, given the sticker shock it is more likely that people will economize on less expensive options. The way cars are displayed in dealerships, you pretty much have a hodgepodge of cars with different colors and options. I sometimes wonder how much input the dealer has into what Detroit ships them. If the system is standard, and it works, people will use it and HD FM has a chance. But if it doesn't work - game over. Because consumers won't tolerate unreliability and will give up after a few seconds.

> I have talked with several car salesmen and they all admit that customers don't specifically ask for digital radio, rather their interests run to MP3 and USB players with sat radio almost being a given these days. I would call that priority, not apathy.

Or worse - to them digital radio means satellite.

> Unlike the other terrible products you mention the Edsel was a good product (essentially an upgraded Mercury) but introduced at exactly the wrong time. While digital radio is a partially flawed product, especially the AM version, it does work well under certain conditions. Like the Edsel though it provides only an insignificant upgrade to the product line.

Agreed about the Edsel - it is perception that matters in most cases.

> I have yet to meet anyone who is distressed his/her car has a whip antenna. I really doubt this is a determining factor in car selection.

Most new cars don't have one. It is probably more automakers than buyers who don't want one. When shopping for my latest vehicle, I selected one in part because it had a real whip antenna. Because the other stuff doesn't work.

> An indoor antenna can work as effectively in most metro areas where digital radio is prevalent.

Houston is a metro area with class C stations. The best indoor antenna made - the Godar with actual GAIN over a dipole is ineffective at getting at least two local HD stations. it takes an outdoor antenna - something most consumers either can't or won't do for FM HD.

> The opinions I've read dealing with the non-acceptance of C-Quam have more to do with the general demise of AM than C-Quam specifically. By the time C-Quam came along music radio had moved to FM. C-Quam became a technology that was no longer needed and, as it required a new radio, was rejected by the public.

Agreed - AM has moved to the trivialities of talk and sports and foreign.

If FM moves in that direction - then consumers will abandon FM because it no longer has compelling format. However, as much as I distain talk radio, it does seem to keep high power AM stations in large markets towards the top of the ratings. So speculation about the demise of AM is, for the moment, premature.

 

[davideduardo]

My bad.

Except for KFI, the rest have very little listening.

AM Radio has very little listening.

No, that's not true. In the markets where there are good AM signals, there is quite a bit of listening to many of the good signals. The problem is that some big markets like DC, Houston, Phoenix, have no true full market coverage AMs. Others may have 1 to 3 good signals. Only a few, like NYC and Chicago, have 3 to 6 truly full signals. But there are over a dozen or more full FMs in each of those major markets.

If you look at the top 100 markets, only about 170 stations cover at least 80% of the market day and night with a usable signal. That's an average of less than one station per market. So most AMs don't get listening because they don't have competitive signals even before we talk about programming, the image of AM, etc.

15 of the top 50 billers in the US are AM. They have ratings commensurate with their billings. In fact, most of those stations over-perform and have over a 1:1 power ratio.

What you should say is that stations with miserable signals have little listening. The few major market AMs with really good signals tend to do very well. Unfortunately, there are few of those.

The only thing worse than an AM with a bad signal is an AM with a bad signal that tries to do HD

 

[davideduardo]

Or worse - to them digital radio means satellite.

No, "satellite" means satellite. Pandora and iHeart and Uforia mean digital radio.

Agreed - AM has moved to the trivialities of talk and sports and foreign.

Those trivial AMs represent 15 of the top billing stations in the US.

 

[davideduardo]

[
They are not "left to die"...but HD sub-channels are by their very nature a place for formats that cannot command their own analog/main channel...either in terms of audience or revenue.

The only "successful" HD subchannels are either the ones that were moved to the main channel (KAMP in LA, for example) or the many that use the HD-2 or HD-3 to get on a translator where they get listening. The HD-2 channels are mostly computers in a rack or relays of a stream from somewhere else.

If you worked in radio, you might see those. Or your station might have done them for your company.

I don't know of any company that paid to try to find out if HD sounded better than analog, for AM or FM. It is too subjective and people can't differentiate when "scoring" between the content and the delivery system. The other studies I have seen are self-serving and seriously flawed in methodology and recruitment.

Yeah, that's it. Those major broadcasters CC, CBS, Citadel, Etc.....are all trembling under pressure from the big bad iBiquity. None of them understand HD like you on an anonymous message board filled withy hobbyiusts and DX-ers.

The raison d'être for HD is long gone. The major groups helped capitalize iBiquity when there was a fear of digital and satellite. They were stakeholders, and had a vested interest. But today the issue is not digital vs. analog, it is OTA radio vs smartphones. The playing field did not tilt, it moved.

raison d'être

There is no way broadcasters are going to turn off the ability to have extra streams of programming.

Yeah, sure. That's why nearly no broadcaster has HD gear on the auxiliary transmitter, and unless they "feed" a translator, are often off the air, have big empty holes or worse.

There is no finish line. Just like when automakers started making FM a 'stock' item...that led to universal usage.

You have that backwards. Automakers started putting FM in as standard gear because buyers demanded it, and were seen to be favoring the cars that came with it standard over those that did not. There is no consumer demand for HD at the auto sales level.

You can't save AM...PERIOD.....it's in a death spiral.

The big signal AMs are very much alive, and will be for many years. This is not a one or two year decline... it's a 5 to 10 year decline.

>> So will FM HD be without adoption by the big 3 automakers. Good luck with that

Reality again? Most new cars come with HD now. Every automaker is including it.

Not as standard and not on every model. I just bought a Lexus hybrid and if it has standard HD, I can't find it.

This is a better strategy than concentrating on getting HD into individual radios at Best Buy...as no one goes into Best Buy to buy a 'radio' anymore.

There are two huge defects in your arguments.

First, were all cars to come with HD, it would take 10 years to get just half the cars on the road to have HD. The average age of the US fleet is approaching 11 years.

Second, only about a third of all listening takes place in the car.

So, in about a decade, one-sixth of all listening could be to HD... if OTA radio is even around by then.

 

[landtuna]

No, "satellite" means satellite. Pandora and iHeart and Uforia mean digital radio.

In my neck of the woods Pandora and iHeart mean "Internet radio". Almost nobody but me uses the term digital radio.

 

[davideduardo]

In my neck of the woods Pandora and iHeart mean "Internet radio". Almost nobody but me uses the term digital radio.

I agree with that point. But all the people that I have heard in many research projects just call Pandora et. al. "radio" without the "internet". In fact, the term "streaming" is much more frequently heard... but generally, Pandora is just radio you listen to on your smartphone.

My point was that nobody speaks of satellite radio using the "digital" term.

 

[landtuna]

And that is the thing HD advocates always say - but comparatively few auto sales nationwide are high-level because most people can't afford a car that costs as much as a small house. Nevertheless, I did a quick survey of GM, Ford, and Chrysler web sites and HD radio appears to be at least an option you can buy. That gives HD a ray of hope. But unless it is standard equipment, it is unlikely that consumers will preferentially pay for it. OEM car audio systems have been horribly overpriced for years, given the sticker shock it is more likely that people will economize on less expensive options.

I am not an "HD advocate". I listen to it only because it contains content that isn't available on analog FM.

I also divide cars into high (over $25,000) and low-level (under $25,000) but even some low-level cars offer digital radio (along with the other variations). Mine happened to come wrapped in a full-featured entertainment system along with navigation. Like I said, it is not a popular option by itself.

The way cars are displayed in dealerships, you pretty much have a hodgepodge of cars with different colors and options. I sometimes wonder how much input the dealer has into what Detroit ships them. If the system is standard, and it works, people will use it and HD FM has a chance. But if it doesn't work - game over. Because consumers won't tolerate unreliability and will give up after a few seconds.

Dealers order what is selling optioned with the best selling factory add-ons. They also push leases so that buyers can more easily make the monthly payment as opposed to purchasing the car. That is why navigation systems are so common even though they are expensive.

Or worse - to them digital radio means satellite.

Not in my market. You won't hear many people use the term digital radio. If they use any term it is the common HD radio because they've heard the commercials.

Most new cars don't have one. It is probably more automakers than buyers who don't want one. When shopping for my latest vehicle, I selected one in part because it had a real whip antenna. Because the other stuff doesn't work.

Perhaps it is the geography in which I live but my little shark antenna works perfectly. In the 18 months I've owned my car there is only one dead spot I've found for HD radio and that one is right next to the Scottsdale Air Park so I am guessing that there is something unfriendly going on over there. Even driving on Sky Harbor I get no drop outs.

Houston is a metro area with class C stations. The best indoor antenna made - the Godar with actual GAIN over a dipole is ineffective at getting at least two local HD stations. it takes an outdoor antenna - something most consumers either can't or won't do for FM HD.

Most of Phoenix's radio and TV stations all transmit from a mountain about 1,800 feet over the desert plain. Unless your antenna is at the eastern end of the lateral ridge of those mountains you have no trouble receiving those stations. Some are located down in the city proper (mostly AM's) and, with only a couple of exceptions, are not receivable or full of static particularly at night. I believe Houston is as flat as Phoenix but don't remember any high places to put a transmitter. That is most likely your problem - insufficient HAAT.

 

[davideduardo]

Most of Phoenix's radio and TV stations all transmit from a mountain about 1,800 feet over the desert plain. Unless your antenna is at the eastern end of the lateral ridge of those mountains you have no trouble receiving those stations. Some are located down in the city proper (mostly AM's) and, with only a couple of exceptions, are not receivable or full of static particularly at night. I believe Houston is as flat as Phoenix but don't remember any high places to put a transmitter. That is most likely your problem - insufficient HAAT.

The bulk of Houston's Full C's are on the Senior Road tower, which is 2000 feet tall. Higher than the South Mountain sites, which at roughly 1600' to 1800' also has shadowing caused by the mountain itself as well as other hills like Camelback throughout the PHX metro. A few not on the Senior Road facility are also on very high towers. And there are no significant terrain obstructions... unlike Phoenix.

And a lot of the Phoenix FMs are not on South Mountain. There is a big collection on Radio Mountain SSW of Prescott, and some come from the east as far away as Globe or the west (see the Buckey COL station).

Among the local FMs "home to market" not on South mountain are KQMR, KLVK, KLNZ, KAJM, KNRJ, KMVA, KVIB, KKFT, KCDX and KRDE as well as KDVA, KVVA, KRPH, KHOT, KEXX, KSWG, KOMR, KPHF, KNAI and KHOV.

 

[landtuna]

The bulk of Houston's Full C's are on the Senior Road tower, which is 2000 feet tall. Higher than the South Mountain sites, which at roughly 1600' to 1800' also has shadowing caused by the mountain itself as well as other hills like Camelback throughout the PHX metro. A few not on the Senior Road facility are also on very high towers. And there are no significant terrain obstructions... unlike Phoenix.

Then what would you attribute the problems of digital radio to in the Houston market? I have regularly gotten perfect reception from our local HD-2's up to 70 miles outside the Phoenix metro area (but in a direct line of sight with South Mountain). If the towers in Houston have no intervening interference why wouldn't they equal the Phoenix performance? Would the oppressive humidity there make a difference?

And a lot of the Phoenix FMs are not on South Mountain. There is a big collection on Radio Mountain SSW of Prescott, and some come from the east as far away as Globe or the west (see the Buckey COL station).

I figured you would comment on that. I didn't include them because they don't normally cover the entire metro area. I live in the SE Valley and cannot receive any of them consistently or without interference. My father-in-law, who lives in Sun City (far NW Valley) receives them just fine but they are definitely all rim shots as far as most of us in the Valley are concerned.

Among the local FMs "home to market" not on South mountain are KQMR, KLVK, KLNZ, KAJM, KNRJ, KMVA, KVIB, KKFT, KCDX and KRDE as well as KDVA, KVVA, KRPH, KHOT, KEXX, KSWG, KOMR, KPHF, KNAI and KHOV.

Is it significant that many of these are Spanish language (or Latino programming) and direct their signals to the west and southwest Valley?

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Reason for a big HD-FM "fail" in my market is the use of HD-FM on Class A and B1 stations located in the suburbs - hence the ability to lock in HD, yet alone analog stereo FM without a diversity tuner. 93.5 = B1 7KW @ 371' and 15 miles out. 98.3= A 3.4KW. 106.5= A 4.8KW @ 350' in the boonies, they even switched to mono to try and improve city grade coverage, yet alone cruddy HD. 105.5FM A 4.3KW @ 381' uses an HD-2 stream to feed a 90W translator. All are Cumulus crud without metadata. FAIL on all their stations in this market. The constantly flashing "HD" logo almost gives me a seizure. Clear Channel has two 50KW FM's here with HD, and HD-2 is used to relay their AM sister stations - dynamic RDS/HD data too - they cut the HD mustard at least, but HD-1 doesn't sound quite as sharp as analog stereo, thanks to the HD-2 drain. Both CC AM-HD's are shutdown. No interesting offering on HD-2. Local NPR has no interest in HD after I inquired. Class A & B1 really need the whole 10dB digital signal to have a chance, in my opinion, but nobody wants to spend a penny more on iBiquity hardware.

 

[davideduardo]

Is it significant that many of these are Spanish language (or Latino programming) and direct their signals to the west and southwest Valley?

KVIB, from Radio Mountan, is far NNW of the market. KOMR is licensed to Sun City, Northwest of downtown. KHOV is in Wickenburg. KLNZ is licensed to Glendale and transmits from a location to the far NW of Glendale. KQMR and KVVA are to the E and SE, and KHOT is technically to the NE but really gets most of its coverage from the downtown booster.

They are all, so some degree, rimshots and are pretty well distributed on all sides of the market except south.

 

[KB1OKL]

They lock in fine for me.

We've already established that you have a crappy radio to begin. That's a non-starter.

I think you have me confused with someone else I have a Sony-XDR F1HD tuner

 

[JohnnyElectron]

I've already had two Directed Electronics DMHD-1000 fail on me; I'm on my 3rd and last one. Someone did report that there are different firmwares in these DICE units, so some will reverse decode CQUAM, some will not. They all have a missing ground on the audio jacks.

 

[Wimmmex]

[

The major groups helped capitalize iBiquity when there was a fear of digital and satellite. They were stakeholders, and had a vested interest.

But now it's there...and they are not closing up shop.

That's why nearly no broadcaster has HD gear on the auxiliary transmitter, and unless they "feed" a translator, are often off the air, have big empty holes or worse.

But...it's not going away. Boradcasters are not going to part with the ability to send out an additional stream of audio.

You have that backwards. Automakers started putting FM in as standard gear because buyers demanded it,

No, I don't have it backwards...it's a snowball effect. When people demanded it, Detroit put it in cars....and FM got more listeners/samplers...and more people demanded it, etc., etc.

The big signal AMs are very much alive, and will be for many years. This is not a one or two year decline... it's a 5 to 10 year decline.

So, you can fortell the future?

There are a few big AM's in every market with big signals...and holding onto a format that benefits them. The rest are on life-support.

First, were all cars to come with HD, it would take 10 years to get just half the cars on the road to have HD.

Doesn't matter. This is how it starts.

Second, only about a third of all listening takes place in the car.

It's one of the few places "new radios" are being used. And it's also the place where people discover new stations.

 

[davideduardo]

[

But now it's there...and they are not closing up shop.

You don't know how long the VC's that put the money in iBiquity will wait. It can't be making money, and the burn capital has to be running low.

But...it's not going away. Boradcasters are not going to part with the ability to send out an additional stream of audio.

AM HD is all but over. FM is only useful so that operators can get translators and get another FM signal. If it were not for that fact, there would be a lot of attrition even on FM.

No, I don't have it backwards...it's a snowball effect. When people demanded it, Detroit put it in cars....and FM got more listeners/samplers...and more people demanded it, etc., etc.

When Detroit started making FM standard on most models, FM was at parity with AM for overall listening. They were pushed into making FM a no-charge, standard equipment proposition because people no longer wanted AM only, and were likely to buy a different brand of car rather than $200 extra for FM when FM was then the dominant band.

So, you can fortell the future?

No, but I can do a business model with multi-year projections quite well. They teach you that in B-school, you know.

There are a few big AM's in every market with big signals...and holding onto a format that benefits them. The rest are on life-support.

There are not a few big AMs in every market. There are many markets with no full signal AMs,

However, there are many niche options for the lesser AMs. Not, to be sure, ratings driven, but profitable ones. Ethnic... Russian in NYC, Farsi in LA, Vietnamese in Houston. Religious... teaching as well as gospel. Brokered... pay and play. And those options will continue strong as they give voices to communities and faith groups.

It's one of the few places "new radios" are being used. And it's also the place where people discover new stations.

Most of the buyers of cars with HD are unaware of the fact that they have the capability. They want smartphone connectivity, not the stupid "stations between the stations".

 

[diymedia]

You don't know how long the VC's that put the money in iBiquity will wait. It can't be making money, and the burn capital has to be running low.

The fact that iBiquity makes announcements a few times each year announcing new rounds of VC funding is telling. The last cash-burn rate reported for the company was $2.1 million a month, but that was way back in 2003. It can't be making any bank off broadcaster-licensing, and even with some automotive uptake I find it difficult to see receiver-side license fees as a sustainable revenue-generator, either. Nor has it ever been made clear just how much material support iBiquity has received from its broadcaster-investors, and whether they are still subsidizing the company to any significant degree. The fact that innovation in the HD space has been confined to licensees (first NPR, now Emmis) is also telling.

 

[Wimmmex]

You don't know how long the VC's that put the money in iBiquity will wait.

Nor do you. But the fact that it it opens up more choices on the dial, allows more streams of programming over the air, owned by the same operators. I don't think anyone is in a hurry....

When Detroit started making FM standard on most models, FM was at parity with AM for overall listening.

This was a process over a few years...so I don't think you can make such a cut and dry statement. A helped B....B helped A. Add the element of 'N' (time.

No, but I can do a business model with multi-year projections quite well.

Opinions are a dime a dozen. I'm sure it's worth every penny!

There are not a few big AMs in every market.

Every major[/] market. I thought we were on the same page.

However, there are many niche options for the lesser AMs. Not, to be sure, ratings driven, but profitable ones.

Is it about profit...or is it about getting more people to listen? Sure, Salem takes over an AM property...makes money...but gives listeners another reason to leave AM behind as the programming is neither relevant or compelling to the masses.

And those options will continue strong as they give voices to communities and faith groups.

And the masses will start thinking of AM as shortwave. Quirky, unreliable, noisy...without any programming relevant to their lives.

Most of the buyers of cars with HD are unaware of the fact that they have the capability.

So what? My father had an FM in his car for years and never knew it.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Class A & B1 really need the whole 10dB digital signal to have a chance, in my opinion, but nobody wants to spend a penny more on iBiquity hardware.

I have a couple of problems with the 10 dB increase.

(1) FM fades in the fringes due to terrain and airplane approach paths, etc. can be on the order of 60 dB. Given the lock times of HD, a mere 10 dB increase is not going to help in the slightest with picket fencing and rapid fades. It might penetrate buildings a few more feet, but how many jobs allow someone to listen to the radio all day? Not many. Most places I have worked ban radios altogether.

(2) 10 dB power increase in the sidebands breaches the threshold were the FM station self-interferes. It degrades the analog signal that the majority of people still listen to.

 

[davideduardo]

Nor do you. But the fact that it it opens up more choices on the dial, allows more streams of programming over the air, owned by the same operators. I don't think anyone is in a hurry....

I do know that many of the broadcast companies that put seed capital into iBiquity have been deeply affected by the recession and new media. They are not investing in HD radio as a company nor are any adding HD to non-HD stations in their portfolios.

The fact that, after the initial spurt, companies did not even follow up by giving HD capability to their auxiliary transmitters shows the degree of commitment to the system.

And the only positive effect of HD has been in cases where it allowed the acquisition and separate programming of a translator, thus overcoming market caps and providing a useful new service.

This was a process over a few years...so I don't think you can make such a cut and dry statement. A helped B....B helped A. Add the element of 'N' (time.

From the FCC simulcast ruling in 1967 to ratings parity of FM there were 10 years.... not "a few years". And it took that tipping point for car dealers to stop making FM an added cost accessory.

This week's "Radio World" headlines the fact that consumer demand is driving the new dashboard options. The same happened in the 70's. Consumers found FM where they listened the most, and wanted it in the car, too.

Listeners have not found HD on home and work radios, so they don't know they want it in the car. What they want is what they do use: streaming.

Not HD.

Every major[/] market. I thought we were on the same page.

Wrong again, thanks for playing.

Major markets without a full coverage, day and night, AM include Miami, Houston, Phoenix, Washington, DC, Riverside/San Bernardino, San Jose, Columbus, OH, Norfolk / Portsmouth /Hampton, Monterrey / Salinas, San Diego, Tucson, Austin, Little Rock... and many more. The ones with only one full signal in the Top Hundred markets is even longer.

Is it about profit...or is it about getting more people to listen? Sure, Salem takes over an AM property...makes money...but gives listeners another reason to leave AM behind as the programming is neither relevant or compelling to the masses.

It's relevant to the smaller, but still sizable, audiences that stations that groups like Salem, Arthur Liu and Crawford operate. You can't decide what kinds of formats are good uses and which are bad.

If I'm Vietnamese and live in NW Orange County, I love KVNR. But if I am a non-ethnic member of the general public, I already have dozens of options with much, much better signals. So Vietnamese programming on 1480 is a very good and viable and useful service.

So what? My father had an FM in his car for years and never knew it.

Probably because he was not interested in the additional content. I can't think of one thing on HD in New York or Los Angeles (since you are obsessed with "major markets" that would make me reactivate the HD on my different car radios. In fact, there is a positive benefit in keeping it off which is avoiding the horrible flip-flops to analog when I am driving in and out of station coverage areas.