One reason why even HD FM will fail in the marketplace.

[Wimmmex]

I do know that many of the broadcast companies that put seed capital into iBiquity have been deeply affected by the recession and new media. They are not investing in HD radio as a company nor are any adding HD to non-HD stations in their portfolios.

And I know of many broadcast companies that are not going to part with it.

The fact that, after the initial spurt, companies did not even follow up by giving HD capability to their auxiliary transmitters shows the degree of commitment to the system.

I knew of stations that didn't even have a stereo backup TX. Thats just life.

From the FCC simulcast ruling in 1967 to ratings parity of FM there were 10 years.... not "a few years".

And my point was it wasn't instantaneous. It was gradual, and one thing helped the other.

This week's "Radio World" headlines the fact that consumer demand is driving the new dashboard options. The same happened in the 70's. Consumers found FM where they listened the most, and wanted it in the car, too.

And the fact that more new cars had it....made people sample and continue to listen to FM stations.

Listeners have not found HD on home and work radios, so they don't know they want it in the car.

Most don't know HD exists...and have no clue there are additional formats and genres there.

Wrong again, thanks for playing.

I know this is how a consultant likes to operate....speak as if they are the only one who understands, and is the last word in every discussion. That's probably the world you live in. Here in an internet discussion board we can see thru the bullshit, and call it that.

So, place your calling card elsewhere...it doesn't carry any weight here. And now some lovely parting gifts for you.

It's relevant to the smaller, but still sizable, audiences that stations that groups like Salem, Arthur Liu and Crawford operate. You can't decide what kinds of formats are good uses and which are bad.

I can see what people want to listen to...and what they don't. Many of Salem and Liu's stations don't even meet minimum reporting.

So Vietnamese programming on 1480 is a very good and viable and useful service.

Sure...better yet, send the programming down a dedicated phone line to that house that wants that one kind of programming. Are we talking about BROADcasting or MASS communications? ...or just cashing in?

I can't think of one thing on HD in New York or Los Angeles (since you are obsessed with "major markets" that would make me reactivate the HD on my different car radios.

No, not "obsessed" with major markets...that's just where the bulk of listening is done.

And a consultant (isn't that what you are?), comparing your tastes and listening habits is a great example tastes and listening habits of the populace?

I don't think so. And the lovely Carol Merrill has the home version of our game for you.

 

[davideduardo]

And I know of many broadcast companies that are not going to part with it.

Sure, they will keep the HD on the FMs as long as major capex and maintenenance costs are not involved. We are already seeing many stations, particularly AMs, turn HD off rather than spend to repair or replace. And very few have spent on the authorized power increases, even if their facility qualifies for the boost.

I knew of stations that didn't even have a stereo backup TX. Thats just life.

I don't know of major market AM stations whose aux transmitters don't have stereo capability. The investment is minimal, unlike the cost of HD. You are obfuscating by using points that are just not factual.

And my point was it wasn't instantaneous. It was gradual, and one thing helped the other.

Perhaps having FM in the car did introduce a few to the band, but by the time FM became standard, FM already had more than half the audience. Programming drove receiver purchases.

On the other hand, there is no HD-2 programming interesting enough to drive receiver sales for HD. The exception might be for the Radio Desi Hindi programming on a couple of HD-2s in markets with considerable Indian populations, since there is no other OTA source of Bollywood hits and Indian programming in those markets.

And the fact that more new cars had it....made people sample and continue to listen to FM stations.

They were already listening. And they no longer were willing to pay extra for FM in the car, and automakers had to take a hit in revenue to make FM standard or they would lose sales. As with the dashboard, the car makers respond to what the audience wants. Nobody wants HD. Ask any car dealer.

Most don't know HD exists...and have no clue there are additional formats and genres there.

Yet the HD Alliance, to which I was a delegate in its initial stages, ran through hundreds of millions of dollars worth of inventory on the major stations of the largest groups in the country. And it had no effect. And you admit most do not know HD exists.

The Alliance website is gone, and the last spots they created were for Christmas of 2012 to get Best Buy to stock HD radios. My nearest Best Buy does not have any today, and the employees don't know what HD is. That does not sound like growth and industry support, does it?

I know this is how a consultant likes to operate....speak as if they are the only one who understands, and is the last word in every discussion. That's probably the world you live in. Here in an internet discussion board we can see thru the bullshit, and call it that.

You made a patently and demonstrably false statement about the availability of viable, full signal AMs in every major market. I gave you multiple examples of markets with not a single full coverage AM, and you respond with an ad hominem.

I can see what people want to listen to...and what they don't. Many of Salem and Liu's stations don't even meet minimum reporting.

The Asian and other non-Spanish language stations don't tend to show because Nielsen has no DST and no sampling quotas for speakers of any language except Spanish. So the audience of such stations is undermeasured. Salem's stations, for the most part make the book and thus meet Minimum Reporting Standards, but they are not subscribed in most markets so the numbers do not appear in the online reports.

Sure...better yet, send the programming down a dedicated phone line to that house that wants that one kind of programming. Are we talking about BROADcasting or MASS communications? ...or just cashing in?

There are 270,000 Vietnamese in the LA metro. In other words, as many people as a medium size rated market. That's a sizable mass market and one deserving of service.

And a consultant (isn't that what you are?), comparing your tastes and listening habits is a great example tastes and listening habits of the populace?

My occupation in this instance is irrelevant. I am showing the effects of the laws of physics on radio signals, and that applies to people of all walks of life. The HD signals pop in and out in fringe areas, which is annoying. They drop out under bridges and in areas with dense buildings. And many stations don't perfectly synch the time delays. As long as HD has vastly inferior coverage to the analog signal, we will have these issues and they discourage usage by anyone.

 

[DaveBayArea]

But the fact that it it opens up more choices on the dial, allows more streams of programming over the air, owned by the same operators.

I hear this all the time, and in fact it is true for HD stations in Texas or other areas where terrain is flat and power levels are high. Where this falls apart is in congested areas where two adjacent channels have strong signals in the same coverage area. FM allocations assume a 200 KHz channel and today's modern tuners filter those channels just fine.

HD requires a 400 KHz channel, and an adjacent channel analog signal renders the HD sideband useless. At the station where I am employed there are strong analog signals on each of the adjacent channels. As a result, reliable HD reception is not possible six miles from our class B-1 transmitter. Even at -14 dbc. The problems are due to terrain, for sure. But the result has been a decrease in choices on the dial, not an increase. If Ibiquity ever hopes to make HD a universal option everywhere they need to eventually lobby for a channel allocation scheme that addresses the increased bandwidth requirements of their system.

Dave B.

 

[TheBigA]

If Ibiquity ever hopes to make HD a universal option everywhere they need to eventually lobby for a channel allocation scheme that addresses the increased bandwidth requirements of their system.

I think if the FCC were to do any re-allocation, it would not be for one profit-making company's benefit. But chances are not good for any re-allocation of the radio band. That is not an option they're looking into.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

The FCC was smart at least once - back in 1941 when they re-aligned the AM band. Time to do that with the FM band when they expand it by 12MHz to include two newly vacated TV channels.

 

[Wimmmex]

Sure, they will keep the HD on the FMs as long as major capex and maintenenance costs are not involved.

Thanks.....

We are already seeing many stations, particularly AMs, turn HD off rather than spend to repair or replace.

We could go into the whole state of AM radio...anjd how the whole thing is headed down the toilet. So what AM's do (or don't do) is a moot point. IN any event...there is a whole band of FM HD that's not going anywhere...in spite of the naysayers.

I don't know of major market AM stations whose aux transmitters don't have stereo capability.

I would say MOST major market (are you obsessed with major markets?) AM stations DON'T have stereo capability.

Perhaps having FM in the car did introduce a few to the band,

Thanks.

but by the time FM became standard...

It did not become standard all of the sudden...it was a transition...and gradual.

As I said....a helped b...b helped a.

On the other hand, there is no HD-2 programming interesting enough to drive receiver sales for HD.

There is no HD-1, analog CB, Ham, SWL or any programming to drive receiver sales. Nada... Apathy for radio is at an all time low.

They were already listening.

See above.

Yet the HD Alliance, to which I was a delegate in its initial stages, ran through hundreds of millions of dollars worth of inventory on the major stations of the largest groups in the country.

The "inventory" was mainly given to them free.

And it had no effect. And you admit most do not know HD exists.

The problem with the original pitch is they were selling the technology "FM Sound, CD sound, etc"....and no one cared about that.

They never sold the different formats available. The average person who knows that HD radio exists...have no clue what programming is available on it. For numerous reason, this was never the pitch. And we know passionate compelling programming drives everything.

My nearest Best Buy does not have any today,

Because stocking Best Buy was a mistake in priorities. Because no one is going into Best Buy to by "a radio". The focus has been on Detroit....and surprisingly (to me anyway) successful in getting them into new cars.

You made a patently and demonstrably false statement about the availability of viable, full signal AMs in every major market.

What I said was: Most major markets have a 1 or 2 big signal AM stations.

Name me a top 10 market that doesn't? (I could be wrong.)

I gave you multiple examples of markets with not a single full coverage AM,

Are we talking top 10 markets?

and you respond with an ad hominem.

And you respond ad nauseum.

The Asian and other non-Spanish language stations don't tend to show because

Regardless....they don't show.

There are 270,000 Vietnamese in the LA metro.

Want to program to them? Go ahead. You've made your living programming to non-english speakers, haven't you?

My occupation in this instance is irrelevant.

It is because you speak like a consultant. You don't have conversations. You have grand pronouncements...and when its' a "billable hour" your clients probably accept them.

I have pointed out to you (oh gawd! He questioned the consultant!) the other side of many of your arguments...and you respond with pomposity. (Thanks form playing!) as if you are miffed that someone would question you.

>> As long as HD has vastly inferior coverage to the analog signal, we will have these issues and they discourage usage by anyone.

While HD has it's problems...and an uphill battle...and will probably simply stay an ancillary service with some added functionality...we have been hearing about the demise of HD because it did not catch on as quickly as an iPod.

There is apathy about all kinds of radio everywhere.

It's hard to get anyone excited about anything about radio anymore.

 

[davideduardo]

Here is my summation for Wimmmex:

FM HD has only two viable uses which are 1) an excuse to get a translator and 2) data service usage of HD-2 and beyond, such as traffic data*.

If the major car manufacturers all agree to include HD so as to give consumers real time traffic, HD is sustainable. The small number of HD-2's that have spawned translator-based "stations" is too small to sustain the system.

Since traffic is of importance and can generate revenue only in larger markets, the growth potential for new HD stations is almost totally absent for this option. This brings into play whether iBiquity's licensing model and chip royalty structure can sustain the company based on new car installs exclusively as the home and portable HD market never existed and receivers are nearly gone from the marketplace.

AM HD is useless, and has so many reasons not to exist I can not count them. The majors are: most AMs don't cover their full market, so lower power HD signals are deficient.... audio on analog signal is degraded by limited bandwidth... dropouts and lack of synchronization at stations are annoying to listeners... artifacts caused by low bitrates and dueling codecs make the audio very nasty.

*See really good write up of traffic services yesterday in Inside Radio

 

[MarioMania]

I think Wimmmex giving me a headache

How's the State of HD anyways on AM and FM?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I think Wimmmex giving me a headache

How's the State of HD anyways on AM and FM?

Nothing compared to the headache we are giving him with the REAL state of HD radio.

UGH - just got stuck beside a 97.1 listener while I was trying to listen to 107.5 HD-2. A 2 minute HD blackout at the traffic light. Enough time the song I wanted to hear was over. My radio has a signal strength indicator. FIVE BARS from the other car's IF image. Two bars on HD-2 once he drove off.

AM HD - uh - does anybody seriously still think it is viable? Excuse me, but Rush in compressed HD AM is no more compelling than Rush in analog. I actually listen to him on a station 250 miles away because the local station has audio is muffled by 5 kHz roll-off. WBAP is glorious in wideband analog mono, and almost static free 250 miles away. And it IS penetrating the building where I work! Now THAT is AM done right. If all AM stations took the care with their audio and RF chain that WBAP does, HD would be completely unnecessary.

Radio should go back to the basics - do what it does best, which is to provide a free platform for music and entertainment. Focus on COMPELLING programming, good audio quality, proper RF transmission - instead of pursuing a wild goose like HD. It just isn't that necessary. Better programming is. Improve the content or die.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Can someone tell me why a 1000 watt Class C/Class IV with IBOC, with virtually no daytime or nighttime service area, stays on IBOC almost 100% of the time whereas many 50000 watt stations, even nondirectional stations, have them off a good percentage of the time?

On thing I am sure of, if IBOC becomes the exclusive standard, and analog radio goes off, radio, AM or FM, will not survive. Doesn't matter how big their service area is, if everyone has to get a new radio, they will explore other options. Then they will only have one or two radios, where they might have half a dozen or more now, in every room of the house. What, NuTone Stereo Intercoms will come out so that we can hear one station all over the house? People are too selfish to not have their own radio, iPhone, SmartPhone, iPad, iPod, PC, Notebook, or Tablet of any description. And you would want to invest in several new radios at over $100 a crack? Even TV obsolescence is already bothersome. How GREEN is it to throw out all those TVs? Think about all the lead, tin, valuable silver and other elements, and many other environmentally questionable elements in those TVs.

 

[MarioMania]

I don't think there's a need for HD AM or FM

Bring Back the 10 KHz Clear Sound and Stereo for the AM Band

 

[TheBigA]

Bring Back the 10 KHz Clear Sound and Stereo for the AM Band

Good luck with that. It still won't do anything for all the interference or other AM signal problems. Major Armstrong was no dummy.

 

[Wimmmex]

Here is my summation for Wimmmex:

FM HD has only two viable uses which are 1) an excuse to get a translator and 2) data service usage of HD-2 and beyond, such as traffic data*.

Your opinion is duly noted...and racked up as just another bozo on the bus of opinions.

Opinions are everywhere...and yours are worth every cent you are paid by the good folks at Radiodiscussions! ($0.00)

The real state of HD Radio? Meanwhile HD just keeps keeping on!

AM HD is useless, and has so many reasons not to exist I can not count them.

AM's (in general) have very little reason to exist nowadays. Don't believe me? Wait a year or two.

I think Wimmmex giving me a headache

How's the State of HD anyways on AM and FM?

Nothing compared to the headache we are giving him with the REAL state of HD radio.

HD on FM just keeps plugging along!

No headaches here!

Like I said above the "state of AM" in on it's deathbed...so a discussion of HD on AM is not worth the effort.

Bring Back the 10 KHz Clear Sound and Stereo for the AM Band

Good luck with that. It still won't do anything for all the interference or other AM signal problems. Major Armstrong was no dummy.

Mario prefers to live in a dream world.

 

[MarioMania]

AM Stereo only for Music, Mono for talk

I forgot how to set in Audacity/WavePad to sound like AM Stereo

 

[davideduardo]

Your opinion is duly noted...and racked up as just another bozo on the bus of opinions.

The way to discuss something is not to engage in ad hominems but in dialog.

I'd think that the opinion of someone who was involved with one of the broadcaster's original investments in iBiquity, and who was that entity's seat on the HD Alliance organizing stage might be of some significance and value.

But I am at a disadvantage, as are the rest of us, as we don't even know who you are and can't explain your blind loyalty to the technology of HD Radio.

The real state of HD Radio? Meanwhile HD just keeps keeping on!

No, it does not. There is no growth in on-air station counts, few FMs have increased HD power levels, nearly no station has backup HD gear, and AM HD is nearly dead.

AM's (in general) have very little reason to exist nowadays. Don't believe me? Wait a year or two.

Fifteen of the top 50 billing stations in 2013 are AM, and several showed increases in revenue. Maybe that will change in 5 to 10 years, but not in the next 300 to 700 days.

Like I said above the "state of AM" in on it's deathbed...so a discussion of HD on AM is not worth the effort.

"In decline" is an acceptable term for AM, but definitely not moribund. Although that 5 khz analog bandwidth has gone a long way towards hurting AM's listenability.

 

[fordranger797]

I wish the days of this IBOC HD radio would pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OiH2lg_fes

All of that just to allow the world to listen to an HD-2 channel that nobody cares about? Great!
(Granted, the man in this video is driving a PT Cruiser :x )

 

[Wimmmex]

The way to discuss something is not to engage in ad hominems but in dialog.

Says the man who's posts are dripping with sarcasm...ding-sing-ding...Thanks for playing?

Now THATS the way to discuss something right?

We don't even know who you are and can't explain your blind loyalty to the technology of HD Radio.

You don't have to know who I am...we are on an internet discussion board, either you can discuss intelligently...or you can't. Right now I am playing rope-a-dope with you for fun.

BTW..Blind loyalty? If you can read and comprehend...I already pointed out the mistakes of iBiquity's original marketing plan...and that it was never going to be the savior of AM radio. And that it will probably simply stay an ancillary feature which simply adds some functionality to your radio. Like it? Some will...and use it. Others won't.

No blind loyalty here.

There is no growth in on-air station counts

That's because most of the major stations in most of the major markets are already running it. Most major markets can't see any more conversions...they are all pretty much converted. (I am talking about FM's) The smaller stations are holding back to see what happens.

AM HD is nearly dead.

Correction....AM in and of itself is nearly dead.

Fifteen of the top 50 billing stations in 2013 are AM....

And have the expenses (news staffs, sports fees, etc) to put most of that billing into perspective. However, you and I both know that when the formats keeping AM alive eventually move to FM...then that will be the nail in the cofin. (Not overnight, but eventually).

Maybe that will change in 5 to 10 years,

Thank you.

but not in the next 300 to 700 days.

We're both old enough to not think in terms of 300 days.

"In decline" is an acceptable term for AM, but definitely not moribund.

Not yet...but who is arguing that it is not eventually going there?

 

[Wimmmex]

I wish the days of this IBOC HD radio would pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OiH2lg_fes

(Granted, the man in this video is driving a PT Cruiser :x )

You DO realize there is no protected overlapping coverage between KGIG and KNCI, right?

You DO realize that KGIG is 100 watts with a height of 20 feet right? And that KGIG is a LPFM?

 

[diymedia]

I think Wimmmex giving me a headache

How's the State of HD anyways on AM and FM?

Radio World is working on an piece about that right now. And if Wimmmex wants facts, they're not hard to find.

 

[Wimmmex]

And if Wimmmex wants facts, they're not hard to find[/url].

Facts are everywhere...it's who is interpreting them and what their motive is.

Meanwhile, in spite of the naysayers....FM stations are adding and putting more effort into the HD-2-3-4 streams.