Optimod 8600 or Omnia.11 on air?

[oldiesstation]

Maybe we could put "Stroke Me" back in the play list;-)

 

[FFoti1]

What I call a proper comparison is when you get all the processors at your station at the same time. You feed them all with the same audio (your program that you are familiar with), you spend some time getting to know each processor, getting under its skin, learning what it does well, what are the weak points, where can you push it and where you can't... Taking your time as this takes time. It's easy to impress on a 5-minute quick listen, only to find out in the long-term you really can't stand the things you don't even notice a first couple of days.

And after you've done this with all processor, you adjust exactly the same modulation on all of them, put them on the switch and A/B/C compare on-air (or on a separate transmitter). You do both quick switching just to notice the apparent differences in sound texture, but you also leave that switch for half an hour or an hour with one processor and then the other. In the meanwhile, you listen at various locations, with different (large/small, high/low quality) speaker systems you are intimately familiar with as well as those you are not.

In the end, you make a subjective decision based on your preferences. Because of this, your conclusion is very much useless to anybody else... They most likely have different taste, different preferences in what they want, they operate in different markets that requires different kind of performance and their station's programming is completely different as they play different kind of music, have much more or much less talk, have pre-processed their music library or have not and the list just goes on and on...

Which is why someone's general opinion on the processor, I'm sorry to say, really means nothing to you at all. Unless you already know the person well enough to know how it aligns with your own preferences, or you can relate to the experience described. But to have experience, you need to do the above.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

Well said Goran. Kudos to you!

I've said this before, and it's worth restating. Processor evaluations need to happen in the real world environment. This is one reason why we will not be posting audio clips, as they do not offer a true and honest A/B comparison to another device...even if it's the same device! In this day, it's fairly easy to get a product for testing purposes. If you find that to be untrue for any of our products, let me know, and I'll get it resolved. Our sales personnel, and dealers are instructed to make it easy for customers to have access to our stuff.

Seems these processor threads about which one is better are cyclical. In the end, the group comes around to the same outcome, get the boxes and test them.

-Frank Foti

 

[rorban]

Bob,

Most whom post here have not revealed their identities or affiliations. When they do, then it's a whole different scenario.

-Frank Foti

I should have made myself clearer. I was referring to manufacturers, their dealer, and reps. For example, you, I, and Scott from Broadcast Warehouse have all identified ourselves. I would hope that any Orban dealers who might post here will do the same, although that is obviously outside of my control.

If a given poster has a commercial agenda in promoting or making claims about a particular product, then the board's other readers (i.e., the ones who are not manufacturers, reps, or dealers) should know this. I have no particular problem with other posters using pseudonyms, although I think that posting under one's own name is a mark of professionalism and I am glad that this requirement is enforced in several of the broadcast industry-oriented mailing lists to which I subscribe.

Bob Orban

 

[dspxscott]

Bob,

Most whom post here have not revealed their identities or affiliations. When they do, then it's a whole different scenario.

-Frank Foti

I should have made myself clearer. I was referring to manufacturers, their dealer, and reps. For example, you, I, and Scott from Broadcast Warehouse have all identified ourselves. I would hope that any Orban dealers who might post here will do the same, although that is obviously outside of my control.

If a given poster has a commercial agenda in promoting or making claims about a particular product, then the board's other readers (i.e., the ones who are not manufacturers, reps, or dealers) should know this. I have no particular problem with other posters using pseudonyms, although I think that posting under one's own name is a mark of professionalism and I am glad that this requirement is enforced in several of the broadcast industry-oriented mailing lists to which I subscribe.

Bob Orban

Well said Bob.

For what it's worth, i've not frequented this board so much in recent times. Mainly because I've grown bored of the faceless and nameless charachters, who think it's smart to snipe and put down others.

There's been so many occasions where a manufacturers advocate or representative has tried to control the direction of a thread, or even started a new thread to keep a brands or product 'out there'. It becomes comical after a while.

I appreciate that social media and online interaction is part of a modern day company's marketing strategy. It's just a shame when it interferes with the normal board activity because this group has the potential to be a great community forum.

 

[gtomas]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm employed by AVC Croatia (and have been so for the last year) which is part of the AVC Group. AVC is an official dealer and representative of Telos, Omnia and Axia products, among others.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[oldiesstation]

Well,it is certainly unfair to Mr.Orban that there was a hidden agenda since simon or jackos,which ever you prefer is an omnia rep.Now i doubt whether any 11's are on the air there.Mr. Orban is owed an apology..Trade puffery is one thing,deceitful posts another...

 

[stace]

How embarrassing for Omnia

 

[fm-engineer]

Well, I for one hope Frank, Bob, Corny, Goran, and Scott will continue to post here on a regular basis. First, I can understand disclosure at their level. There is nothing wrong with them coming here and updating us on their latest achievements. Secondly, I understand why some would be upset if an undisclosed dealer comes on and describes a shootout where one product blows away the other. Remember what a zoo the Omnia and Orban shootouts were about ten years ago. The best shoot-out is done at my favorite site, with the best exciter, transmitter, antenna, and monitoring equipment. Just me, the PD ???, and the big new digital boxes. Too many variables can be introduced when a large group of people and factory reps are behind the curtains. The typical shootout in say market 25 usually involves each box on for a period of 12-24 hours, with only the key folks really involved. This gives you a chance to monitor using a real world environment.

I do not think the engineer level members here should have to disclose their identity for several reasons: 1. Some groups prohibit employees from message board posts 2. Even an engineer level member here could have an influence on a lesser experienced person i.e. Fm-Engineer and Stace thinks big O blows away little O because they work at WKRP and Z-100. Oldiesstation thinks little O wins because he engineers KFOG. I do feel we should be permitted to pass along our ups and downs of the products to an extent. I always try to remember to say "make sure you test drive it on your own" or something along those lines. We should all encourage true and intelligent discourse amongst our peers. I thought that as the purpose of this board.

 

[jackos]

Hi Simon -- Would you happen to be the Omnia dealer for New Zealand and Australia by any chance? The reason I ask is that manufacturers post on this board frequently and sometimes present strong points of view, but board etiquette requires that we reveal our identities and commercial affiliations. This is only fair to the board's other readers.

Bob Orban
[/quote]

I am sorry, as far as I can tell I have posted about as much personal details as anyone else here. And yes absolutely is the answer to your question, was that not kind of obvious?? I apologise for not supplying the extra pair of hands and a flashlight people.

The questions were - are there products on air and the answer was yes, - are they shipping and the answer was yes I had 5 of them in Melbourne, - the question was have they been tested against the 8600 and the answer was hell yes!

Now had the results been just so so then I would not be making any comment, but I am interested in seeing whether what the people trialing the product have said is the experience anywhere else or do us jokers downunder just have tin ears.

 

[cgould]

How embarrassing for Omnia

No embarrassment. Simon posted with an unfamiliar handle, none of us knew who he was, and said so. At that point, he came on, and clarified that he was Simon, and at that point we knew he was our dealer. So Goran (working for another dealer) and I said hi. Our familiarity with him after identification should have been your tip-off right there. It turned out, we knew him, and he is on our side. No big deal.

At least he identified himself. He didn't have to do that. He could have hid behind the handle like some other mysterious posters have continued to do in this discussion thread. Funny thing...those mysterious folks (one in particular) have been given a pass!

Funny how that works....

This is why I don't waste time responding to fake people on the boards...

-C

 

[FFoti1]

I know someone who has an 8600 in California. We've been trading emails. It creams a 6EXI.

I'm sure that set up by the right set of ears it can play just fine with an 11.

Now here's an interesting post. How does anyone know if it creams the 6EXi? Others were questioned to show 'proof' about Omnia.11, so where's the proof to this 8600/6EXi claim?

This was not the feedback we received from a recent on-air test in a major market in the Midwest. Their claim was the opposite when comparing the 8600 to Omnia.6EXi. BTW: We (Corny and I) have done this same test in our lab, and we'd rate them about even...Omnia.6EXi and the 8600.

-Frank Foti

 

[littlejohn]

Again we note - who turns the knobs and how much makes more difference than the maker of the knobs. (Assuming we got state-of-the-art knobs)

 

[RadeoEngineer]

Again we note - who turns the knobs and how much makes more difference than the maker of the knobs. (Assuming we got state-of-the-art knobs)

I'm with littlejohn here. (Disclaimer: I retired four years ago and haven't messed with any of the newest stuff.) I've had both O's and with a lot of patience you can make either do what you want them to do. One O likes to do certain things easier than the other O, but they'll both get you there. I find it a little hard to believe anything can blow anthing else out of the water, though there may be some differences readily achieved via the architecture of the device.

 

[wgliradio]

At least he identified himself. He didn't have to do that. He could have hid behind the handle like some other mysterious posters have continued to do in this discussion thread. Funny thing...those mysterious folks (one in particular) have been given a pass!

Funny how that works....

This is why I don't waste time responding to fake people on the boards...

-C

PaulyBoy. Soon as we know who he is, perhaps others will open up.



[/quote]

 

[FFoti1]

PaulyBoy. Soon as we know who he is, perhaps others will open up.

Mike,

You need to come clean about your audio processing commercial activities.

-Frank Foti

 

[rorban]

BTW: We (Corny and I) have done this same test in our lab, and we'd rate them about even...Omnia.6EXi and the 8600.

-Frank Foti

Frank -- It appears that your development team and ours (Greg Ogonowski and I) have different criteria for judging processing. In our opinion, the 8600 and O6 could only be called "even" if one ignores the 8600's source-to-source consistency, low speech distortion, distortion control on difficult music material (particularly in the midrange), low-overshoot peak control from the L/R outputs, and band-limited composite limiting that does not audibly degrade stereo separation when it operates.

Even if one disregards all of that, the two processors produce fundamentally different sonic textures because their topologies are different. One of the main goals in the 8600's design was to preserve the benefits that our customers perceive in the "Optimod sound" while significantly improving transient punch and HF power handling. We worked hard to reduce irritants, and one of the criteria that I used to determine whether the product was ready to release was whether the sound made me want to keep listening -- in other words, whether the processor "gets out of the way of the music." This is something that cannot be expressed by measurements or even evaluated by short-term A/B tests. It is the way that the processor's audio texture interacts with the brain's perception of music (including the brain's expectations of "how music is supposed to sound" based on a lifetime of hearing it) and is affected by subtleties like short-term dynamic range, spectral balance, and distortion spectrum. To us, it requires a quality I like to call "liveliness," which does not appear to completely coincide with minimizing audible nonlinear distortion. Such minimization can "deaden" the audio quality and reduce the listener's emotional engagement with it. We believe that in the 8600, we have created a significantly better balance between loudness, distortion, brightness, punch, and liveliness than in any previous Optimod-FM.

As for processor comparisons, you have one advantage over me right now -- because O11s are not readily available yet, I have not had to chance to compare this product to the 8600. I look forward to it.

Bob Orban

 

[rorban]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm employed by AVC Croatia (and have been so for the last year) which is part of the AVC Group. AVC is an official dealer and representative of Telos, Omnia and Axia products, among others.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

Despite this, Goran's posts have been some of the most professional, useful, and even-handed posts I have seen on this board.

Bob Orban

 

[dannyscott101]

I'll be planning my own test of the 8600 vs. Omnia 11 in the year 2027, when I can get them both off ebay at a price I can afford... (if I'm still on this side of the ground!)

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a small-market mediocre voice-track jock with a processing fetish, who is not an engineer, and likes posting on a board where I probably do not belong!

I equally represent all brands of used and sometimes junky broadcasting equipment!

 

[FFoti1]

Frank -- It appears that your development team and ours (Greg Ogonowski and I) have different criteria for judging processing. In our opinion, the 8600 and O6 could only be called "even" if one ignores the 8600's source-to-source consistency, low speech distortion, distortion control on difficult music material (particularly in the midrange), low-overshoot peak control from the L/R outputs, and band-limited composite limiting that does not audibly degrade stereo separation when it operates.

Even if one disregards all of that, the two processors produce fundamentally different sonic textures because their topologies are different. One of the main goals in the 8600's design was to preserve the benefits that our customers perceive in the "Optimod sound" while significantly improving transient punch and HF power handling. We worked hard to reduce irritants, and one of the criteria that I used to determine whether the product was ready to release was whether the sound made me want to keep listening -- in other words, whether the processor "gets out of the way of the music." This is something that cannot be expressed by measurements or even evaluated by short-term A/B tests. It is the way that the processor's audio texture interacts with the brain's perception of music (including the brain's expectations of "how music is supposed to sound" based on a lifetime of hearing it) and is affected by subtleties like short-term dynamic range, spectral balance, and distortion spectrum. To us, it requires a quality I like to call "liveliness," which does not appear to completely coincide with minimizing audible nonlinear distortion. Such minimization can "deaden" the audio quality and reduce the listener's emotional engagement with it. We believe that in the 8600, we have created a significantly better balance between loudness, distortion, brightness, punch, and liveliness than in any previous Optimod-FM.

As for processor comparisons, you have one advantage over me right now -- because O11s are not readily available yet, I have not had to chance to compare this product to the 8600. I look forward to it.

Bob Orban

Bob,

We echo comments provided by end-users, as well as our own evaluations of Omnia.6EXi vs 8600. Your criticisms of our product border on comical.

We have listened to numerous critical content segments that exhibit processor/clipper induced IMD, and was surprised to hear this problem remains on the 8600. It's also noticeable on Omnia.6EXi, and this is where we spent our time developing for Omnia.11. Customers are speaking out, and their ears tell them the 8600 is about on-par with Omnia.6EXi.

The 8600 does open up the HF, based upon comparisons to older optimod product. But, then again, we've been doing that since the beginning.

I agree with your criteria regarding evaluating the processor listening experience overall.

-Frank Foti

 

[cgould]

At least he identified himself. He didn't have to do that. He could have hid behind the handle like some other mysterious posters have continued to do in this discussion thread. Funny thing...those mysterious folks (one in particular) have been given a pass!

Funny how that works....

This is why I don't waste time responding to fake people on the boards...

-C

PaulyBoy. Soon as we know who he is, perhaps others will open up.

[/quote]

...and I don't respond to "PaulyBoy's" posts either, Mike.

-C