Optimod 8600 or Omnia.11 on air?

[wgliradio]

Mike,

You need to come clean about your audio processing commercial activities.

-Frank Foti

I think people know where I am, it's not a secret. I work for Wheatstone/Vorsis now but have tried to stay out of the fray here. I know there are people on the boards here with ties who like to make outlandish comments on things they may or may not have heard on boxes they may or may not have adjusted properly.

Stupid old saying, get one of each and try them out. But I stand by what I've seen and been able to do over the last few months. Needless to say, being able to work with this stuff in depth in this kind of environment on a daily basis has, in 75-80% of cases, verified what I have believed for a long time about many popular makes and models. I have learned some new things as well.

Those who know me know my work and know I have never pushed a processor I don't believe in. I left CBS Radio for my own reasons and had other offers on the table, some as a broadcast engineer on the station end and some on the equipment side. I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe in the product I knew I was going to work with.

With one exception, I felt the companies I've been with in the past have benefited from my opinions, insight and work. I support the customers needs and decisions. My job is not to push my sound, my job is to help the customer find what fits for their needs and I have the tools to do that.

So now I guess I'm clean, but I'm waiting for others to wash up.

 

[littlejohn]

The broadcast equipment industry is essentially so small and specialized that workers in it - particularly good ones - shuffle from one to another in an almost incestuous manner. Pretty much everyone worked for pretty much everyone one time or another. So the (successful) ideas kind of get spread around. Along the way in the last 50 years among manufacturers the poor ones and a very few of the good ones have fallen by the wayside. The ego level remains about the same in my estimation. The product quality has improved greatly.

 

[oldiesstation]

Amen Brother Littlejohn. This thread made my head hurt.

 

[celar]

This thread made my head hurt.

Haha, but actually this is an AWESOME thread.

It is a high privilege indeed, to be able to witness a live debate between processing titans. I am learning much, and I am just incredibly grateful that you are both willing to engage in a little public sparring for the edification of others.

Hats off to O & O and the other players as well. I know this debate probably saps your energy and tests your confidence, and I just wanted to express my gratitude for layin' it out in public like that.

 

[The F Mister]

Although it might not be that interesting to anyone I think it's only fair to disclose myself as well.
I'm not in the broadcast industry as a day to day job (I work in the IT business) but I'm interested in radio since 14 years old (I'm 26 by now). Started off as DJ but later on became obsessed with processing. I've worked with several local stations in The Netherlands and have played with DSPX's and Omnia's. Never touched an Orban besides a demo here and there but I wouldn't call that "hands-on" like others may... I'm self thought and eager to learn each day.
I've got an DSPXtreme at home (used to have an Omnia One too) I like to fidle with. I met Scott and Goran several times (visited BW in the UK) and I think I'm open-minded enough to be impartial. I have no interest to put one brand above the other. Just know more about the people behind BW than for example Orban or Omnia (I've met Cornelious as well btw) which might give slight personal preference. Mainly because I know what support to expect. Besides all this I am affiliated with radio.nl which is owned by friends of my. We are planning to write about processing and companies 'behind the product'. So if the two O's, Vorsis and others want to boost PR in The Netherlands maybe we can help each other. I know our readers are interested in reading about people like Bob, Frank, Cornelious, Goran and Scott, I think Leif has a fan base as well in the Netherlands.

I stubled on this board a few years back while looking around for hardware processing at home and never left since

 

[stace]

I like to hear Orban has Been working on restoring the punch and emotion to processed audio. Because I think that has been missing since the 8100 and 8200. I love the sound of the 8500 with distortion control turned off. My favorite thing about Orbans is the pristine cold speech
I've worked with Omnias .Fm, 3fmt, and 6 and love their exciting punchy open and musical sound, ability to handle extreeme highs and deep lows but always thought a little less smooth (you can't have everything). I look forward to hearing an 11.
Last I knew, the chief engineers of both major radio networks in New Zealand (RadioWorks and The Radio Network) have chosen Orban for upgrading all processing here so it may be a while before I see an 11, but that Omnia 6fms have been replaced with Flagship Orbans in the major markets and smaller equivalents in the regions is proof Orban is alive and well down under.

@ Foti, even though we all know and respect who you are, your claims about customer feedback and research regarding O6 vs 8600 still mean nothing to me for the same reason your reps in Melborne do not. It's your product. (re: an earlier post about a Californian station)
If people post opinions about which is better it's not up to you to correct them.
I realise now after reading this thread why when opinions are posted here there are such hostile replies. Because most people here are on the inside.

 

[FFoti1]

@ Foti, even though we all know and respect who you are, your claims about customer feedback and research regarding O6 vs 8600 still mean nothing to me for the same reason your reps in Melborne do not. It's your product. (re: an earlier post about a Californian station)
If people post opinions about which is better it's not up to you to correct them.
I realise now after reading this thread why when opinions are posted here there are such hostile replies. Because most people here are on the inside.

@ Stace, I was not correcting anyone. My comment offered feedback from an end-user who has a different view. Nothing more.

-Frank Foti

 

[busterluck]

The ultimate proof of any product is the acceptance of the market place. There must be a reason sales of Omnia products sell more units than Orban these days. One major dealer told me that Orban is on shaky financial grounds and that Bob Orban had to jump in and bail out Optimod. Several years ago I installed a 8500 at a new station and had to BEG for a hard copy of the instruction book from CRL/Orban. Check the sales figures, Omnia outsells Orban by quite a big margin. The markeplace is the proof of acceptance. No instruction book with a $10,000 plus unit, no recommendation for my clients to buy!

 

[chriscollins]

This thread made my head hurt.

Haha, but actually this is an AWESOME thread.

It is a high privilege indeed, to be able to witness a live debate between processing titans. I am learning much, and I am just incredibly grateful that you are both willing to engage in a little public sparring for the edification of others.

Hats off to O & O and the other players as well. I know this debate probably saps your energy and tests your confidence, and I just wanted to express my gratitude for layin' it out in public like that.

Bob Orban and Frank Foti are class acts. They don't hesitate to post or even answer questions. I agree with much of what they said, and on my next processor, I will demo both and a-b them to death for 30 days to decide which one to keep. It is also a testament to both that they encourage the channel to allow us to use their boxes in the real world with the ability to return them.

I do alot of work with Audiovault and I get to talk to some of the people 'in the know'. It's always nice to get the actual answer to your question, whether you want to hear it or not. That is the same thing I appreciate about Frank and Bob.

 

[cgould]

Folks -

I think the thing to not lose sight of in all of this debate is something I've said repeatedly.

There is no right or wrong choice in processing. The right choice is the one that works for you, and enhances your on-air product in the manner you like. It's like buying a car. Everyone has their favorites, based on how it fills a need.

We have our philosophy on how to go about filling these needs, others have theirs. The best way to find out how *your* need is filled is to test drive it yourself.

There are a lot of new things in Omnia.11 that we are very excited about, and after test driving one, I hope you will be as well. I am easily accessible by e-mail, as is Frank, and we will be thrilled to hear your feedback - good or bad. We have taken in all the comments from previous efforts, and have worked hard to turn your feedback into something we feel makes our processing an even stronger brand.

I guess that's the important thing to remember. My personal goals were to raise the bar on what we offered as a company, and worked hard to one-up...make that...THREE-up ourselves on this effort. I've poured a lifetime of personal R&D of audio processing into creating the new dynamics & bass management sections of the Omnia.11 to meet this goal.

Again, I hope that when you have a chance to demo Omnia.11, you'll recognize this effort, and will enjoy it!

I've stayed out of the direct battles in this thread, and felt that before it decays into a total mud slinging session, that I should present my thoughts...



-Cornelius
Omnia.11 co-developer....

 

[BabyDJ]

The ultimate proof of any product is the acceptance of the market place. There must be a reason sales of Omnia products sell more units than Orban these days. One major dealer told me that Orban is on shaky financial grounds and that Bob Orban had to jump in and bail out Optimod. Several years ago I installed a 8500 at a new station and had to BEG for a hard copy of the instruction book from CRL/Orban. Check the sales figures, Omnia outsells Orban by quite a big margin. The markeplace is the proof of acceptance. No instruction book with a $10,000 plus unit, no recommendation for my clients to buy!

Do you have figures on how much Omnia outsells Orban or is this more hearsay?

 

[gtomas]

There is no right or wrong choice in processing. The right choice is the one that works for you, and enhances your on-air product in the manner you like.

We have our philosophy on how to go about filling these needs, others have theirs. The best way to find out how *your* need is filled is to test drive it yourself.

Excellent point, Cornelius. That's what it's all about. Finding the product that works for you best.

And it's up to the manufacturers to offer the product with those qualities that will appeal to most (or at least enough) customers. Ultimately, it's not about the competition - it's about the customers.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[RadeoEngineer]

There is no right or wrong choice in processing. The right choice is the one that works for you, and enhances your on-air product in the manner you like.

We have our philosophy on how to go about filling these needs, others have theirs. The best way to find out how *your* need is filled is to test drive it yourself.

Excellent point, Cornelius. That's what it's all about. Finding the product that works for you best.

And it's up to the manufacturers to offer the product with those qualities that will appeal to most (or at least enough) customers. Ultimately, it's not about the competition - it's about the customers.


And sometimes the local engineer gets a product shipped to him/her that they would not have preferred, and it's up to them to get it to where it works. Like littlejohn says, it's who's turning the knobs.

Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[gtomas]

And sometimes the local engineer gets a product shipped to him/her that they would not have preferred, and it's up to them to get it to where it works. Like littlejohn says, it's who's turning the knobs.

I do agree that the ultimate result will depend on how the processor is adjusted. It takes some time and effort to get to know and understand how the given processor works and to do it right. I don't want to sound elitist, but it also takes a person with the critical hearing who is able to discern the details in the sound. If you don't know what you're doing, it might be best to stick with the factory presets. There are infinitely more possibilities to adjust the processor badly, then there are to make it sound good.

Finally, the station's sound will depend how on how the facility is engineered throughout - from the microphone and the quality of the source material to the transmitter. I guess a lot of stations don't do one or the other right, as there seems to be a lot more badly sounding stations than those which sound good.

If you're not included in the decision making process on what equipment to acquire for the station, well, that's a different kind of problem.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[Shaun920]

The Omnia 11 is on air in Melbourne Australia and has been/is being tested head to head against the 8600 in a number of other stations. The 8600 is an appreciable improvement over the 8500 but the Omnia 11 just sounds so much better than the 8600 it’s amazing. In the AB tests it was like someone was throwing a pillow over the speakers when we switched to the 8600. Don’t get me wrong the 8600 is great but there is something new happening with the Omnia 11 which is more than just tweaking of the 8500 can offer us. Sadly I suspect that anyone who races the 8600 against the Omnia 11 will opt for the Omnia. The good news for 8500 users is that they will be able to get more horsepower out of their existing processor when the upgrade ships, but it won’t beat the 11 head to head.

I know the stations that have the Omnia 11 on air and to be honest from what they had before anything would be a better. I still think Triple M and Fox are still up there with the 8600's

Shaun Stapleton.

 

[mp3RadioGuy]

Check the sales figures, Omnia outsells Orban by quite a big margin. The markeplace is the proof of acceptance. No instruction book with a $10,000 plus unit, no recommendation for my clients to buy!

baloney!

 

[littlejohn]

Ya know, I was gonna check the sales figures and they weren't available. After all, does Macy's tell Gimbel's?

 

[LA_Guy]

This discussion reads like an automobile discussion: What's better, the Audi or the BMW? Oh wait-look-here comes someone from Mercedes and another from Lexus. Everyone says their car is the best, yet only one car can be-right?

Wrong. Each one of these automobiles has its plusses and minuses, each one has the capability to excel and each one offers high performance. What makes one better then the other is COMPLETELY in the eye of its owner. No one is right or wrong-it's just that each person has their own likes and dislikes, hence many autos are available to buy.

It's the same thing with audio processors. Hearing is VERY subjective-what sounds great to me might well sound like crap to you and vice versa. Does that make me right and you wrong?

Of course not.

It simply means that we have different OPINIONS as to what sounds good!

Omnia makes excellent products. So does Orban and Vorsis. So do BW Broadcast and Aphex and Inovonics. I'm sure there are some others I've left out that also sound great, and I'm not even touching the rebuilt Optimods and Texars and XTs and CRLs still being used on the air out there.

Each and every one of these has the ability to make a station sound loud and crisp and great!
Each one can be also set up 1001 different ways-and THAT can make a HUGE difference!
I remember an NAB where Bob had his XT there and Glen Clark had his Prisms there. Each also had the others unit there set up for direct A/B comparison. They both decided to let the other set up their product as an act of fairness. I did an A/B and guess what? They BOTH sounded excellent-in each others booths.

So how does one decide? Lots of ways. Sometimes the decision is made for you-a corporate CE or PD decides and the box just arrives. I had this happen to me with an early 8400 and believed my rebuilt Texars and 8100 sounded better, so I put a DPDT switch on the STL input, fed both raw program and let the PD have his way with the 8400. After 3 weeks he gave up and left my processing on-until the new firmware came-then he was easily able to make the 8400 sound better. Remember, politics (and poor hearing) enters into things too-including audio processing decisions. I had a corporate DoE fly into town, pick up a rental car at the airport, listen to my stations on the way in and proclaim they all sounded like S**T when he got to the studio. I snuck out to his car, reset the radio flat and did nothing to any of the stations-and the next morning he came from his hotel beaming about how GREAT they sounded today. It's amazing what a nights sleep can do to bring your ears back to normal after you fly, isn't it?

Sometimes we rely on what we hear at a show-BAD idea IMHO! You always want to try the unit out at your station.

Sometimes we rely on a recommendation; sometimes we have only so much $$ to spend. There's so many reasons. Sometimes unit A sounds better on rock while unit B sounds better on country. Sometimes the source material makes a difference too. I know of one major market FM station (who will remain unidentified) whose console output audio was muddy as heck-it sounded like they were putting things through a graphic EQ with the top two bands rolled off. I honestly think they were downloading 128 kbps MP3s and playing them on the air. One processor (brand O) very accurately transmitted the muddiness through while another brand (brand V) was much more aggressive and was able to 'un equalize' the muddiness. Would I use such a band aid? No...but in this case the V processor sounded MUCH better on air, though I think that might not have been the case had their raw audio been 'normal'.

I'm sorry for rambling and ranting here and also about the length of this post. I'm simply saying there IS no right and wrong here-it's a very personal decision. What I would advise is that whatever you do and buy, make sure your input audio is ABSOLUTELY pristine, be VERY careful setting the processor up, take your time doing so, and when you have it close, leave it for a few days and see if you still like it. Oh-one more thing-since this IS a personal thing, have as many persons as possible (both in and out of the business) also listen while you set it up and value their opinions as well

Good luck.

 

[The F Mister]

Oh-one more thing-since this IS a personal thing, have as many persons as possible (both in and out of the business) also listen while you set it up and value their opinions as well

.... and have both male and female have a good listen over a longer period of time.