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Orban 8282 (Optimod TV) for FM

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dannyscott101

I'm getting excited to try my latest experiment in low budget (no budget) audio processing upgrades this weekend! After scoring a couple of Optimod-TV units recently (one working, one not) I have dialed in an "8200 sound" that I like. The plan is to put the 8282 in front of the current 2200 that is on air.

Before you grimace at the idea, you should know that I have Uncle Bob's blessing on this (well, sort of...)

The plan is to run the 2200 in 'bypass' mode to only use its stereo generator and preemphasis, letting the 8282 do all the processing, from AGC all the way to final clipping. The 8282 does 75us preemphasis, but would be run in the deemphasized 'flat' mode.

The only problem is that a power outage will cause the 2200 to power back on in the 'operate' mode. This means that I need a good setting in the 2200s CLASSICAL/PROTECT mode that it will default to in case of a power failure. This would mean that at worst there would be a slight loudness loss if the system powers down and back up.

Eventually, I would like to get a separate stereo generator to use with the 8282.

Disclaimer: I am NOT an engineer... Hopefully I have not stated anything above that made that fact obvious. (In fact, I'm not even getting paid for this project- it's just for the old-fashioned love of broadcasting)

Has anyone else tried a setup similar to this, or used a TV unit for FM processing?

By the way, a big thank you to Mr. Orban for your guidance in this process when I e-mailed you last month.
 
I would probably obtain a good used analog FM stereo generator somewhere, before daisy chaining the 8282 with the other unit.

Experimenting is 80% of the fun.

From my previous experiments? I'd just run Breakaway, enjoy the better quality, ease of use, and novelty of running processing on fast PC, instead...and leave more time for play.
 
You should consider the DSPmpX which would be perfect for your application.

http://audio-processor.com/dspmpx-fm/overview

It's a stereo generator that has a safety limiter, oversampled distortion controlled clipping, composite clipping, pilot and sca protection and a multitude of remote control and preset options. It also has a silence detector / audio switcher built in.

It's commonly used to provide STL overshoot protection, standalone stereo generation and can also help you achieve competative loudness. I've had Orban customers use them on the other side of a link from 8500's with really good results. If it's a digital link you can always reduce the load on the 8500's clippers, de-emphasise the outputs, both which will keep the digital link happier and stop it from destroying your audio. The DSPmpX can then makeup the lost clipping and reapply the pre-emphasis as required.

One other option that doesn't cost a great deal more is the DSPXmini-FM SE. It can be set to function in a simiar manner to the DSPmpX by activating the bypass preset. This will remain activated at power resets. Going for the mini gives you the flexability of having a 4+4 audio processor included if you need it sometime in the future of you want to try something different than the 8282's texture.

If you need a demo of either unit let me know.

I forget the important bit- price. I have heard of street prices of $1250 for the DSPmpX being offered by reputable dealers. YMMV depending on your location etc.
 
Sgeirk said:
I would probably obtain a good used analog FM stereo generator somewhere, before daisy chaining the 8282 with the other unit.

Experimenting is 80% of the fun.

From my previous experiments? I'd just run Breakaway, enjoy the better quality, ease of use, and novelty of running processing on fast PC, instead...and leave more time for play.
Click to expand...

I've already grabbed the 'cheap' version of Breakaway to experiment. It sounds really good, and I'd love to try it on air... But I still can't seem to get over the 'box fetish' that goes with processing.

Using a PC to process would somehow seem the same as selling my antique cars and replacing them with an "antique driving simulator" that runs on my PC. It may seem strange, but it's kind of like the sadness of having to give up my turntable when CDs became the norm. There was something about watching the tone arm and stylus gliding on the black vinyl that I knew was MAKING the audio I was listening to!

And no, I don't sit at the transmitter shack staring at the dance of the gain reduction meters all day, but I am fascinated by the ones on the processing in my dining room!
 
dannyscott101 said:
Sgeirk said:
I would probably obtain a good used analog FM stereo generator somewhere, before daisy chaining the 8282 with the other unit.

Experimenting is 80% of the fun.

From my previous experiments? I'd just run Breakaway, enjoy the better quality, ease of use, and novelty of running processing on fast PC, instead...and leave more time for play.
Click to expand...

I've already grabbed the 'cheap' version of Breakaway to experiment. It sounds really good, and I'd love to try it on air... But I still can't seem to get over the 'box fetish' that goes with processing.

Using a PC to process would somehow seem the same as selling my antique cars and replacing them with an "antique driving simulator" that runs on my PC. It may seem strange, but it's kind of like the sadness of having to give up my turntable when CDs became the norm. There was something about watching the tone arm and stylus gliding on the black vinyl that I knew was MAKING the audio I was listening to!

And no, I don't sit at the transmitter shack staring at the dance of the gain reduction meters all day, but I am fascinated by the ones on the processing in my dining room!
Click to expand...
Regarding Breakaway, I understand the 'box fetish', but let me offer this testimony...I've had Station Playlist Pro automation & Breakaway Broadcast running on the same computer (which also does all my email, Internet, Adobe Audition, Word, etc) running into a part 15 transmitter pretty well since Breakaway became available. The radio hasn't stopped playing once (except when I stop it for a reboot or for other reasons) since I set it up. With a proper DC Coupled sound card (in my case, a Marian Trace Alpha), Breakaway is perfect & very ready for prime time. They were hoping to introduce it in a 'box' by the spring NAB show, but I haven't heard if that will still happen or not. That said, I haven't placed it in a 'real' broadcast environment yet, but might consider doing so at a location where the processor would be located at the studio...just in case.
 
There have been a whole slew of Optimod-TV boxes showing up on eBay recently, probably from stations finally clearing out their analog equipment. However, most are actually the "Optimod" branded MTS stereo and SAP generators, not the actual Optimod audio processing units.
 
satech said:
There have been a whole slew of Optimod-TV boxes showing up on eBay recently, probably from stations finally clearing out their analog equipment. However, most are actually the "Optimod" branded MTS stereo and SAP generators, not the actual Optimod audio processing units.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've seen many of those. You need to look at the listings and photos carefully, too! Some people will just list them as an "8182", since the model number prefix is the same for the stereo gen and SAP units. The SAP unit looks a lot like a regular 8182 at a glance.

Unless these are useful for parts to gut for an 8100A, I would think them to be nothing more than designer boat anchors.
 
Okay, here's a knucklehead question along the lines of this thread and using the 8182 or 8282 as fm processors. Perhaps Bob can answer this one.

If I were to place the "proof/operate" switch on card 5 into proof, and then leave everything else as is, and feed the output of another processor into the 8100a... what's still active? Assuming that I have a properly limited and clipped signal coming in, what's the 8100a doing to it? Will it only apply 75us and use the HF limiters and safety clip (or pass the signal on to card 0, as is installed in this particular one)? Or is there more going on than that? Can I run a flat multi-band processor into it that way, get stereo, preemphasis and limiting to 75khz deviation?
 
We have one. The firm that sold it to us bought an FM stereo gen card for it to replace the TV card, and it works fine. Sounds as good as any other 8200.
 
listner1 said:
We have one. The firm that sold it to us bought an FM stereo gen card for it to replace the TV card, and it works fine. Sounds as good as any other 8200.
Click to expand...

My talks with a service guy at Orban also revealed that 8200 firmware updates will install seamlessly into the 8282. (version 3.0 was the last, I believe)

WNTI (Nick, is that you?...)

Even if you bypassed card 5, can you completely bypass the final stages of limiting and clipping in the 8100A? (Putting the 'limit' switch also in 'proof' mode?) I don't know. If I could do this, I might favor running an 8100 as a stereo gen after this box, provided it could be quickly put back to 'full service' in the event of a failure in the 8282.

My original plan was to put another Orban processor like a DAB 6200 in front of the 2200. I'm quite sure this would require 'active' use of the 2200 to provide proper HF limiting. When I came across the 8282 the idea seemed just as good, but when I realized the 8282 processes with preemphasis, the bypass idea seemed better.

Ideally, I suppose it would be best if the 8282 could process only through the multiband stage and allow the 2200 to just do the final clipping and such, but God never meant for these two boxes to work together like this...

Wish me luck. I'll post the results.
 
dannyscott101 said:
listner1 said:
We have one. The firm that sold it to us bought an FM stereo gen card for it to replace the TV card, and it works fine. Sounds as good as any other 8200.
Click to expand...

My talks with a service guy at Orban also revealed that 8200 firmware updates will install seamlessly into the 8282. (version 3.0 was the last, I believe)

WNTI (Nick, is that you?...)

Even if you bypassed card 5, can you completely bypass the final stages of limiting and clipping in the 8100A? (Putting the 'limit' switch also in 'proof' mode?) I don't know. If I could do this, I might favor running an 8100 as a stereo gen after this box, provided it could be quickly put back to 'full service' in the event of a failure in the 8282.

My original plan was to put another Orban processor like a DAB 6200 in front of the 2200. I'm quite sure this would require 'active' use of the 2200 to provide proper HF limiting. When I came across the 8282 the idea seemed just as good, but when I realized the 8282 processes with preemphasis, the bypass idea seemed better.

Ideally, I suppose it would be best if the 8282 could process only through the multiband stage and allow the 2200 to just do the final clipping and such, but God never meant for these two boxes to work together like this...

Wish me luck. I'll post the results.
Click to expand...

I have a TV8282 running the FM8200 v3.0 firmware (available for sale). I can confirm it's fully compatible (but it's impossible to use the PC remote) and v3.0 is a major upgrade adding a phase rotator and a separate output control for each band. To use a 8100 as stereo encoder only (without any processing), you should use the test jacks (in TEST mode). Not sure how to do the same with a 2200...
 
The 8282 is on the air!

It was a frustrating experience for a while, but it is up and running...

My first thought of running the 2200 in 'bypass' or 'classical/protect' was a failure. Running just the 8282 with fairly aggressive settings and NO processing in the 2200 resulted in VERY LOW sounding modulation, even with the clipping settings fairly high. The sound remained quite clean, but dropped off the dial even with the modulation meter pounding its legal limits!

The end result is that I'm using processing in BOTH boxes! It was my last ditch effort before hanging it up after a couple of cold hours at the stick. When I first tried, I expected to have unacceptable sound quality, but I'm very surprised at how clean it is! Of course I reduced all the clipping settings in the 8282 to their minimums.

In the end, the 8282 is still doing most of the processing, with about 5db of total gain reduction in the 2200. I'm able to run the clipping settings a bit higher in the the 2200 than when it's 'naked'.

The problem?... The cascading digital on-air delay is quite noticeable! Since I was the weekend voice track guy yesterday anyway, I was able to run to the studio and do a live yap to test it. After hearing the 'chorus effect', I informed everyone that they would probably want to use the board monitor for their cans. I'm sure there will be some more tweaking, but for now it's a low-budget success!
 
WNTIRadio said:
Okay, here's a knucklehead question along the lines of this thread and using the 8182 or 8282 as fm processors. Perhaps Bob can answer this one.

If I were to place the "proof/operate" switch on card 5 into proof, and then leave everything else as is, and feed the output of another processor into the 8100a... what's still active? Assuming that I have a properly limited and clipped signal coming in, what's the 8100a doing to it? Will it only apply 75us and use the HF limiters and safety clip (or pass the signal on to card 0, as is installed in this particular one)? Or is there more going on than that? Can I run a flat multi-band processor into it that way, get stereo, preemphasis and limiting to 75khz deviation?
Click to expand...

The Compressor Proof switch defeats the two-band compressor. The Limiter Proof switch defeats the HF limiters and all clipping. Neither switch defeats preemphasis.

If you have a properly limited and clipped signal coming into the 8100 and you put both switches in Proof, you will have overshoots due to any phase response differences between the deemphasis following your pre-processor and the 8100's preemphasis.

It should be possible to pre-process ahead of the 8100 by not doing any clipping in the pre-processor, setting the Compressor Proof switch to Proof, and leaving the 8100's Limiter Proof switch in Operate mode, which uses the 8100's HF limiter and clippers. These work as an integrated system. However, the XT2 is a better choice because it is deeply interleaved with the 8100's circuitry and exploits the 8100's distortion cancelling filters to implements multiband distortion cancellation.

Bob Orban
 
The second day of running the 'dual processor', and all the on-air staff seems to like the sound. I'm still tweaking the 'BRILLIANCE' control on the 8282, trying to balance the trade off between overall brightness and high-frequency grunge.

Our format is now a lot of CHR/Hot AC currents, which nearly ALL suffer from hypercompression grunge, but we also play a fair number of 80s and 90s songs, so it's a delicate balance. At any rate, I feel that we have a cleaner sound than some of our competition that I know to be running Omnias. Not a bashing debate,... I just don't like the way these particular stations sound.

Strangely, I was running the BASS COUPLING on the 2200 at "0" (fully independent) yesterday. Today, I adjusted it back to 50%, thinking it would preserve more of the 8282s bass response all the way through, but I found the opposite to be the case. I'm now going to drive up to the scary and dark transmitter site to adjust it back... Hopefully I won't encounter any strange wildlife.

I know this still seems like a strange and crazy way to be processing, but I really do like the sound. If I heard this sound on the air without knowing what it was, I would never guess it to be TWO Orban processors daisy-chained. If I can get a decent aircheck, I will post it here.

And truly, a big thanks to Bob Orban for taking the time to answer all of my questions, and lending me great support... even for REALLY OLD, REALLY USED equipment!
 
Thank you Bob! That's exactly the answer I needed... and kind of figured that was what was going on, but there's nothing like hearing from the guy who designed the thing! That's why this board is so invaluable, you get answers from Bob, Frank, Cornelius, Goran, etc. And if I left anyone out of the list, you too!!

Just want to use the 8100a for final HF limiting and clipping with stereo gen!

As for the 8282 & the 2200, I'd love to hear what that sounds like! Are you running the 8282 flat? (And yes, it's Nick)
 
Yes, the 8282 is flat. (which is actually deemphasis from 75us, so the highs are being limited) It would need to be flat, since the 2200s output would always have preemphasis, even in bypass.

I just made it back from the transmitter alive. No critters, but tonight's expected snowfall is beginning to accumulate, and I almost got the stupid minivan stuck there by trying to park too close to the door. It's a little shack out behind the bigger building that serves one of the local TV stations (my former employer)

I returned the bass coupling to "0", and brought down the brilliance just a notch. It absolutely sounds better this way.

I'm glad this stuff is so much fun for me... It keeps me from having time to get in real trouble. (You know, like Tiger Woods or Eliot Spitzer)

Nice to read your words, Nick. Now I might need to figure out one of those 'talent processors' to deal with the studio delay issue, like the one you were building when you bought either my Orban 464A or my Aphex Dominator from ebay!
 
rorban said:
It should be possible to pre-process ahead of the 8100 by not doing any clipping in the pre-processor, setting the Compressor Proof switch to Proof, and leaving the 8100's Limiter Proof switch in Operate mode, which uses the 8100's HF limiter and clippers. These work as an integrated system. However, the XT2 is a better choice because it is deeply interleaved with the 8100's circuitry and exploits the 8100's distortion cancelling filters to implements multiband distortion cancellation.

Bob Orban
Click to expand...

"Double clipping" was my biggest concern running two processors together, since I really can't totally defeat the clipping in the 8282. Maybe these clippers are not as hard as the ones in the 8200 firmware?... If so, that also would explain why I could not get competitive loudness when trying to do all the processing on the 8282.
 
I think it's great to see some experimentation with processor configurations. It seemed I have met many with the mindset that a certain set of processors should always be used in a similar configuration and connection order to achieve a particular sound.

I look forward to hearing more about these experiments. It would be nice if perhaps you can provide some sample audio for us to critique.
 
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