Out-of-Market Station Carriage Question

[Joey1986]

I know that satellite providers cannot carry local channels from outside of a subscriber's home market (e.g. no Los Angeles stations for subscribers in the Santa Barbara-Santa Maria-San Luis Obispo market). Then why is it that cable providers can pipe in channels from neighboring markets? In the above example, in Santa Barbara, Cox Communications carries the following L.A. stations: KTLA channel 5 (CW), KCAL channel 9 (Independent), KCOP channel 13 (MyNetworkTV), and KCET channel 28 (PBS).

Time Warner in Palm Springs carries L.A. stations in addition to the Palm Springs ones. They are KNBC channel 4 (NBC), KABC channel 7 (ABC), KCET channel 28 and KVCR channel 24 (both PBS, on cable channels 8 and 9, respectively), and KCAL (on cable channel 16, since cable channel 9 is already taken, as noted above).

 

[LKellerIII]

I know that satellite providers cannot carry local channels from outside of a subscriber's home market (e.g. no Los Angeles stations for subscribers in the Santa Barbara-Santa Maria-San Luis Obispo market). Then why is it that cable providers can pipe in channels from neighboring markets? In the above example, in Santa Barbara, Cox Communications carries the following L.A. stations: KTLA channel 5 (CW), KCAL channel 9 (Independent), KCOP channel 13 (MyNetworkTV), and KCET channel 28 (PBS).

Time Warner in Palm Springs carries L.A. stations in addition to the Palm Springs ones. They are KNBC channel 4 (NBC), KABC channel 7 (ABC), KCET channel 28 and KVCR channel 24 (both PBS, on cable channels 8 and 9, respectively), and KCAL (on cable channel 16, since cable channel 9 is already taken, as noted above).

My guess is that they can carry out of market stations that are not competing.

I recall that in the late 70s, there seemed to be a transition period. In the SF Bay Area, Viacom Cable carried Sacramento stations - even the network affiliates. During the time-slots the Sacto stations were carrying network programming, Viacom was required to run the feed from the local SF affiliate. So - for example, the cable position for KCRA 3 (NBC Sacto) would run the network feed from KRON in San Francisco. Then, when the stations switched back to local programming, Viacom would flip the switch back to KCRA programming.

You could tell because there would often be a delay of a few seconds. If you had KCRA tuned in at exactly 11:00 PM, you would see a few seconds of the KRON anchor teasing the upcoming NewsCenter 4, then it would flip suddenly to KCRA's local news.

After a few years, the out-of-town stations were dropped entirely.

 

[BRNout]

There are prescribed rules for the carriage of out-of-market stations. One of the provisions, and we need someone who is well-versed in this to cite the exact rule, has to do with 'significantly viewed' status. In other words, if enough viewers located a given county on the fringe of a market - or in a small market somewhere - have historically tuned to local stations located in another nearby market, those stations can claim 'significantly viewed' status.

The rules for deciding this are byzantine to say the least. For example, portions of the Boston DMA can receive over the air signals from Providence stations better than those from Boston; yet no Providence stations are offered on cable in some of those areas (selected Providence stations are offered in others). I'd imagine that people in Pawtucket, RI and Woonsocket, RI historically watched Boston TV because those signals would come in well via antenna; yet none of the Boston stations (save PBS station WGBH) are offered in those places on cable. However, viewers on Cape Cod in the Boston DMA are offered most of the Providence market stations on cable.

In CT, there is a cable system south of Hartford (Middletown) which offers one of the network signals from Springfield, MA; yet the system north of it (and much nearer to Springfield) dropped those feeds decades ago. Viewers in Racine and Kenosha, Wisconsin are offered most Chicago signals despite being in the Milwaukee DMA; yet viewers on the IL side of the border are offered only Chicago market signals and 1 PBS from Milwaukee.

And, cable systems seem to freely drop previously offered out of market stations whenever they choose. In spite of the fact that it pisses their subscribers off.

To be honest, it's somewhat confusing.

 

[mleach]

I know that satellite providers cannot carry local channels from outside of a subscriber's home market

Some years back I believe there was some agreement between Dish Network and Direct TV to begin to offer "significantly viewed" out of market stations if the local cable company offers them but its been a very long time since I have heard about it.

I do remember when Dish Network would offer local Denver, Chicago, NYC, LA or Atlanta ( Direct TV with LA & NYC ) to those who "qualify". Boy did that create drama !! I had a friend who at one point "qualified" for KNBC on Direct TV in West Virginia. Then one day he was bragging to a buddy of his about getting KNBC only to have the buddy call up Direct TV requesting KNBC. Direct TV said NO to him. Then the buddy says"...well my friend at 123 Main Street gets KNBC..and I can't..this sucks..you go to hell?" Direct TV pulled the plug on my friend getting KNBC. And from what I heard from those who work at both satellite providers..this sort of thing was actually a big problem for them between people getting pissed off that they can't get out of market TV and/or those who "report" those who for one reason or another did.

 

[dave73]

From my understanding, there are some cable systems in Porter & LaPorte Counties of Indiana who carry both Chicago & South Bend stations on their cable lineup. I heard that cable systems can carry any TV station as part of the must carry ruling that can be received over the air. Also, Racine & Kenosha Counties of Wisconsin also carry most Chicago stations. Since Racine & Kenosha Counties are part of the Milwaukee market, and not Chicago, they can't carry any Chicago station if a station won't allow it. I know for Racine, Time Warner carrys the Chicago version of WGN-TV, and not WGN America. I went & looked at both Time Warner Cable for Racine & Kenosha Counties of Wisconsin, and they carry both Chicago & Milwaukee stations. Also, Comcast Cable of Michigan City Indiana (LaPorte County) carries both Chicago & South Bend (full power stations only for South Bend), and Comcast Valparaiso & Portage (Porter County Indiana) only carry WNDU & WSBT for South Bend stations, along with all Chicago full power stations.

Cable companies aren't required to carry any station that's within the market if it can't be received over the air. For my local Comcast service area, they aren't required to carry WWTO LaSalle, IL, since the signal doesn't reach NW Indiana, even though it's part of the Chicago market. Just like my local TV station, WYIN-DT isn't required to be carried by cable companies in the northern suburbs of Chicago if it can't be received over the air. That would definitely be Lake & McHenry Counties of Illinois. As for satellite, the stations they carry can only be for the Neilson market. So Dish Network & DirecTV carry both WYIN-DT & WWTO for all of Chicagoland to see, even if those stations don't broadcast to the entire market.

What I mentioned are a few examples.

 

[mrfish67]

I know that satellite providers cannot carry local channels from outside of a subscriber's home market (e.g. no Los Angeles stations for subscribers in the Santa Barbara-Santa Maria-San Luis Obispo market). Then why is it that cable providers can pipe in channels from neighboring markets? In the above example, in Santa Barbara, Cox Communications carries the following L.A. stations: KTLA channel 5 (CW), KCAL channel 9 (Independent), KCOP channel 13 (MyNetworkTV), and KCET channel 28 (PBS).

Time Warner in Palm Springs carries L.A. stations in addition to the Palm Springs ones. They are KNBC channel 4 (NBC), KABC channel 7 (ABC), KCET channel 28 and KVCR channel 24 (both PBS, on cable channels 8 and 9, respectively), and KCAL (on cable channel 16, since cable channel 9 is already taken, as noted above).

As pointed out in other posts, those channels often disappear during network programming times, or during times in which a station must be blacked out due to SyndEx. In fact, the LA channels are probably more often NOT seen during most of the day.

It is frustrating, but the laws differ between satellite and cable providers.

 

[mrfish67]

I do recall in Terre Haute, Indiana in the late 1980s that American Cablevision began carrying the Indianapolis network stations and did NOT black any of them out. This was after years of not having done so, in spite of a fair amount of network program pre-emptions in Terre Haute.

It was nice to have the Indy stations, because two of the three Terre Haute stations broadcast in monaural sound back then, so stereo sound from Indianapolis was welcome.

The Indy stations disappeared throughout the 1990s, although as recently as a year or so ago, Terre Haute still got WXIN (Fox from Indianapolis). It was probably often blacked out, though.

The Indy stations were probably there without blackouts because the new SyndEx law hadn't taken effect. Plus, Indianapolis used to delay prime time until 8 p.m. even during the summer. (Most of Indiana did not observe Daylight Saving Time back then.) I don't know if the delays would have counted as "network duplication" since the Indy stations weren't showing programs at the same time.

 

[BRNout]

Cable companies aren't required to carry any station that's within the market if it can't be received over the air. For my local Comcast service area, they aren't required to carry WWTO LaSalle, IL, since the signal doesn't reach NW Indiana, even though it's part of the Chicago market. Just like my local TV station, WYIN-DT isn't required to be carried by cable companies in the northern suburbs of Chicago if it can't be received over the air. That would definitely be Lake & McHenry Counties of Illinois. As for satellite, the stations they carry can only be for the Neilson market. So Dish Network & DirecTV carry both WYIN-DT & WWTO for all of Chicagoland to see, even if those stations don't broadcast to the entire market.

From the little I know of the "must carry" rule, any full-powered commercial station within a market can petition for must carry status on cable systems within their market. There are provisions in there having to do with reception, but those have more to do with the station's ability to get a signal to the cable system's headend. Your comment about WYIN is not totally correct, for example, as I live in Lake County and do get WYIN on cable. Another example is WNDS Derry, NH - which ended up becoming Boston's My affiliate. They have must carry status throughout the market except for SE Mass, where they are not able to provide a signal to the cable system (because they are too distant). However, if they could pipe one in via fiber link, they could petition to be carried even on Cape Cod. Derry is in Rockingham County, NH in the northern end of the sprawling Boston DMA - about 50 miles north of Boston. They also get carriage on cable systems in most of NH (even outside of the market) and on certain systems in SE Vermont. That has more to do with proximity and being 'significantly viewed'.

That's my impression of this. However, we'll ultimately need an expert like Scott Fybush to act as referee and to explain all the ins and outs of these rules. (hello? Scott? are you here?)

 

[Toledo Eleven]

The cable system in Toledo, Ohio has always carried several stations out of Detroit (channels 2, 4, 7 and 50 as well as channel 9 out of Windsor, Ontario). They only black-out the NBC shows on channel 4 (unless the Toledo station doesn't carry an NBC show for some reason). We can get Fox and ABC shows on two channels anytime, though. I believe they receive the stations over-the-air because before they were digital they didn't have as good a picture as the locals (even now that they are digital the signal occasionally disappears). Most of the local stations are carried on channels 6-13 and the stations to the north are carried on channels 50-59 (but so is a low-power Toledo channel). I believe they originally carried these channels because anyone in Toledo could get at least some of them with an outdoor antenna and when the cable system first started most of the channels on it were from Toledo and Detroit. At one time they dropped the CBC channel out of Windsor, but brought it back when people complained. I believe that the Windsor channel is still analog.

 

[Ultimajock]

From my understanding, there are some cable systems in Porter & LaPorte Counties of Indiana who carry both Chicago & South Bend stations on their cable lineup. I heard that cable systems can carry any TV station as part of the must carry ruling that can be received over the air. Also, Racine & Kenosha Counties of Wisconsin also carry most Chicago stations. Since Racine & Kenosha Counties are part of the Milwaukee market, and not Chicago, they can't carry any Chicago station if a station won't allow it. I know for Racine, Time Warner carrys the Chicago version of WGN-TV, and not WGN America. I went & looked at both Time Warner Cable for Racine & Kenosha Counties of Wisconsin, and they carry both Chicago & Milwaukee stations.

...actually, for many years Kenosha County was considered part of the Chicago ADI by Neilsen. That may have changed in more recent years. But in the mid-'60s, if you subscribed to TV Guide from a Kenosha address, you'd get the Chicago/Rockford/South Bend edition in the mail, while the Chicago/Milwaukee/Madison/Rockford edition would be at the Piggly Wiggly...

 

[landtuna]

Some years back I believe there was some agreement between Dish Network and Direct TV to begin to offer "significantly viewed" out of market stations if the local cable company offers them but its been a very long time since I have heard about it. <snip>

I'm not an expert on this subject but do remember that several "national" stations (the Denver Six as I recall were one of them) could be received if the viewer was in a location where they could not receive network OTA. This was the original situation when The Denver Six were being broadcast on C-band satellite. I believe that was grandfathered into DirecTV and DISH for awhile but don't know if it still exists.

 

[mleach]

Some years back I believe there was some agreement between Dish Network and Direct TV to begin to offer "significantly viewed" out of market stations if the local cable company offers them but its been a very long time since I have heard about it. <snip>

I'm not an expert on this subject but do remember that several "national" stations (the Denver Six as I recall were one of them) could be received if the viewer was in a location where they could not receive network OTA. This was the original situation when The Denver Six were being broadcast on C-band satellite. I believe that was grandfathered into DirecTV and DISH for awhile but don't know if it still exists.

I remember the "Denver 6" channels that were available on C-Band but I am pretty sure back in those days anyone could had got them as long as they were willing to pay for it. If there were rules in place to prevent those who live close to a TV station from getting Denver 6, it was clear for the most part that wasn't enforced as I had an uncle who lived in Bridgeport, WV back in 1993 and he was able to get to the entire service even though he lived only a few miles from WDTV CBS channel 5. And on top of that for a time ( 1992 ) the Martinsburg, WV Journal newspaper actually provided listings for the Denver stations alongside those from nearby Baltimore and Washington despite the fact that most viewers in the area can pick up quite easily the signals from those cities but despite that there were no shortage of local Martinsburg viewers of Denver TV. In another thread the topic of OJ Simpson's infamous chase was brought up. I was at a Martinsburg-Inwwod bar when that happened. The bar was showing coverage from Denver's KMGH even though the signals from both DC's WUSA and Baltimore's WBAL ( both CBS as was KMGH at the time ) were clear enough to be picked up at the bar.

 

[MarcB]

COX Cable which serves Cheshire, Southington, and Meriden Connecticut carries WPIX 11 out of NYC on Channel 22. (They just recently moved it from Channel 23). Up until a few years ago they were carrying WNBC 4 out of NYC on Channel 13, but some people said it was illegal for COX to carry the CTN the Connecticut Government Channel on Digital Cable so they moved it down to basic and thus WNBC was dropped to make room for CTN.

My COMCAST system in Bristol carries WGBY 57 PBS out of Springfield, Mass as the only out of market channel on its lineup, tho I heard cable companies have to carry 2 PBS stations.

U-Verse the cable service run by phone giant AT&T does not have seperate line-ups in different parts of the states thus in addition to the local CT Channels they also include WCBS, WNBC, WNJU, WNJN, and a couple other NYC stations. The only oddity here I see is they offer WNJU as the only Telemundo service and not the Hartford based WRDM-LP 50. Most cable companies in Central CT offer WRDM-LP.

My parents live in Southington and had DirecTV from May 08 until January 09. In addition to the local Hartford stations (not including ION WHPX/26 or Telemundo WRDM-LP) they also got WCBS, WNBC, and WNYW. (Tho they weren't on 2, 4, and 5. They were somewhere in the 300s, where viewrs who can't get locals would recieve them).

Where I used to live my landlord subscribed to DISH Network. No out of market channels were available. Local ION Station WHPX/26 was not carried nor was Telemundo WRDM-LP. What they did carry, which was an amazing feat since they aren't on cable anywhere was Azteca America WHCT-LP 38, but Dish Picked it up over the air. I rememeber on humid days seeing WSBK bleed into the signal. WHCT-LP, run on the cheap had problems picking of the Azteca Feed and the picture would just roll or jump and be unwatchable. But it wasn't because DISH picked them up OTA it was a problem with WHCT-LP's equipment because what few local commercial were on the station came in just fine. It was always the Azteca Programs that they had problems with.

 

[fybush]

That's my impression of this. However, we'll ultimately need an expert like Scott Fybush to act as referee and to explain all the ins and outs of these rules. (hello? Scott? are you here?)

You rang? Emoticon still broken for Firefox users with no apparent fix in sight

You've actually done a pretty good job of summarizing the rules, as I understand them. Here are the key points:

Cable systems have to carry every full-power station in their DMA - except when they don't, either because one station is a satellite of another (e.g. WFUT/WFTY in the New York market), or because the station chooses to negotiate for retransmission consent and can't reach a deal, or because the station is unable to deliver a satisfactory signal to the cable system's headend. In some cases, when a distant (but in-DMA) station tries to get carriage on a system in a distant part of the market, the cable company will petition the FCC to redefine that specific station's market to exclude the remote area (e.g. WRNN or WTBY in Monmouth County, NJ).

Cable systems can't carry out-of-DMA signals - except when they can, either because they've historically carried the signal, before the current rules took effect, or because the out-of-DMA signal has been designated as "significantly viewed", a complex process that involves analyzing Nielsen's reporting of viewership in the community in question. In the original poster's question, the LA signals on cable in Santa Barbara and Palm Springs have a historical pattern of carriage - and today they're syndex'ed to protect local affiliates. If there's no local affiliate (e.g. Palm Springs before CBS came to KPSP-LP), all bets are pretty much off.

The rules were very different in the early 80s, back when we got most of the Buffalo and Syracuse stations on cable here in Rochester, and when San Diego got LA, and so on. Those days are long gone.

 

[ansky212]

U-Verse the cable service run by phone giant AT&T does not have seperate line-ups in different parts of the states thus in addition to the local CT Channels they also include WCBS, WNBC, WNJU, WNJN, and a couple other NYC stations. The only oddity here I see is they offer WNJU as the only Telemundo service and not the Hartford based WRDM-LP 50. Most cable companies in Central CT offer WRDM-LP.

I know someone in Bristol that has AT&T. I was surprised to see WNBC on their channel lineup, so when I actually tuned to WNBC I saw an error message that the programming was not available. So I'm wondering if they block it in certain areas.

 

[dustintv]

I have an example of un-syndexing!

In Lebanon PA the Comcast system previously Time Warner and Lebanon Valley Cable carries the Harrisburg/Lancaster/York/Lebanon stations along with WPVI, KYW, WPHL, and WPSG. For years WPVI and KYW would be blocked except for news and sometimes when they weren't airing the same programming WHP and WHTM were. WPVI actually shared the channel with C-SPAN2, so you could be watching Senate sub-committee hearings and then suddenly hear the Action News theme.

But as of July 2009 this was no longer the case, both WPVI and KYW are no longer blocked at all. So maybe some cable operations are starting to relax on the syndex rules?

 

[kenrayc]

With satellite, if your OTA signal is blocked by a mountain, you can get The San Francisco and New York main 4 networks on Dish and LA and NY on Directv, even if you have your locals on satellite. right up the road on 180 east of Fresno, Everybody that has Satellite in Dunlap, Swuaw Valley, Badger, and many other areas has all 3 markets and the Fresno market. On DISH KWGN Denver, KTLA 5 LA, WPIX and WWOR NY, and Boston station 38 can't think of call letters right of hand a former UPN affiliate are available in many areas I had them when I had DISH and I live In Fresno and I know people who live in Santa Barbara ,Santa Maria, and San luis Obispo Market who are able to get these stations on DISH. DISH calls it the Super Station package for $ 6 a month.

 

[searadiofreak]

I've always been fascinated by this subject. In the 1980's you could view all of San Francisco's affiliates as far north as Medford, OR, even though Medford had their own affiliates.

Even today, you can view KSL out of Salt Lake City in Pocatello/Idaho Falls, Idaho, again despite four network affiliates in the Idaho market. Why just KSL, and not the other SLC stations? My guess is because KSL is widely known as the "LDS station". Which begs the question, where does religion enter into this? My conclusion is there are a lot of loose rules about this, and they are interpreted in many different ways.

Cable companies carrying their local affiliates may be the "civil" thing to do, but these affiliates are not necessarilly the ones viewers want to watch, especially when it comes to local news and sports. Perhaps a day will come when there will be more options for cable customers. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[landtuna]

I remember the "Denver 6" channels that were available on C-Band but I am pretty sure back in those days anyone could had got them as long as they were willing to pay for it. If there were rules in place to prevent those who live close to a TV station from getting Denver 6, it was clear for the most part that wasn't enforced ...

IIRC a potential subscriber had to submit an affidavit to the service provider saying they had no watchable signal. Obviously there was little, if any, follow up to see if these affidavits were, in fact, true. Since C-band was largely a rural-oriented service I suspect a very large number were true - but I don't remember seeing any "C-band police".

 

[MarcB]

I know someone in Bristol that has AT&T. I was surprised to see WNBC on their channel lineup, so when I actually tuned to WNBC I saw an error message that the programming was not available. So I'm wondering if they block it in certain areas.

Apparently things have changed. I just checked the lineup online and it looks like the only NYC channels carried are WNET and WNJN. Also U-Verse isn't available where I live which stinks because Comcast just went up over $40 for cable and internet because my 6 month intro rate expired.