Out-of-Market Station Carriage Question

[dave73]

My sister lives in Lafayette Indiana, and that's an NRTC market, with just WLFI RF 11 (PSIP 18). So Comcast worked something out with all Indianapolis TV stations & WTTW Chicago to carry all their station on their cable system. Comcast Lafayette has 2 CBS station: WLFI Lafayette & WISH Indianapolis. As for the WTTV/WTTK simulcast; Comcast carries WTTK. As for Satellite; they aren't allowed to carry Indianapolis stations to Lafayette, since they're their own market, and to my knowledge, don't carry WLFI on their service. Also, I last remember that for Lafayette Indiana, that satellite can't allow people to get New York & Los Angeles for DirecTV users, since there is Grade A coverage with WLFI & Grade B coverage for most Indianapolis stations with over the air antennas. I don't know how true this still holds today. I know this was the case before I cancelled my service with DirecTV in 2002 for money reasons. However when I had DirecTV, I only got the 4 networks from Chicago, since that's my market, and that was extra. So I relied on the outdoor antenna for the other stations, and eventually cancelled the local channel subscription, before cancelling my service completely. My DirecTV box is now obsolete, since it's one of the earliest models, and wouldn't get all the Chicago stations.

 

[DToTheJ]

The Time Warner Cable system in Orange County, NY, carries all of the New York City locals, plus WYOU, the CBS affiliate in Scranton, PA (which axed its news operations earlier this year). None of the other Scranton locals on this system, although perhaps at one point in the past WNEP and/or WBRE were carried.

 

[BRNout]

I've always been fascinated by this subject. In the 1980's you could view all of San Francisco's affiliates as far north as Medford, OR, even though Medford had their own affiliates.

Even today, you can view KSL out of Salt Lake City in Pocatello/Idaho Falls, Idaho, again despite four network affiliates in the Idaho market. Why just KSL, and not the other SLC stations? My guess is because KSL is widely known as the "LDS station". Which begs the question, where does religion enter into this? My conclusion is there are a lot of loose rules about this, and they are interpreted in many different ways.

Cable companies carrying their local affiliates may be the "civil" thing to do, but these affiliates are not necessarilly the ones viewers want to watch, especially when it comes to local news and sports. Perhaps a day will come when there will be more options for cable customers. But I'm not holding my breath.

That one is cultural. When I worked at the ABC affiliate in Salt Lake, we were carried throughout eastern Idaho on cable - even in the likes of Idaho Falls, Twin Falls and Rexburg. Since then (early 90s) things have changed and most Salt Lake stations have been dropped in the bigger cities in eastern Idaho that are outside of the Salt Lake DMA.

However, KSL is different. Because of the high percentage of cable subscribers in eastern Idaho who are LDS, any cable system which drops KSL does so at their own peril. Why? Because KSL "is" the LDS channel, carrying General Conference live twice per year and basically being the news mouthpiece of the LDS Church. Of course it would be quite different if these systems never carried KSL - then they'd just pick up the BYU channel and call it good.

However, there is the concept of "grandfathering" that Scott Fybush explained so well above (thanks Scott) - and KSL is grandfathered in these areas. Now, the NBC station in the market, KPVI, could petition to have KSL stricken from cable systems in their market too. But, again, given the cultural interests I've listed above, they would do so at their own peril. LDS church members form a very well organized group and in a market which is probably 85% LDS (as Idaho Falls/Pocatello is), ticking them off is a very bad PR move.

 

[mjlarochelle]

With regards to the South Bend market, Comcast subscribers in Benton Harbor, Michigan receive no less than three CBS affiliates:

CBS - WBBM/2 Chicago, WWMT/3 Kalamazoo, WSBT/22 South Bend
NBC - WMAQ/5 Chicago, WNDU/16 South Bend
ABC - WLS/7 Chicago, WBND-LP/57 South Bend
FOX - WSJV/28 Elkhart/South Bend
PBS - WNIT/34 South Bend
CW - WCWW-LP/25 South Bend
Others - WHME/46 South Bend

Most likely the Chicago stations and WWMT were grandfathered in because they were VHF stations in an all-UHF market, which probably got a lot more viewership historically than the South Bend stations on UHF. WWMT, of course, is also the only station actually based in Michigan on that list, which likely is an added reason for it being significantly viewed.

Briarwood Cable in Benton Harbor only offers the South Bend stations, except for WCWW. Instead they get WWMB from Florence/Myrtle Beach. Parish Communications, also in Benton Harbor, offers WXMI from Grand Rapids instead of WSJV for FOX, but like Briarwood they do not offer any Chicago stations.

All three systems offer WGN America, not WGN-TV. None of these three systems seem to offer MyNetworkTV.

 

[searadiofreak]

I've always been fascinated by this subject. In the 1980's you could view all of San Francisco's affiliates as far north as Medford, OR, even though Medford had their own affiliates.

Even today, you can view KSL out of Salt Lake City in Pocatello/Idaho Falls, Idaho, again despite four network affiliates in the Idaho market. Why just KSL, and not the other SLC stations? My guess is because KSL is widely known as the "LDS station". Which begs the question, where does religion enter into this? My conclusion is there are a lot of loose rules about this, and they are interpreted in many different ways.

Cable companies carrying their local affiliates may be the "civil" thing to do, but these affiliates are not necessarilly the ones viewers want to watch, especially when it comes to local news and sports. Perhaps a day will come when there will be more options for cable customers. But I'm not holding my breath.

That one is cultural. When I worked at the ABC affiliate in Salt Lake, we were carried throughout eastern Idaho on cable - even in the likes of Idaho Falls, Twin Falls and Rexburg. Since then (early 90s) things have changed and most Salt Lake stations have been dropped in the bigger cities in eastern Idaho that are outside of the Salt Lake DMA.

However, KSL is different. Because of the high percentage of cable subscribers in eastern Idaho who are LDS, any cable system which drops KSL does so at their own peril. Why? Because KSL "is" the LDS channel, carrying General Conference live twice per year and basically being the news mouthpiece of the LDS Church. Of course it would be quite different if these systems never carried KSL - then they'd just pick up the BYU channel and call it good.

However, there is the concept of "grandfathering" that Scott Fybush explained so well above (thanks Scott) - and KSL is grandfathered in these areas. Now, the NBC station in the market, KPVI, could petition to have KSL stricken from cable systems in their market too. But, again, given the cultural interests I've listed above, they would do so at their own peril. LDS church members form a very well organized group and in a market which is probably 85% LDS (as Idaho Falls/Pocatello is), ticking them off is a very bad PR move.

Thanks for that explanation, which kind of confirms that many of these regulations are loosely enforced and/or "grandfathered". Of course, anytime there is duplicate programming on KSL and the Pocatello NBC affilitate, the KSL feed goes to a frozen-screen. BTW, not to quibble, but IF-Pocatello is nowhere near 85% LDS, more like 45-55%. (Rexburg is another story)...

 

[Markxxx]

In some cases, when a distant (but in-DMA) station tries to get carriage on a system in a distant part of the market, the cable company will petition the FCC to redefine that specific station's market to exclude the remote area (e.g. WRNN or WTBY in Monmouth County, NJ).

Two good examples of this are WWTO Channel 35 (Digital channel 10) is licensed to LaSalle, Illinois and is closer to Peoria than Chicago, but included in the Chicago DMA. (In fact at one time WWTO was a repeater station of the NBC affiliate in Peoria). WWTO tried to get on Comcast in Chicago as a "must carry" 'cause it's in the Chicago DMA, but the FCC said "no," to that.

Another example are the two full power stations in Key West, Florida. Key West is part of the Miami DMA and the two full power station tried to get must carry in Miami and other parts of the DMA. Key West is some 150 miles south of Miami, but the FCC said "No," to that as well.

Cable systems can't carry out-of-DMA signals - except when they can, either because they've historically carried the signal, before the current rules took effect, or because the out-of-DMA signal has been designated as "significantly viewed", a complex process that involves analyzing Nielsen's reporting of viewership in the community in question.

In the old days before Nielsen totally ruled the roost starting in the 60s, many stations out west had extensive repeater TV stations. Denver stations were seen in Sheridan Wyo and southeast Montana through the use of repeaters.

The FCC usually let's these alone unless someone complains. Unless there is a significantly viewed exception, the FCC will usually pull the station if the in market station complains.

 

[PDXREXX]

When I Lived In Central WA. (Wenatchee/Ellensburg)
In Ellensburg, Charter Cable Had KOMO, KING and KIRO, on the lineup
as well as Yakima locals And KCPQ has a translator there as well
also when I Lived there in the late 90's KSTW also had a translator
it's long gone now

in wenatchee, that's another story It's part of the Seattle Market yet except for
KCPQ none of the other seattle stations have translators, the Spokane stations
have translators in the area and are available on charter cable as well as Seattle
Locals

 

[BRNout]

Thanks for that explanation, which kind of confirms that many of these regulations are loosely enforced and/or "grandfathered". Of course, anytime there is duplicate programming on KSL and the Pocatello NBC affilitate, the KSL feed goes to a frozen-screen. BTW, not to quibble, but IF-Pocatello is nowhere near 85% LDS, more like 45-55%. (Rexburg is another story)...

Ummmm, not sure about it being that low. I was talking about the ID Falls/Pokey market and the percentage of the populace in that market that is LDS is as high as most of Utah. You cite Rexburg, well that's in the market - Idaho Falls is mostly LDS too. Your number may represent active members of the church, mine includes the so-called "Jack Mormons." Last I checked, that market was over 80% LDS. It may have dropped a bit thanks to the influx of Latinos, but not that much. I'd be shocked if it was any less than 70%. Those areas have actually been more LDS than Salt Lake County for decades now.

Twin Falls DMA is lower, but still over half of the viewers there are LDS (be they active or inactive). Hence the importance of having KSL on the cable lineup there too.

 

[C Murder]

On the Cox system here in Lafayette, LA, we have WBRZ (ABC), WAFB (CBS), and WVLA (NBC) from the neighboring Baton Rouge market as significantly viewed stations. Lafayette has its own ABC and CBS affiliates (KATC and KLFY, respectively) and the NBC affiliate from another neighboring market (KPLC, Lake Charles) since we don't have one of our own.

All of the stations, except for KPLC (which inserts local advertising over the Lake Charles spots) run unaltered—spots, network, etc... and have since the early 90s. Before then, WAFB ran Pay-Per-View barkers over network, while WBRZ ran C-SPAN2. WVLA is a recent addition to the cable system, coming on board in 2006.

 

[wpxt]

I have Metrocast Cablevision of Southern Maine and they carry all 7 locals from Portland and 2 WGBH, 4 WBZ, 5 WCVB and 7 WHDH from the Boston Market. 2, 4, 5, and 7 don't have any signal in Southern Maine where Metrocast is located. Can anyone tell me why they are carried then?

 

[searadiofreak]

Thanks for that explanation, which kind of confirms that many of these regulations are loosely enforced and/or "grandfathered". Of course, anytime there is duplicate programming on KSL and the Pocatello NBC affilitate, the KSL feed goes to a frozen-screen. BTW, not to quibble, but IF-Pocatello is nowhere near 85% LDS, more like 45-55%. (Rexburg is another story)...

Ummmm, not sure about it being that low. I was talking about the ID Falls/Pokey market and the percentage of the populace in that market that is LDS is as high as most of Utah. You cite Rexburg, well that's in the market - Idaho Falls is mostly LDS too. Your number may represent active members of the church, mine includes the so-called "Jack Mormons." Last I checked, that market was over 80% LDS. It may have dropped a bit thanks to the influx of Latinos, but not that much. I'd be shocked if it was any less than 70%. Those areas have actually been more LDS than Salt Lake County for decades now.

Twin Falls DMA is lower, but still over half of the viewers there are LDS (be they active or inactive). Hence the importance of having KSL on the cable lineup there too.

Not to get too off topic, but my stats come from adherents.com

Top 25 U.S. Counties with
Largest Latter-day Saint Communities, 1990
County Number of
Congregations Number of
Members Percent
Salt Lake, UT 985 466,551 64.27%
Utah, UT 649 236,893 89.87
Davis, UT * 309 139,375 74.16
Maricopa, AZ 260 115,080 5.42
Los Angeles, CA 271 103,286 1.17
Weber, UT 224 102,121 64.50
Cache, UT 162 59,974 85.45
Clark, NV 123 59,081 7.97
Orange, CA 115 49,608 2.06
San Diego, CA 112 46,863 1.88
Bonneville, ID 87 41,108 56.93
San Bernardino, CA 95 38,532 2.72
King, WA 91 38,195 2.53
Washington, UT 99 38,097 78.45
Ada, ID 69 32,517 15.80
Bannock, ID 70 31,830 48.21
Box Elder, UT 73 30,667 84.05
Sacramento, CA 67 30,320 2.91
Riverside, CA 67 28,987 2.48
Honolulu, HI 74 26,754 3.20
Santa Clara, CA 57 23,595 1.58
Bingham, ID 57 23,082 61.42
Madison, ID 68 21,567 91.10
Contra Costa, CA 46 19,636 2.44
Alameda, CA 47 19,420 1.52

As you can see Bonneville, Bingham, and Bannock are in that 45-55%, with Madison way up there at 90%. Don't know about those so-called "Jack Mormons"...note these numbers are almost 20 years old, and you are correct the latino population is much larger in East Idaho than it was then.

 

[BRNout]

Your numbers in Salt Lake and Utah Counties from 1990 look fairly accurate - I guess it depends on who you count. I've seen them be counted a little higher like Utah County with 92-93 percent and Salt Lake over 70 (back in the early 90s). Now SL is quite a bit lower - around 55 or 56 percent. The Idaho numbers were interesting because I was always told that Bonneville County at least was heavily LDS. So, thanks for an interesting stat.

Nonetheless (to bring us back into the topic), you can see that there's still a pretty high percentage of that market which has a cultural interest in the LDS Church and the tradition of carriage of KSL (which had translators in at least Bannock County at one time). Also, with Salt Lake being the closest city of any size, there's a more secular interest at work as well.

 

[searadiofreak]

Yes, and to your secular point, it is nice for this E. Idaho resident (who grew up with big-market TV) to see atleast a medium-large market operation (and of rather high quality, I might add). That is one of my points. Why should smaller market residents not be able to have the option of watching larger market, (usually better quality) news? I guess most don't care, they just want "local", and I understand that. But when you are in a market mostly made up of "just out of u-journalism class", it can be a bit frustrating. I would like to see a future where more news options (local, and national), are offered to cable and dish viewers. Afterall, when the lead in your market is the arts fair at the civic plaza, you'd better hope the remote is within reach.

 

[easttxtv]

Currently, the Suddenlink (the name still makes me ??? ???) systems in Tyler and Jacksonville, TX include most locals including KLTV/7 ABC, KYTX/19 CBS, KFXK/51 Fox, and KETK/56 NBC. They also have had distant Dallas-Fort Worth stations included in the past; currently they include WFAA/8 ABC in the mix, even though KLTV/7 is the local ratings fave. I'm not sure how much of that is historical/grandfathering, and how much is KLTV not thinking it's a bother to still have a distant ABC on the local cable. Suddenlink also lists KDFW/4 Fox there, again, not sure if KFXK/51 doesn't care, or if it's historical (the cable predecessors there carried KDFW when it was a CBS affil before the mid-1990s), plus KDFW has news while KFXK (and when it was KLMG before that) hasn't always had news locally.

Pre-Suddenlink, when KYTX/19 came along, it replaced DFW's KTVT/11 CBS on the cable (KTVT had been carried for many years there because it was an indie before it's CBS affiliation and there were no indies in the local market). Before that, when KETK/56 first went on air, there was a few years when DFW's KXAS/5 NBC was still on the cable system's list. I'm not sure how long the overlap lasted, nor whose idea it really was to drop KXAS (I think the cableco said something about needing to make room for another channel, even though it could have been KETK's idea, but I haven't heard definitely) from the system.

Even though none of the major Shreveport stations (KTBS/3 ABC, KTAL/6 NBC, KSLA/12 CBS) were carried in Tyler or Jacksonville, you could find listings for them in both cities' newspapers (either enough readers could pick them up OTA or other cable systems included Shreveport on their list); also the former Shreveport-Texarkana TV Guide included all the Tyler-Longview stations in it's list, so viewers would be knowledgeable of what was on in Shreveport even though Tyler's and Jacksonville's cable didn't carry it.

 

[PDXREXX]

About KSL in Eastern Idaho, According To the Broadcasting Yearbook from the 60's and early 70's
KSL owned 15% of KIDK at the the time

 

[searadiofreak]

About KSL in Eastern Idaho, According To the Broadcasting Yearbook from the 60's and early 70's
KSL owned 15% of KIDK at the the time

And if I don't stand corrected, KSL was CBS back then, as KIDK is today. Makes sense in an odd kind of way.

 

[charlestondxman]

In SC, there are several examples of this. WIS 10 in Columbia, the major NBC affiliate for most of the state, had and still has a very wide cable carriage. They were available in Myrtle Beach for many years (until the new NBC, WMBF came to town), and are still available in Aiken and many other towns not in the Columbia market.

In Myrtle Beach, WIS was shown, but almost all of the syndicated programs were blacked out (like Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Regis and Kelly) by the Myrtle Beach stations. However, they still let Wilmington's NBC, WECT, which was also on the system, carry these shows.

WIS, however, was covered by color bars with an all-caps explanation on why it was blacked out. Down in the Hilton Head/Bluffton area, which is well inside the Savannah market, however, two Charleston stations, WCSC and WCIV, are carried without blackouts from Savannah stations because of their popularity, SC news, and different football games from Savannah.

 

[BRNout]

About KSL in Eastern Idaho, According To the Broadcasting Yearbook from the 60's and early 70's
KSL owned 15% of KIDK at the the time

And if I don't stand corrected, KSL was CBS back then, as KIDK is today. Makes sense in an odd kind of way.

You're right, both were CBS back in the day and KIDK still is. KSL ended up with NBC as part of the deal when CBS bought KUTV and jettisoned their contract with NBC. KSL picked it up and Saturday Night Live has been on another channel ever since......

 

[searadiofreak]

Yeah, KSL may be the only NBC affilitate to not run SNL, but they have no qualms about running their Thursday prime-time specials. Odd.

 

[kenrayc]

Yeah, KSL may be the only NBC affilitate to not run SNL, but they have no qualms about running their Thursday prime-time specials. Odd.

I agree on this one they find SNL innapropiatete but Parks and Recreation and 30 rock are good cant figurere out that one.