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Overlapping Co-channel DTV stations

Several years ago the FCC allowed KCEN in the Waco-Temple-Killeen market to run its digital signal on channel 9 which overlaps with WFAA's digital signal in the southern part of the DFW viewing area. (KFWD will get channel 9 when the transition is complete) I also notice that the FCC has allowed KSWO-DT in Lawton/Wichita Falls to operate on channel 11. It appears this signal will overlap with KTVT in the northwestern part of the DFW area when they move back to channel 11 after the transition.

Can someone explain why the FCC would allow such obvious technical nightmares to happen? I would assume there was some protest over this by both KTVT and WFAA. I'm just curious what reason the FCC gave to grant these applications.
 
Believe it or not, KSWO and KTVT will not overlap. Real life will probably disagree with that statement, but according to the FCC, they're fine.

KCEN and WFAA... that's tougher. I don't know how that one got approved. Looking at their application for channel 9 from way back in 2002, apparently they determined the two had less than 2% interference. I'm not sure how, but that's what it says.

Amusingly, in the original filing, the FCC worried about interference by KCEN-DT 9 to KTRE analog, but not to WFAA. Your guess is as good as mine.

Disasters. And that's only a few of them.

- Trip
 
One of the worst was assigning both KTBN and KVMD digital channel 23, then allowing KVMD to move in closer to LA. KTBN is desperately trying to move to channel 33, but nothing involving Mexican coordination ever moves quickly.

Another bonehead move was allocating channel 50 to KAJB in the Yuma/El Centro market. An analog channel 50 operates out of San Luis Rio Colorado, Sonora, Mexico, less than 50 miles away. As the Mexican channel was owned by the government of Sonora, it wasn't going anywhere. KAJB requested channel 36 and after 9 years, has finally received permission to build their digital station.
 
Channel 11 has been approved for WLUK Green Bay and WMSN Madison. WLUK is moving back to channel 11, and WMSN was just granted a permit to move to channel 49, however both stations chose channel 11 as their final destination and it was granted.

Channel 19 is being used by WMTV Madison and WGN Chicago.

I'm not sure how much overlap is involved with the two channels, but there has got to be some.
 
Jim said:
Channel 11 has been approved for WLUK Green Bay and WMSN Madison. WLUK is moving back to channel 11, and WMSN was just granted a permit to move to channel 49, however both stations chose channel 11 as their final destination and it was granted.

Channel 19 is being used by WMTV Madison and WGN Chicago.

I'm not sure how much overlap is involved with the two channels, but there has got to be some.

As soon as the digital channel from Lafyette signed on channel 11, WTTW has been unwatchable in analog.
 
Jim said:
Channel 19 is being used by WMTV Madison and WGN Chicago.

Channel 19 is also being used by WHOI Peoria (which will cause overlapping in parts of the Chicago and Peoria markets, namely in LaSalle and Livingston counties--the former county in the Chicago market but with the Peoria stations also having a strong presence there for years, and the latter county in the Peoria market--but at one time part of Chicago while their stations are still widely offered on cable in much of that county).
 
tested said:
Several years ago the FCC allowed KCEN in the Waco-Temple-Killeen market to run its digital signal on channel 9 which overlaps with WFAA's digital signal in the southern part of the DFW viewing area. (KFWD will get channel 9 when the transition is complete) I also notice that the FCC has allowed KSWO-DT in Lawton/Wichita Falls to operate on channel 11. It appears this signal will overlap with KTVT in the northwestern part of the DFW area when they move back to channel 11 after the transition.

Can someone explain why the FCC would allow such obvious technical nightmares to happen? I would assume there was some protest over this by both KTVT and WFAA. I'm just curious what reason the FCC gave to grant these applications.

In analog TV, the vast majority of VHF stations are using the maximum power for their channel (100kw chs. 2-6, 316kw chs. 7-13). And the FCC requires stations on the same channel be spaced some minimum distance regardless of the power used. KWAB-4 Big Spring has to be at least 190 miles from KDFW-4 Dallas, even though KWAB is only running 13 kilowatts at about 450 feet. Directional antennas can be used to avoid wasting power over unpopulated areas, but you can't use them to short-space an analog TV station closer to another analog station than would otherwise be allowed.

They're treating digital differently. They seem to be allowing closer spacing if one or both of the stations involved are running less than maximum power, or if one or both use directional antennas. Looking at 73.622 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr73.622.htm) it looks like most of the stations cited in this thread fall into these categories:

KSWO & KTVT: KSWO at 138kw/327m seems to be at maximum facilities for DTV channel 11. KTVT, on the other hand, should be able to run as much as roughly 47kw at their antenna height.

WLUK & WMSN: WLUK should be allowed roughly 100kw at 384m - their authorized power is 17.2kw. WMSN should be allowed roughly 60kw - their authorized power is 15kw and they have a directional antenna.

WMTV, WGN, and WHOI: At 645kw/453m WGN seems to be at maximum allowable power. (they do have a directional antenna though that may be to avoid wasting power over Lake Michigan) WMTV, 155kw/415m, should be able to get roughly 800kw. WHOI, at less than 300m HAAT, should be able to get the full 1000kw - but their authorized power is 195kw. And, they're directional.

I can't evaluate the two California stations because their HAATs are so high, they don't appear on the charts in 73.622 and I don't have time to run the numbers through the formula...

I'm not going to say any of these are a good idea, but I do see how they got through the Commission.
 
What about WEDN-DT (PBS) channel 9 in Norwich, CT? How far away are they from Manchester, NH? Manchester is home to WMUR-TV (ABC) channel 9 (analog). WEDN-DT isn't too strong because I'm no more than 40 miles from Norwich. My converter box detects a faint signal, but never a strong enough one to lock in.
 
w9wi said:
I can't evaluate the two California stations because their HAATs are so high, they don't appear on the charts in 73.622 and I don't have time to run the numbers through the formula...

I have a handy dandy calculator for the exact power levels. http://www.rabbitears.info/calc.php

Enjoy. =)

- Trip
 
tripinva said:
KCEN and WFAA... that's tougher. I don't know how that one got approved. Looking at their application for channel 9 from way back in 2002, apparently they determined the two had less than 2% interference.

That's off by a factor of 10. :) Seriously, there's a 20 mile swath from the middle of Ellis County to the northern part of McLennan County where the two overlap. I suppose if you live there you can point your antenna to whichever station you want to get, but I suspect many or most of the people there get a confused receiver that decides to give them no picture at all.
 
tested said:
That's off by a factor of 10. :) Seriously, there's a 20 mile swath from the middle of Ellis County to the northern part of McLennan County where the two overlap. I suppose if you live there you can point your antenna to whichever station you want to get, but I suspect many or most of the people there get a confused receiver that decides to give them no picture at all.

No, seriously, the FCC document says there'll be less than 2% interference. I'd like to know, as well, how they got that number, but somehow they did.

- Trip
 
Mark said:
Jim said:
Channel 11 has been approved for WLUK Green Bay and WMSN Madison. WLUK is moving back to channel 11, and WMSN was just granted a permit to move to channel 49, however both stations chose channel 11 as their final destination and it was granted.
Channel 19 is being used by WMTV Madison and WGN Chicago.
I'm not sure how much overlap is involved with the two channels, but there has got to be some.
As soon as the digital channel from Lafyette signed on channel 11, WTTW has been unwatchable in analog.
I thought we were loosing the VHF channels with the DTV conversion. Yet if you go to http://dtvallocations.com/ and check channels 7 to 13, there is nearly 60 stations on each of these channels! I've heard and read that after the conversion I'd only need a UHF antenna, but last time I checked channels are still in the VHF frequency!
 
That has never been true, digital was originally supposed to be on channels 7-59 but was later amended to channels 2-51.

Upper VHF should be doable with a UHF antenna.

- Trip
 
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