Part15 radio and it's usefullness...

[radiopilot]

Before I begin, for those wanting a full radio station an AM, go to the Georgia board, there is a 1kw AM station for sale on EBay for $750k... is it a decent buy?????

I've read some of the posts below and I agree with WCWalker on some points and Dudefan on others, while I believe that small communities can benefit from lower power broadcasters, whether if it goes 1 or 2 miles or less, is not the point, but rather the content the community would benefit by having.

Sure it would be great for us to use 10-100 watts, but in order to justify the costs involved with this much power, it must be run commercially!

Now, I would like a license for either AM or FM but we all know this is not going to happen soon, the opportunity is just not there presenting itself... So I must opt for the part15 devices... Keith's setup with the sync transmitter is the key to take this to the 10th degree, and you can use other means for sync'ing other transmitters although it's technically harder to do.

My point is as long as the person doing the transmitting is conveying a positive message to the community who cares how much power it is? I have 4 1kw-10kw AM stations here and the listenership is low, I can't see how they stay on the air, it's all syndicated talk radio with very little 'local' programming, so I never listen to the AM dial and others I've talk to don't even listen to AM at all because of it's content.

This is where the part15 radio can come in and fill that void. Like I said in my previous posts, I'm broadcasting high school, elementary school programs, local swim meet results, science fair results, honor roll calls, I play local bands on the air, air community events and fairs, science and language programs, etc... where else on the dial is this being presented?

Music is great but you get that already on many stations AM and FM... why put up another?

Part15 radio can work if given the proper environment!

Radiopilot
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by radiopilot on 11/17/05 03:18 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[simcha]

I did a little checking for you. First of all as odd as it may seem the owner maybe a related to me, although indeed I cant imagine how. He is has the same name of a famous producer and writer in my family from the 1940's. I only know of two people with that name. Nevertheless, the main point first to look out is the signal and coverage of communities. I am enclosing a link to the page that has there predicted map according to the site http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WYYZ&service=AM&status=L&hours=U Need to know if the cities are worth the money. Another point is why would a station advertise on ebay when there is always a hungry market for decent stations? Another question is why buy a station? If you want to be big on the air insofar is coverage is concerned go and buy a few hours on well known station that also brokers time. You make fantasic deals if they like you and think you will do well. Last year I was on almost 40 hours a week on a major station in South Florida. You dont need that much and I have had to cut it down to a few hours on the weekend because the station leased out everything. It is a great way to be on without the headaches of a station

 

[radiopilot]

> I did a little checking for you. First of all as odd as it
> may seem the owner maybe a related to me, although indeed I
> cant imagine how. He is has the same name of a famous
> producer and writer in my family from the 1940's. I only
> know of two people with that name. Nevertheless, the main
> point first to look out is the signal and coverage of
> communities. I am enclosing a link to the page that has
> there predicted map according to the site
http://radio-l> ocator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WYYZ&service=AM&status=L&hours=U
> Need to know if the cities are worth the money. Another
> point is why would a station advertise on ebay when there is
> always a hungry market for decent stations? Another question
> is why buy a station? If you want to be big on the air
> insofar is coverage is concerned go and buy a few hours on
> well known station that also brokers time. You make fantasic
> deals if they like you and think you will do well. Last year
> I was on almost 40 hours a week on a major station in South
> Florida. You dont need that much and I have had to cut it
> down to a few hours on the weekend because the station
> leased out everything. It is a great way to be on without
> the headaches of a station
>

Simcha, the link does not work. Anyway I'm not looking to get anything in the Atlanta area, this is a tough market and I can see why the station wants to be sold. The money just is not there for this type of competitive market even tough I have no clue what type of programming they were doing. They may lend themselves to an all Spanish or foreign language set up as they do well on the AM side. For me I'd stay out of that market.

The brokering of time on licensed stations is a thought and I've look at doing this earlier, hence the reason I want my own LPFM station even if I have to get sponsors for the station. That chance is far away unless 3rd adjacent channel windows open up in my area.

Radiopilot

 

[simcha]

If you decide to do broker radio, it has its challanges.
First of all do not think that people will stop what they are doing and tune you in for a few hours a week. It is important to be on a station where there is alread an audience. I cannot stress this enough. Example could one imagine someone doing a sunday program called china today on a mostly hatian station? People make mistakes because they are too excited to think logically

 

[radiopilot]

> If you decide to do broker radio, it has its challanges.
> First of all do not think that people will stop what they
> are doing and tune you in for a few hours a week. It is
> important to be on a station where there is alread an
> audience. I cannot stress this enough. Example could one
> imagine someone doing a sunday program called china today on
> a mostly hatian station? People make mistakes because they
> are too excited to think logically
>

I totally agree. That audience can come from many different aspects, in my case it comes from PTA, school flyers and it's pa system, word of mouth (very imnportant), sporting events, etc. As long as the radio has exposure and the image is purely community responsive, you'll have that audience.

Radiopilot

 

[radioboy]

> Before I begin, for those wanting a full radio station an
> AM, go to the Georgia board, there is a 1kw AM station for
> sale on EBay for $750k... is it a decent buy?????

I don't think so. It seems way overpriced to me, and I actually understand somewhat how station values are tabulated.
>
> >
> Now, I would like a license for either AM or FM but we all
> know this is not going to happen soon, the opportunity is
> just not there presenting itself...

Nicholas, I hear ya buddy! Exact same scenario here, and if the owners talk to you at all, they'll say, "I'll take a million bucks for it." For a daytimer with no ratings, sometimes no billing and physically decrepit buildings?
One station similar to what I described has a lesser price tag, but the owner is difficult to deal with on a business level. Nice enough in person, but not someone to do business with. He's tried to sell his daytimer with literally zero billing for the last nine years! I predict he'll bankrupt before he sells.
He's that stubborn!

So I must opt for the
> part15 devices... Keith's setup with the sync transmitter is
> the key to take this to the 10th degree, and you can use
> other means for sync'ing other transmitters although it's
> technically harder to do.
>
> My point is as long as the person doing the transmitting is
> conveying a positive message to the community who cares how
> much power it is? I have 4 1kw-10kw AM stations here and the
> listenership is low, I can't see how they stay on the air,
> it's all syndicated talk radio with very little 'local'
> programming, so I never listen to the AM dial and others
> I've talk to don't even listen to AM at all because of it's
> content.

Likewise, similar situation here. Three of five stations don't even show in the Arbitron book anymore..and I've seen the *real* book for this market. I've
quit listening to AM because there's just nothing there..commercially, that is!
>
> This is where the part15 radio can come in and fill that
> void. Like I said in my previous posts, I'm broadcasting
> high school, elementary school programs, local swim meet
> results, science fair results, honor roll calls, I play
> local bands on the air, air community events and fairs,
> science and language programs, etc... where else on the dial
> is this being presented?
>
> Music is great but you get that already on many stations AM
> and FM... why put up another?

Mine works because there's not much classic country on the air here. Since I started streaming the same signal we've really started to grow again. And, my station really does get letters from listeners. That makes it fun! Even emails from old-time country music artists like Jack Greene, Ernie Ashworth have come in. The secret is: Find the need and fill it. Whatever that is in YOUR market.
>
> Part15 radio can work if given the proper environment!
>
> Radiopilot
>
P.S. There's a link to the "WJJD" control room picture now available from the home page at http://www.expage.com/wjjd. It's pretty nostalgic in itself!<P ID="signature">______________
Proudly remembering the days of the hometown "country giant" radio stations now at
http://www.live365.com/stations/alanmccall</P>

 

[radiopilot]

> > Before I begin, for those wanting a full radio station an
> > AM, go to the Georgia board, there is a 1kw AM station for
>
> > sale on EBay for $750k... is it a decent buy?????
>
> I don't think so. It seems way overpriced to me, and I
> actually understand somewhat how station values are
> tabulated.
> >
> > >
> > Now, I would like a license for either AM or FM but we all
>
> > know this is not going to happen soon, the opportunity is
> > just not there presenting itself...
>
> Nicholas, I hear ya buddy! Exact same scenario here, and if
> the owners talk to you at all, they'll say, "I'll take a
> million bucks for it." For a daytimer with no ratings,
> sometimes no billing and physically decrepit buildings?
> One station similar to what I described has a lesser price
> tag, but the owner is difficult to deal with on a business
> level. Nice enough in person, but not someone to do business
> with. He's tried to sell his daytimer with literally zero
> billing for the last nine years! I predict he'll bankrupt
> before he sells.
> He's that stubborn!
>
> So I must opt for the
> > part15 devices... Keith's setup with the sync transmitter
> is
> > the key to take this to the 10th degree, and you can use
> > other means for sync'ing other transmitters although it's
> > technically harder to do.
> >
> > My point is as long as the person doing the transmitting
> is
> > conveying a positive message to the community who cares
> how
> > much power it is? I have 4 1kw-10kw AM stations here and
> the
> > listenership is low, I can't see how they stay on the air,
>
> > it's all syndicated talk radio with very little 'local'
> > programming, so I never listen to the AM dial and others
> > I've talk to don't even listen to AM at all because of
> it's
> > content.
>
> Likewise, similar situation here. Three of five stations
> don't even show in the Arbitron book anymore..and I've seen
> the *real* book for this market. I've
> quit listening to AM because there's just nothing
> there..commercially, that is!
> >
> > This is where the part15 radio can come in and fill that
> > void. Like I said in my previous posts, I'm broadcasting
> > high school, elementary school programs, local swim meet
> > results, science fair results, honor roll calls, I play
> > local bands on the air, air community events and fairs,
> > science and language programs, etc... where else on the
> dial
> > is this being presented?
> >
> > Music is great but you get that already on many stations
> AM
> > and FM... why put up another?
>
> Mine works because there's not much classic country on the
> air here. Since I started streaming the same signal we've
> really started to grow again. And, my station really does
> get letters from listeners. That makes it fun! Even emails
> from old-time country music artists like Jack Greene, Ernie
> Ashworth have come in. The secret is: Find the need and fill
> it. Whatever that is in YOUR market.
> >
> > Part15 radio can work if given the proper environment!
> >
> > Radiopilot
> >
> P.S. There's a link to the "WJJD" control room picture now
> available from the home page at http://www.expage.com/wjjd.
> It's pretty nostalgic in itself!
>

I've seen your website, nice set up, I too would like to get my website up, but this is so time consuming and I'm here working too many late nights...

Yes the owners of these money losers really think they can 'make a kill' after running these stations to the ground with lousy programming, it'll take half a million just to get the word out that your 'new' station is different from the previous program....

I'd rather fill the niche as you say and offer something just not being programmed anymore.

People don't turn off the radio because there is nothing happening, they are sick and tired of hearing the same rant on the air, ie. Iraq, Bush politics, killings, murders, Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc., everyone knows what I'm talking about... the only AM listening I really do is 'Coast to Coast' with Art Bell or George Noory... if you've listened to them before, you know what I mean,
after that I shut off the radio or tune to my station.

Radioboy, have you ever tuned to Classic Heartland Radio

http://www.classicheartland.com/

They used to be a part15 radio station but moved and started the internet route instead... nice website too!

Radiopilot

 

[pbolyn]

> People don't turn off the radio because there is nothing
> happening, they are sick and tired of hearing the same rant
> on the air, ie. Iraq, Bush politics, killings, murders,
> Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc., everyone knows what I'm
> talking about... the only AM listening I really do is 'Coast
> to Coast' with Art Bell or George Noory... if you've
> listened to them before, you know what I mean,
> after that I shut off the radio or tune to my station.
>

I just checked the Arbitron ratings for Philadelphia. KYW-AM news radio consistently ranks #1. They do a very good job of neutral reporting (like it should be). http://www1.arbitron.com/tlr/public/report.do;jsessionid=KQmyLPCRqvjUHi8Vlf6aqw**

I was surprised to see WPHT-AM fairly high in the rankings. Otherwise, AM stations are down in the mud. WPHT-AM is a right-wing propaganda talk radio station. I listen occassionally for giggles. Today they were blasting moderate Rebublicans! They emphasized "moderate" just like they incessantly emphasize "liberals" as if they are cuss words. Talk radio is apparently somewhat popular on AM, but I don't want to believe the general public audience will accept this in the long run. It's all sensationalized stuff like the National Inquirer.

AM radio, with all the sports, religious and propaganda talk stations is simply an embarassing disgrace. FM is just stereo high-fidelity noise to me these days. Community-oriented radio is gone except in some small remaining areas. Part 15 stations can and should fill the gap within their limitations. Nobody else is!


<P ID="signature">______________
Phil B
</P>

 

[WCWalker]

***My commments are intertwined.

> > People don't turn off the radio because there is nothing
> > happening, they are sick and tired of hearing the same
> rant
> > on the air, ie. Iraq, Bush politics, killings, murders,
> > Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc., everyone knows what I'm
> > talking about... the only AM listening I really do is
> 'Coast
> > to Coast' with Art Bell or George Noory... if you've
> > listened to them before, you know what I mean,
> > after that I shut off the radio or tune to my station.

***Essentially this is correct. People still identify with local news and events and will listen to programming that discusses these issues.

Still, there is a market for the other stuff otherwise they would not be airing it. Mush Limpjaw is still a very popular program even though many of the newcomers to talk have slowly chipped away at his commanding lead.

> >
>
> I just checked the Arbitron ratings for Philadelphia. KYW-AM
> news radio consistently ranks #1. They do a very good job of
> neutral reporting (like it should be).
http://www1.arbitron.> com/tlr/public/report.do;jsessionid=KQmyLPCRqvjUHi8Vlf6aqw**

***Rare in this day and age. Network television and radio news is slanted far to the left while Fox is nothing more than Neo Conservative i.e. phoney Conservative news and talk.

>
>
> I was surprised to see WPHT-AM fairly high in the rankings.
> Otherwise, AM stations are down in the mud. WPHT-AM is a
> right-wing propaganda talk radio station. I listen
> occassionally for giggles. Today they were blasting moderate
> Rebublicans!

***Actually this is Neo Conservative talk. I checked the lineup and Limpjaw, Handitty and Dreck are all phoney, Neo Conservatives that espouse big government spending and programs. O'Reilly is more middle of the road though and not a true Neo Con or Liberal. Not sure about the other guys as they appear to be local shows.

They emphasized "moderate" just like they
> incessantly emphasize "liberals" as if they are cuss words.

***That is funny because most of the syndicated talk on that station is comprised of moderate Neo Con's. Apparently they don't even know what THEY are. The garbage they spew out is as bad as Air America's puke.

> Talk radio is apparently somewhat popular on AM, but I don't
> want to believe the general public audience will accept this
> in the long run. It's all sensationalized stuff like the
> National Inquirer.

***Yep, it is just as bad as the garbage on network TV, especially the Network News and Prime Time programming.

>
> AM radio, with all the sports, religious and propaganda talk
> stations is simply an embarassing disgrace. FM is just
> stereo high-fidelity noise to me these days.

***Agreed.

Back about 10 years ago the United Broadcasting Network was alive and well on radio. They had a bunch of angry Democrats for talk show hosts and it led to some honest, real issue oriented discussion. Of that group, I believe only Chuck Harder is still doing a regular talk show.

Some of the grassroots networks provide some real, honest talk shows. Most of these shows these days are more traditional i.e. real Conservative talk that espouses smaller, less intrusive government at the national level and contradicts the in your face, "we love big government" garbage you hear out of Limpjaw, Dreck and Handitty.

I'd love to find another UBN type network though to help balance out the grassroots Conservative talk that I listen to.


> Community-oriented radio is gone except in some small
> remaining areas. Part 15 stations can and should fill the
> gap within their limitations. Nobody else is!

***Yep, aside from a small handful of rural area and small market AM stations you won't find much in the way of community programming in the major metro area areas these days. This is why Part 15 is so important and must be encouraged to develop into a viable communications service.

 

[dbdigital]

> >
> > AM radio, with all the sports, religious and propaganda
> talk
> > stations is simply an embarassing disgrace. FM is just
> > stereo high-fidelity noise to me these days.
>
> ***Agreed.
>
> Back about 10 years ago the United Broadcasting Network was
> alive and well on radio. They had a bunch of angry
> Democrats for talk show hosts and it led to some honest,
> real issue oriented discussion. Of that group, I believe
> only Chuck Harder is still doing a regular talk show.
>
> Some of the grassroots networks provide some real, honest
> talk shows. Most of these shows these days are more
> traditional i.e. real Conservative talk that espouses
> smaller, less intrusive government at the national level and
> contradicts the in your face, "we love big government"
> garbage you hear out of Limpjaw, Dreck and Handitty.
>
> I'd love to find another UBN type network though to help
> balance out the grassroots Conservative talk that I listen
> to.
>
>
> > Community-oriented radio is gone except in some small
> > remaining areas. Part 15 stations can and should fill the
> > gap within their limitations. Nobody else is!
>
> ***Yep, aside from a small handful of rural area and small
> market AM stations you won't find much in the way of
> community programming in the major metro area areas these
> days. This is why Part 15 is so important and must be
> encouraged to develop into a viable communications service.
>

I have a very good friend of mine who works at an AM station in Los Angeles as Production Director. The station's programming is a mix of satellite-fed sport talk (out of Chicago) and infomercials, many of which are produced locally at their studios, with my friend usually hosting.

Needless to say, the station's ratings are nearly in the toilet, except when they air a game. I told him that, at one time, the station he works for was one of the top stations in LA. He said," Well, you know, AM is dying." I said, "No, the station you work for is."

If AM radio is, in fact, dying, the blame rests squarely with commercial broadcasters. Most haven't a clue, it seems, on how to attract listeners and appear to have written off AM as a low-quality medium. It's an insidious mindset.

Should LPAM (beyond Part-15) become a reality, it will be interesting to see what quality of equipment manufacterers offer for this service. I think we should demand nothing less then AMS with a digital upgrade path, similar to the BE transmitters.

But all of us are going to (and even now) have to re-educate the public as to the quality of AM and draw them back to it.

db

 

[WCWalker]

***Replies marked as such.***

> I have a very good friend of mine who works at an AM station
> in Los Angeles as Production Director. The station's
> programming is a mix of satellite-fed sport talk (out of
> Chicago) and infomercials, many of which are produced
> locally at their studios, with my friend usually hosting.
>
> Needless to say, the station's ratings are nearly in the
> toilet, except when they air a game. I told him that, at
> one time, the station he works for was one of the top
> stations in LA. He said," Well, you know, AM is dying." I
> said, "No, the station you work for is."

***Yes, this story proves just how out of touch the top brass has become. While there is a market for satellite programming you cannot expect to have a successful station on either AM or FM if that is the only programming you provide.

In addition to facing the problem of satellite only programming, AM stations also have to deal with the reduction in the high end of the frequency response in the their audio (now going to be 5khz and essentially the quality of a standard telephone line), IBOC and the general perception by everyone and his brother that AM is dying.


>
> If AM radio is, in fact, dying, the blame rests squarely
> with commercial broadcasters. Most haven't a clue, it seems,
> on how to attract listeners and appear to have written off
> AM as a low-quality medium. It's an insidious mindset.

***Correct. Quite probably if the powers that be had fully adopted and successfully marketed the Motorola CQUAM Stereo format in the mid 1980's we would not even be having this discussion. At that time I owned a Carver TX 11a and could listen to AM stereo broadcasts. I recall how warm and naturaly sounding AM stereo was when compared to FM stereo. AM can actualy sound BETTER than FM if given a chance! The only real downside is of course it is more susceptible to attracting noise that affects the audio.

>
> Should LPAM (beyond Part-15) become a reality, it will be
> interesting to see what quality of equipment manufacterers
> offer for this service. I think we should demand nothing
> less then AMS with a digital upgrade path, similar to the BE
> transmitters.

***Good point. You know, I actually thought about requesting AM stereo service in my comments to the FCC but I forgot to add that point. Perhaps I should put in another comment asking for it. Certainly, there will be time to make the point if we get a second round from the FCC.

>
> But all of us are going to (and even now) have to re-educate
> the public as to the quality of AM and draw them back to it.

***It can be done. The AM station in ND that my friend planned to buy was doing pretty well. It had five employees and live and local programming for most of the day. Sales revenue far exceeded the expense budget of the station and the owner does make a pretty decent profit.

I would have enjoyed running that station because it relied upon local employees to host the daytime programs. Night time probably would have been canned though unless a severe weather event or big news was taking place.

>
>
> db
>

 

[dbdigital]

s mindset.
>
> ***Correct. Quite probably if the powers that be had fully
> adopted and successfully marketed the Motorola CQUAM Stereo
> format in the mid 1980's we would not even be having this
> discussion. At that time I owned a Carver TX 11a and could
> listen to AM stereo broadcasts. I recall how warm and
> naturaly sounding AM stereo was when compared to FM stereo.
> AM can actualy sound BETTER than FM if given a chance! The
> only real downside is of course it is more susceptible to
> attracting noise that affects the audio.
>
The Carver TX 11a was a great sounding and looking tuner. An audiophile friend of mine has Carver components as his main stereo system. I'm using a high end Sony receiver which I modified with a Chris Cuff CQUAM decoder.

KABC 790 is about the last wide-band, AMS station in LA. Although it's talk radio, it sounds great, the audio has a very full, rich quality. On Christmas Day they play all music and you really get an idea of the tremendous potential of CQUAM stereo. With all the other AM stations reducing their signal to 5 Khz, KABC's signal jumps out when you tune through the band.

I think an important component of LPAM should be its sound. Until the day comes when AM goes digital (and I think it's inevitable), LPAM can truly distinguish itself and stand away from the pack of other broadcasters by offering, not only unique content but the best sound analog AM can have.

But this makes me wonder, if LPAM is to be confined to the X-band, should the X-band remain analog?

db

 

[JasonW]

I don't think digital AM is inevitable or even desirable. A well-processed analog AM signal sounds warm and rich. Good receivers also make a difference.

The additional circuitry in pocket and portable AM (and FM) radios with PLL digital tuning makes them battery gluttons (that's why they often have a 1-hour automatic shut-off feature). Analog tuned (needle and dial) radios are much more miserly with batteries. The considerably more circuitry that will be required for AM receivers for IBOC will make the power consumption such that pocket and portable radios will be much less practical.

"Digital" is one of those buzz-words ("Turbo" was similarly used a few years ago) that is intended to dazzle customers. If any AM station manager thinks that going digital will make people listen to the same canned, schlock programming that is the real reason why more people aren't listening, I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell to them. -- JasonW

> s mindset.
> >
> > ***Correct. Quite probably if the powers that be had
> fully
> > adopted and successfully marketed the Motorola CQUAM
> Stereo
> > format in the mid 1980's we would not even be having this
> > discussion. At that time I owned a Carver TX 11a and
> could
> > listen to AM stereo broadcasts. I recall how warm and
> > naturaly sounding AM stereo was when compared to FM
> stereo.
> > AM can actualy sound BETTER than FM if given a chance!
> The
> > only real downside is of course it is more susceptible to
> > attracting noise that affects the audio.
> >
> The Carver TX 11a was a great sounding and looking tuner. An
> audiophile friend of mine has Carver components as his main
> stereo system. I'm using a high end Sony receiver which I
> modified with a Chris Cuff CQUAM decoder.
>
> KABC 790 is about the last wide-band, AMS station in LA.
> Although it's talk radio, it sounds great, the audio has a
> very full, rich quality. On Christmas Day they play all
> music and you really get an idea of the tremendous potential
> of CQUAM stereo. With all the other AM stations reducing
> their signal to 5 Khz, KABC's signal jumps out when you tune
> through the band.
>
> I think an important component of LPAM should be its sound.
> Until the day comes when AM goes digital (and I think it's
> inevitable), LPAM can truly distinguish itself and stand
> away from the pack of other broadcasters by offering, not
> only unique content but the best sound analog AM can have.
>
>
> But this makes me wonder, if LPAM is to be confined to the
> X-band, should the X-band remain analog?
>
> db
>