Patents, trademarks, copyrights, and opening up the black box?

[spinjector]

Hi all,

I have three questions:

Question 1: Suppose I opened up a $100 black box from a major broadcast equipment manufacturer that we are all familiar with, and found that it's "brain" was a single electronic component that Digikey sells for $1.35.

Question 2: I create a small web page that shows this (much like Gizmodo did with the iPhone 4) and explain how any engineer can do what I did and get the cheap part from Digikey and do the same thing as the $100 black box.

Question 3: Could I have my butt sued off for doing this by the manufacture of the Black Box? =-)

Thanks.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

They can sue the pants off of you if they feel like it. A judge and jury would only award them damages only if your design can be proven to be substantially copied from the original black box. Obviously the DigiKey component would be the same, and it would have certain requirements for its pin out - probably provided by DigiKey.

The rights of the major broadcast manufacturer begin at their original design.

 

[spinjector]

Well, there's really no "design"... LOL

It's just one three-pin component soldered on a circuit board with a big fancy $100 plastic box.

If I were to show how to use the $1.35 component on a piece of perf-board, there's really no "design" being infringed on. The component can only be wired ONE way - there's no "design" because that's the only way it can go without going POOF.

 

[DudeFan]

If it is exactly as you describe: a single component available to the public and manufactured by a company that likely has a published data sheet on the component, then not bloody likely you are going to be sued by the box manufacturer. The design, if it is as I stated it, is not capabale of patent protection.

 

[boiseengineer]

Hope you've got the bridge picked out you're going to live under after "they" get through with you.
It' s the way that cheap part's used that is the key, not that it's a cheap part.

 

[RadioMan203]

OK, playing Devil's Advocate here for a moment: Let's say the part in question is a mercury switch. Vendor "A" puts it in a black box and sells it for $100. Vendor "B" sells it loose for $3. How could vendor A go after vendor B?

I would think depending on the complexity of the black box in question if it's a commonly found IC that works in a manner pre-defined by the manufacturer that there isn't much of any trade secret there unless it's specifically designed with proprietary designed supporting circuitry.

Of course, a friendly pass-along of information from one engineer to another is not exactly "public dissemination" in the traditional sense so I would doubt person #1 would get hurt - people trade different bits of info all the time today. I have received schematics for all sorts of devices and items in my travels, some to repair items and yet others just to learn from.

 

[SirRoxalot]

How about simply marketing a device that "works like a ______" for a lot less money? Or pointing out that "component A" does "most of what Black Box B" does? You don't need to point out that you cracked open the black box, and you're making no claims that they're equivalent.

 

[spinjector]

Ahhh yes. The "like" word. Comparative advertising of generic products. "Compare to Pantene Pro-V Shampoo". "Compare to Chanel #5 Cologne". I think I see a way. =-)

 

[SRP]

Hope you've got the bridge picked out you're going to live under after "they" get through with you.
It' s the way that cheap part's used that is the key, not that it's a cheap part.

+1

I'm not sure what your motivation behind doing this is, but if it's to be a hero with your boss, don't ever expect to work for corporate radio (or any corporation for that matter) if "they" go after you, because "they" will also go after your deep-pocketed employer as well.

 

[BROADCAST]

Some time ago i got a replacement software module from a certain processor manufacturer.
This replacement module was unpotted,whilst the original module was potted.

I got the impression that the manufacturer was not that bothered as it was an old processor,so did not see the worth in potting it any more.

 

[DudeFan]

Guys as a former IP attorney, if it is a 3rd party IC that is available to all with a electronic component catalog and the IC is installed as per the IC manufacturer's design, pin-out, and data sheet. There are no secrets or IP that the box manufacturer can enforce. The IC is simply doing what it is designed to do. A suit could only succeed if someone skilled in the art of electronics could not otherwise accomplish the same end.

 

[spinjector]

It's the Robin Hood in me. Ever since I started in radio in college, I've been regularly and consistently astonished at the staggeringly inflated prices that broadcast equipment manufacturers charge for their products. I mean seriously...$100 for $2 in parts? Perhaps $5 total with manufacturing costs? That's almost as much of a markup as the infamous $800.00 military toilet seats of the 1980's.

Not that I have any sympathy for the greedy corporations that own the stations, but there are a lot of small private companies like the one I work for that need to pinch every penny they can. I'm an inventor myself, so I'm not entirely unsympathetic to making some money. But that kind of arrogance really jerks my chain. I would never do such a thing, even if it was the only product of it's kind on the market.

 

[darklife]

I would LMAO if that black box part was a BA1404 IC

 

[spinjector]

LOL!! Harris tried so hard to hide it, but eventually I found it. ;-)

 

[RealityCheckr]

If the world were "right" radio engineers would be designing and making their own equipment. But it ain't that world any more.

And the guys that do have the time and don't have the budget certainly can/should build their own boxes. They fact they don't says a lot (about something, though what might be a matter for debate).

Back to the questions. As long as you don't pilfer their circuit board layout (which may or may not be copyrighted) you can do what you describe.

And just remember the holy "free market"! If people did not buy it at that price they wouldn't be charging that much. See my first point.

 

[Lazy J]

I'm not sure what your motivation behind doing this is, but if it's to be a hero with your boss, don't ever expect to work for corporate radio (or any corporation for that matter) if "they" go after you, because "they" will also go after your deep-pocketed employer as well.

Wow!...? Paranoid much? Nobody is going to spend thousands of dollars suing you just because you ordered a part from Digikey and used it the same way they did. Or because you opened the box and told your buddies what was inside. Just don't try to sell it, and don't copy any firmware (if it's a ROM chip).

This whole bit about them suing you AND your employer if completely laughable. If it's an "over-the-counter" component, then they have no recourse.

 

[rorban]

It's the Robin Hood in me. Ever since I started in radio in college, I've been regularly and consistently astonished at the staggeringly inflated prices that broadcast equipment manufacturers charge for their products. I mean seriously...$100 for $2 in parts? Perhaps $5 total with manufacturing costs? That's almost as much of a markup as the infamous $800.00 military toilet seats of the 1980's.

Not that I have any sympathy for the greedy corporations that own the stations, but there are a lot of small private companies like the one I work for that need to pinch every penny they can. I'm an inventor myself, so I'm not entirely unsympathetic to making some money. But that kind of arrogance really jerks my chain. I would never do such a thing, even if it was the only product of it's kind on the market.

Broadcast equipment companies have to be viable, long-term businesses to support their products throughout their operating lives. They have to provide customer service. They have to pay R&D teams to create products that, in this digital age, are getting exponentially more complex. They have to create documentation -- 300-page operating and service manuals don’t write themselves. They have to pay for product management, which is mostly research to determine how a product is to be designed to meet customer needs. They have to pay for marketing, or no one will know who they are or why their products fit customers’ needs. They have to provide dealer discounts to obtain wide distribution. They have to pay for parts, labor, and fixed plant costs to do the manufacturing or they have to farm this out to a contract manufacturer who builds these costs into the price it charges the broadcast equipment company. They have to pay for administration because all of the above have to be managed. All this costs money, and people who have never worked in manufacturing are usually surprised by the realities of the cost structures needed to support a viable business.

95% of small business start-ups don’t last five years. Almost all die from a combination of inadequate capitalization and inadequate cash flow, mostly due to naïve business models going in.

Bob Orban

 

[SRP]

Broadcast equipment companies have to be viable, long-term businesses to support their products throughout their operating lives. They have to provide customer service. They have to pay R&D teams to create products that, in this digital age, are getting exponentially more complex. They have to create documentation -- 300-page operating and service manuals don’t write themselves. They have to pay for product management, which is mostly research to determine how a product is to be designed to meet customer needs. They have to pay for marketing, or no one will know who they are or why their products fit customers’ needs. They have to provide dealer discounts to obtain wide distribution. They have to pay for parts, labor, and fixed plant costs to do the manufacturing or they have to farm this out to a contract manufacturer who builds these costs into the price it charges the broadcast equipment company. They have to pay for administration because all of the above have to be managed. All this costs money, and people who have never worked in manufacturing are usually surprised by the realities of the cost structures needed to support a viable business.

95% of small business start-ups don’t last five years. Almost all die from a combination of inadequate capitalization and inadequate cash flow, mostly due to naïve business models going in.

Bob Orban

Bob - THANK YOU for spelling it out so eloquently. As one who's both worked for a broadcast equipment vendor and someone who runs a small business I DO know just how much it can cost to get a product to market.

And as for you, "Lazy J" - your response is what's laughable, not what I wrote. Obviously you don't know much about the modern legal system.

 

[Lazy J]

I would like to know Bob Orban's opinion on if there is a legal case here. Bob did give great insight into running a business, but didn't comment on the legality of using over-the-counter parts to copy a circuit. Of course, in our modern legal system, you can sue anybody for anything. But, would there be a case?

If your not selling your copies,

If you do freely distribute a schematic of the circuit,

If you do inform people how to build it themselves,

and provide info on where to obtain the parts,

Could somebody take legal action against you and win??

 

[cgould]

I would like to know Bob Orban's opinion on if there is a legal case here. Bob did give great insight into running a business, but didn't comment on the legality of using over-the-counter parts to copy a circuit. Of course, in our modern legal system, you can sue anybody for anything. But, would there be a case?

If your not selling your copies,

If you do freely distribute a schematic of the circuit,

If you do inform people how to build it themselves,

and provide info on where to obtain the parts,

Could somebody take legal action against you and win??

If what you do impacts the company in question financially (i.e. allow people enough insight to replicate designs for themselves, and bypass the official product, and allow copies to proliferate) then they will have a case against you.

It's called Intellectual Property. Music is all made up of the same notes that we all are capable of creating at no cost. That doesn't mean we have the right to assemble them in a specific order to replicate already recorded songs, and sell it for ourselves because the official albums are too expensive to buy, just because it's just the same free notes anyway...

That impact could be as simple as some person doing your mod, and creating issues because they didn't know what they were doing, and then expecting support from the company that originally made the product to get it working again. Yes...that DOES happen, and that costs a company money. If this happens a lot, and it all can be traced back to you, then you might have a problem on your hands...

-C