• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

payola and corpus

C

countrybumpkin

Guest
will the scandal reach the coastal bend? which programmers are on the take? who is letting the labels buy there way onto the playlist? pay for play would certainly explain the "interesting" ads at the country outlets in corpus.

"pay for players," you can run but you can't hide. it may have started in nyc, but like they say...(BLEEP) rolls down hill.
 
> Which ads are "interesting"?

And country has not been even mentioned in the investigations... which have only revealed two currently employed programmers so far.
>
 
not sure of your point. you think it stops at the two programmers mentioned in the settlement? just those two guys in the whole country? just the pop or rock formats? they all do it. every time a record company buys roll-a-sign or t-shirts or fly-a-way vacations or pays an artist to play a gig on behalf of a station or a big screen tv to give as a prize or gas cards or laptops for radio personnel or trips to the super bowl or artist showcases for a pd, it is all part of the same game. record money affecting a playlist. sure, it may not be explicit (though very often it is), but it is certainly implied. how many free meals have programmers had from morton's, ruth's chris or sullivans purchased by a regional rep? when radio needs a van wrapped in a logo, who do you think they call? the independent then the regional reps. in that order. follow the money. you give that kind of money (or goods or services) to a radio station or a station employee and you've got "juice" and affect the playlist.

that's how randy travis singles end up on the air in corpus christi.

if you don't know it you are either not in the biz or somehow convinced yourself that the practice is ok because everyone does it. people beleive that a song got on their favorite station because someone at the station liked it. the truth is that the warren brothers get played because of a promise for a trip to see tim mcgraw in houston or dallas or san antonio.

bottom line is that promotional money affects the playlist. it isn't supposed to.
 
> not sure of your point. you think it stops at the two
> programmers mentioned in the settlement? just those two
> guys in the whole country?

In the true era of payola, from the 50's to the early 70's, there were only a handful of indictments in the whole country. Alan Freed was hit with IRS tax evasion based on unreported income. Dick Clark was cleared. A couple of other PDs were indicted, and only a couple ever were conviceted.

Two of the mentioned programmers, in Buffalo and Rochester, were discovered by thier own stations before the investigation... and fired. Diana Laird in SD is suspended... since payola does not apply at a Mexican licence, this one will be very interesting to review later. And the PD in NC was also let go. That is as far as it goes today.

Everyone else in radio is innocent until proven guilty. At least that is what I learned in civics class.

> just the pop or rock formats?
> they all do it. every time a record company buys
> roll-a-sign or t-shirts

Very often programmers say, "I am considering a song, but I need something to support it and get it noticed." In no case is a bunch of crummy T´s going to influence adding a bad song.

: or fly-a-way vacations or pays an
> artist to play a gig on behalf of a station or a big screen
> tv to give as a prize or gas cards or laptops for radio
> personnel or trips to the super bowl or artist showcases for
> a pd, it is all part of the same game.

The NY Attorney General was very focused on Indies. Most indies do not or did not work much beyond the top 50 or 60 markets.

Most radio promotion by labels is concentrated there. The fact that TM's HitDisks and Radio Express' RadioPlay sets exist is that labels ignore the smaller markets and stations have to buy the music. (www.radioexpress.com shows one of these subscriptions services for smaller markets)

Most radio companies have prohibitions of out of town showcases and gifts over $50. In this case, any exception is either payola or subject for firing or both.

: record money
> affecting a playlist. sure, it may not be explicit (though
> very often it is), but it is certainly implied. how many
> free meals have programmers had from morton's, ruth's chris
> or sullivans purchased by a regional rep?

How many members of the local sewer board get the same from manufacturers of pumps and chemicals? Business meals are pretty standard in relationship building, are not bankable and not considered improper in general.

: when radio needs
> a van wrapped in a logo, who do you think they call? the
> independent then the regional reps. in that order.


You know why? Both parties benefit. There is synergy. This is common in many businesses. The station gets a cool wrap, and the artist gets street promotion. What is unethical about this if it is above board? And, of course, the station benefits... not an individual. Business exists to make money. When two parties gain in a legal fashion, there is no reason NOT to do a deal.

It's frequent for stations to get calls begging to add an artist to an event. This is because the label and artist want the exposure. Since the benefit is mutual, there is no wrongdoing.

Note that payola is the undisclosed taking of money or valueables by a station employee in return for promotion without the onsent of management. If management agrees, it is not and can not be payola. The only other consideration is compliance witht he sponsor ID rules of the FCC, a totally different item.

: follow
> the money. you give that kind of money (or goods or
> services) to a radio station or a station employee and
> you've got "juice" and affect the playlist.

The stations in markets big enough to influence the charts are actually big enough to pretty much avoid conflicts of interest.

> that's how randy travis singles end up on the air in corpus
> christi.

Corpus Christi is not a market that can influence the charts at all. It would take a doozen or two Corpus Christi's to make any dent on rank.
>
> if you don't know it you are either not in the biz or
> somehow convinced yourself that the practice is ok because
> everyone does it.

Again, doing some quid pro quo promotions, such as T's to support a new single, or doing a contest to send listeners to an out of town concert is not evil. In both examples, the promotion gets extra on air mentions for the artist and something of value for the station. I frequently suggest to PDs to always ask for label support with new adds, like CDs for street hits, and more in the case of new artists... T's or jackets or caps or CD players, etc. New adds are so dangerous, it takes extra effort to make them positive, so getting the lable to help is fair and reasonable and totally legal.

Going to lunch is normal in every business in the world. Maybe you are not a major market PD and don't get invites... and are envious. The fact is, such invitations are not a sign of any impropriety. In whatever case, most of us turn most of them down as they take time away from our jobs.

Radio also likes to get interviews with name artists for the morning show... labels like interviews with new artists. So sometimes there is a package... we get a short interview with the no namer and a good one with the star. We all win. Some staitons get artists to go out on van stops, to answer the request lines, to do a dinner with listeners before a concert... all are part of making radio more fun, but require a nice relationship with the label. None of htis is illegal or unethical.


> people beleive that a song got on their
> favorite station because someone at the station liked it.

I don't think the average listener even asks this questions. Listeners like some songs and dislike others. The PDs job is to minimize the latter.

Songs get on stations because they fit the format, have a sound that fits a hole in the playlist, are by an artist that pulls positives on tests, where the song is on other stations we look at for additonal guidence, are right for our market, etc. It helps that the PD hears something in the tune, but there are many other factors involved due to the inherent risk in playing any new music.

> the truth is that the warren brothers get played because of
> a promise for a trip to see tim mcgraw in houston or dallas
> or san antonio.

If the trip was for a contest, this is legit. If it is for an individual, and undisclosed to management it is payola, and probably a violation of IRS rules, too... unless the label 1099's it.
>
> bottom line is that promotional money affects the playlist.
> it isn't supposed to.

In 99.9% of the times, it does not. And that other few times, it is illegal and the perp should be arrested. Period. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by David Eduardo on 07/31/05 09:47 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: payola and corpus *DELETED*

Post deleted by Safford
 
> Another countryboy infestation moment.
>

What's your friggin problem? I am pretty sick of your incoherent snide remarks when an effort to explain _based on reality_ is made by me.

Oh, well, I suppose this goes back to when you were part of the cabal that argued that XEG had been in Villa Acuña...
 
how many
> free meals have programmers had from morton's, ruth's chris
> or sullivans purchased by a regional rep?

Last time I checked, there were no restaurants by that name in Corpus Christi. Though I wish they did have a Ruth's Chris

> that's how randy travis singles end up on the air in corpus
> christi.
If Randy's getting played in Corpus, it's probably on KFTX. I'm assuming by your e-mail address, that you are taking a swipe at K-99. You obviously haven't listened to that station. Their playlist is tighter than a new pair of boots on a rainy day. If it's not in the top 20, K-99 doesn't play it.

> if you don't know it you are either not in the biz or
> somehow convinced yourself that the practice is ok because
> everyone does it. people beleive that a song got on their
> favorite station because someone at the station liked it.
> the truth is that the warren brothers get played because of
> a promise for a trip to see tim mcgraw in houston or dallas
> or san antonio.

I'm still of the opinion that good songs get played, bad songs don't. Case in point: Alan Jackson's latest single, by far the WORST of his career. Stations didn't play it because people thought it sucked.

Why record companies would want to worry about their artist getting played in the # 132(or whatever Corpus is) market is beyond me.
 
> > Another countryboy infestation moment.
> >
>
> What's your friggin problem? I am pretty sick of your
> incoherent snide remarks when an effort to explain _based on
> reality_ is made by me.
>
> Oh, well, I suppose this goes back to when you were part of
> the cabal that argued that XEG had been in Villa Acuña...
>
darn..I guess when the day arrives when you ever admitted you were wrong in your information and someone else was correct,the comments will stop.It will snow 15 feet in the Sahara that day. You seem to have built a "rep" on other boards with your "comments"of not being wrong, so I am not alone in that regard.Your "reality" is stretching a little fact."Incoherent" fits you well. BTW I rarely have responded to you in the last year alone.If it bothers you, skip my post. Have a nice week:)
 
> Why record companies would want to worry about their artist
> getting played in the # 132(or whatever Corpus is) market is
> beyond me.
>
If there is money to be made some way some how,it doesn't matter what size a market is. Signals travel further than the city limits.
 
> > > Another countryboy infestation moment.
> > >
> >
> > What's your friggin problem? I am pretty sick of your
> > incoherent snide remarks when an effort to explain _based
> on
> > reality_ is made by me.
> >
> > Oh, well, I suppose this goes back to when you were part
> of
> > the cabal that argued that XEG had been in Villa Acuña...
> >
> darn..I guess when the day arrives when you ever admitted
> you were wrong in your information and someone else was
> correct,the comments will stop.It will snow 15 feet in the
> Sahara that day. You seem to have built a "rep" on other
> boards with your "comments"of not being wrong, so I am not
> alone in that regard.

The truth hurts, especially on boards where "the death pf radio" seems to have dominated a might portion of posts of late. Unfortunately, radio is not dying, 50's and 60's radio was not better than today's efforts and you are one of the people I have proven wrong.

On the occasions where I have been wrong in fact or theory, and this has been substantiated, I have accepted such readily.

Since so much of the posting content _is_ opinion, mine is as worthy as yours. It's just where fact comes in that there are differences. Since you have never proven me wrong, you just sound like you are sore.

> Your "reality" is stretching a little
> fact."Incoherent" fits you well.

A comment apropos to your generally "broadcasting sucks" attitude.

> BTW I rarely have responded
> to you in the last year alone.

Still trying to prove XEG is not and never has been in Monterrey, I see. Good luck.

P.S. I may challenge your viewpoints, but it takes a boor to call another poster "incoherent" following a rather cogent (all modesty aside) description of promotion vs. payola... one on which you had no contribution from any perspective at all. The opportunity was not lacking. Too bad. It's a good subject, and there have to be more comments of import besides "everyone is a crook."
 
The same over bloated diatribe many have come to expect from you. You seek to continously redirect the subject when you are called upon and like some over grown schoolboy gloat that you are right and others are wrong. You never have admitted and you never will admit you are incorrect in any given subject. Oh well that is your lot in life,and your lust to have the final say.Again,if you don't like what I have said and offer, simply skip my post than inflate your self eagerness to gloat. As I have stated, many boards here on radio-info and other places have had enough of your sanctimonous self,stated by other posters besides myself. So I will take the first step,and just simply skip yours from this moment on and stay the course,and allow you to satisfy your indulgence in getting the last word in. Someone posted earlier,that it must be getting hot because the testosterone levels are high.
 
> > Why record companies would want to worry about their
> artist
> > getting played in the # 132(or whatever Corpus is) market
> is
> > beyond me.
> >
> If there is money to be made some way some how,it doesn't
> matter what size a market is. Signals travel further than
> the city limits.
>

While that is a valid point, in the music biz they don't rationalize that way. It's all about the points that that airplay gets you towards charting.

Plays on each station get points in accordance with that stations's audience size and that is from the Metro area Arbitron data.

Points are important as chart position determins whether a CD is stocked and wher eit is displayed at retail. chains like Wal Mart and Best Buy have strict requirements based on charting for stocking and prominance of display.
 
> Last time I checked, there were no restaurants by that name
> in Corpus Christi. Though I wish they did have a Ruth's
> Chris

ok, you pick the establishment.


> If Randy's getting played in Corpus, it's probably on KFTX.
> I'm assuming by your e-mail address, that you are taking a
> swipe at K-99. You obviously haven't listened to that
> station. Their playlist is tighter than a new pair of boots
> on a rainy day. If it's not in the top 20, K-99 doesn't play
> it.

have you seen the "lunar" category? the category only exhists to serve the rocord labels. not the audience.
>

>
> I'm still of the opinion that good songs get played, bad
> songs don't. Case in point: Alan Jackson's latest single,
> by far the WORST of his career. Stations didn't play it
> because people thought it sucked.

bad songs DO get played. but only becuase of the money from the labels. granted it may not be often nor in the best of dayparts. but, they do get added. why add a shitty song? even in a crappy daypart? we need the money.
>
> Why record companies would want to worry about their artist
> getting played in the # 132(or whatever Corpus is) market is
> beyond me.

i'm with you. but, they send the reps to the region and they bring the money and the goods with them. if they didn't have any influence on the play list they wouldn't spend the money. they do, so they do.
>
 
> The NY Attorney General was very focused on Indies. Most
> indies do not or did not work much beyond the top 50 or 60
> markets.

Easy target, I think. IMHO, Spitzer is simply bucking for the governorship or higher office and is doing the high-profile prosecutions as a way of getting his name in the news. Going after the indies who have far less capital to use in their defense is cheaper and easier than going after the big labels who could drag a payola case out for years. This was kinda cowardly if you ask me, since it's the major labels who are the big offenders.
>
> How many members of the local sewer board get the same from
> manufacturers of pumps and chemicals? Business meals are
> pretty standard in relationship building, are not bankable
> and not considered improper in general.

Wasn't there an episode of "King of the Hill" that dealt with something similar - Hank got elected to the city council to get an ordinance mandating low-flow toilets removed...

>
> It's frequent for stations to get calls begging to add an
> artist to an event. This is because the label and artist
> want the exposure. Since the benefit is mutual, there is no
> wrongdoing.

Oh? Maybe it's not wrong, but how ethical is it? What about the band that can't get signed for some reason but probably has mass appeal... but never gets a shot because there's no damn 'good ole boy' network between the station and the label. That's just not fair.

> Note that payola is the undisclosed taking of money or
> valueables by a station employee in return for promotion
> without the onsent of management. If management agrees, it
> is not and can not be payola. The only other consideration
> is compliance witht he sponsor ID rules of the FCC, a
> totally different item.

Are you telling us that if I'm a programmer and my GM tells me I can, I can actually get paid by the label for playing something as long as it's properly disclosed? As the saying goes... you gotta be shitting me.

> The stations in markets big enough to influence the charts
> are actually big enough to pretty much avoid conflicts of
> interest.

Actually, they're large enough to be big law enforcement targets and they make SURE they don't have a conflict of interest.

> New adds are so
> dangerous, it takes extra effort to make them positive, so
> getting the lable to help is fair and reasonable and totally
> legal.

On a different subject, that's what irritates the hell out of me - the notion that new adds or for that matter, music not on some consultant's 'safe' list is extremely dangerous. That's one big thing that's wrong with radio today, it's way too safe. No wonder so much of radio's audience is looking for it's music in other media.
<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom