• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

People are so negative about HD Radio

BRNout said:
OK, it ruins my ability to listen to nice clean AM signals and has removed my prior option to listen to adjacent market ("distant") adjacent-frequency signals on FM. In that way it has limited reception from my location and thus harmed me by removing some stations that I used to enjoy. The FM subchannels that I can receive on my portable Inspiron HD Radio - if I stand still so that I don't lose digital lock - are not a sufficient substitute to replace the stations that I have lost the ability to listen to on AM and FM.

That's how it's adversely affected me. And, this is a 'discussion' board - all we're doing is putting it to use.

Ya know.. I think most of us understand the issues by now. AM HD bad; but I would argue that DXer's don't really have a say because they're out of market and don't support the local stations nor advertisers. Not too mention they make up probably 1-100th% of the total radio listening. Sorry your hobby has been derailed, but radio is a business and has to be operated as such.

Discussion board, I agree completely. Repetitive mantra, not sure if that's required since you and others have made the same points numerous times.
 
Savage said:
And the cavalier attitude about legitimate issues expressed by Howard, an admitted member of the increasingly lonely and strident pro-HD faction, does nothing but bolster the arguments of the anti crowd. Howard displays a gentler yet unmistakably similar modus operandi typically employed by HD fans - namely, ridiculing critics.

Hey, keep up the ad hominem arguments, instead of showing how HD critics are wrong. Now THAT'S the way to win converts for a highly controversial, highly irrelevant technical "innovation."

KB's opinions are no more "prejudice" than are mine or Howard's. Opinions are opinions. That's what this board is for.

First of all Bob, I take offence to people who label other people strictly because you don't agree with them not agreeing with you. Examples like: 'You must be a Liberal if you don't claim to be a conservative', (or agree with me). 'You may be a thief if you have black skin'. Or, in this case, you must be pro-HD Radio if you don't join in with the 'HD Radio Bad' voices. Sort of like the moronic diatribe "You're either with us, or your with the terrorists". Well I don't play that game.

Honestly? I don't have skin in the game either way. Like you, I am a station owner/businessman. Am I affected by HD radio like your AM station is? Nope, but trying to run others who want to actually DISCUSS HD radio by assigning labels and effectively shouting them down in text makes this 'discussion' board a sham.
 
Savage said:
It doesn't help the credibility of the FM-HD proponents that the "mitigation provision" for the HD-FM digital power increase employs identical language to that once proposed to help adjacent-channel victims of AM-HD. As noted: mitigation has never been ordered. Not once. That's not a good track record.

Which is why it is nothing short of reckless to suggest that HD Radio be given a blanket power increase with the flimsy proviso that interference problems can be worked out amicably or with the FCC acting as referee.

The track record so far has been terrible. A case in point has been WYSL and WBZ. Granted we're talking AM and not FM here. However, not only has that complaint not been resolved, swept under the rug by the FCC, but the owner of WYSL has been subject to attack in a trade magazine because of it.

Is this the kind of ordeal station owners are to expect when they file complaints about their signal being trampled on because a neighboring station has increased its power?
 
Howard, come on now - kindly cite one instance where I have "labeled" you or called you a name.

(Don't bother. I didn't.)

Please note that my post addresses the HD interference concerns, and lack of mitigation of problem cases, by the Commission. Your post once again reverts to personal issues. This reinforces my point that the engineering behind HD is so bad, its proponents can't defend it without attacking critics. It happens over and over and over. That's how Guy Wire made himself look like an abject nitwit in Radio World Engineering Extra last summer without my having to type a syllable (even though I did choose, at RW's invitation, to administer the public coup de grace two months later.) If this is "shouting people down" in your book - so be it. I prefer to advance the arguments, and may he whose case is stronger, win. Looking at what's transpired with HD Radio thus far, I know which side I'd rather be on.

Instead of trying to marginalize me with allusions to political and racial metaphors I never made - not here or elsewhere, now or before - you would help your case for HD more if you showed others how my arguments are wrong. You know: specifically.
 
Carmine5 said:
Which is why it is nothing short of reckless to suggest that HD Radio be given a blanket power increase with the flimsy proviso that interference problems can be worked out amicably or with the FCC acting as referee.

The track record so far has been terrible. A case in point has been WYSL and WBZ. Granted we're talking AM and not FM here. However, not only has that complaint not been resolved, swept under the rug by the FCC, but the owner of WYSL has been subject to attack in a trade magazine because of it.

Is this the kind of ordeal station owners are to expect when they file complaints about their signal being trampled on because a neighboring station has increased its power?

I probably shouldn't be trying to comment via my iPhone, as sometimes I find myself fat-fingering this touch screen keyboard, so pardon my typing in advance..

The Commission has been backing out of spectral matters for years. It started with getting out of the Auxiliary frequency coordination business, delegating that to voluntary frequency coordinators. Once the volunteer coordinators got tired of being beaten to a pulp by disputes, it was assigned to commerical interests such as Comsearch. So now we have issues like interference, whether IBOC or no, that get pushed to the back burner.

Not to simplify something that I have no part of, as I'm sure Bob has taken whatever actions he could, but if for some reason my primary market coverage area was being infringed upon by another station and I could document the loss of revenue because of the infringing station, I'd be the first to lawyer-up and go after the infringing station directly, knowing full well that in these times, the FCC calvary won't come to my rescue.
 
HowardMBurgers said:
Ya know.. I think most of us understand the issues by now. AM HD bad; but I would argue that DXer's don't really have a say because they're out of market and don't support the local stations nor advertisers. Not too mention they make up probably 1-100th% of the total radio listening. Sorry your hobby has been derailed, but radio is a business and has to be operated as such.

Discussion board, I agree completely. Repetitive mantra, not sure if that's required since you and others have made the same points numerous times.

Well, you asked...... ;)

For me, yes, it's somewhat of a hobby to dx. However, often I find myself in an area where the format I prefer to listen to is coming from an adjacent market. Or, as far as AM is concerned, perhaps I am traveling and want to catch up with the news/weather from home; or an evening talk show that's pre-empted in my area. Far more people than "hobbyists" do this from time to time.

And, your answer belies the sort of tone and attitude that invites resentment among those of us who don't appreciate being told that we don't matter and that our rights must be steamrolled by this flawed technology (and it is) because that's progress. It's not.

Had we set up a digital platform like the UK or Europe has, you wouldn't be seeing these sorts of complaints. Message boards in the UK tend to lean in favor of their digital system and the debate/complaints tend to center around range, bandwidth and audio matters. And many who feel that DAB+ and DRM are better systems. However, those discussions almost never question the fundamental concept as we're debating here. This tells me that we got it wrong right from the beginning.
 
Howard, you're right about viewing the prospect of the FCC actually doing something about an IBOC adjacent-channel interference case as - well, "dim." But allow me to show you how this game is played:

iBiquity, the Alliance and the lawyer-packed (and engineer-lite) FCC have conspired to create a little jurisdictional Catch-22 designed to prevent precisely the action you propose. If a station victimized by IBOC interference tries to short-circuit the FCC complaint-and-enforcement process and sue the interferor directly, you land immediately into a legal conundrum. Yes: along with trashing the decades-old allocation scheme, distorting the NRSC standards and redefining what "interference" is, the IBOC cabal has thought of this too.

So: you've filed your interference complaint(s) with the Enforcement Bureau - which the Commission staff, deeply in the tank for iBiquity, has resolutely spiked. They'll pretend like they never received it. If you press individual staff members, they will counsel you to approach the interferor to "try to work something out." The interferors, knowing they hold all the cards, give you the finger. What the FCC WON'T do: take any action one way or other other.

Your proposed case against the interfering station lands you in Federal court, because radio waves don't respect state borders and are thus by definition "interstate commerce." Under Federal court rules, since Congress has given the FCC exclusive jurisdiction over the EM spectrum, you can't seek relief in Federal court until you have "exhausted administrative remedies." Your complaint is still pending (recall, the FCC hasn't given you relief or dismissed it.) Nor will they: if they grant you relief and order the offending station to reduce digital power or turn off the IBOC, they've just killed HD, which they don't want to do. If they dismiss your complaint, they've greenlighted a Federal interference lawsuit which will also kill HD (nobody is going to install an expensive system which could either get them sued or which the FCC might order them to turn off.) So - voila! The FCC sits on your complaint. Neat, huh?

Of course, with the passage of time, the argument "you haven't exhausted administrative remedies" gets thinner and thinner, so you could head to court to point out that the FCC has spiked your complaint for a year or two - and these days, you could also add the argument that the FCC has NEVER taken action on ANY IBOC interference complaint (and notwithstanding a recent post here by The Cuyahoga Tejano alleging otherwise, there have been scores of them.)

I believe that sooner or later somebody is going to sue over IBOC interference, and that becomes more likely with the pending HD-FM digital power increase. This time around, we're not talking about disused AM facilities but high-billing FMs worth tens of millions. When the stakes get high enough, it's gonna happen. But it will have to be a major player with resources, since litigating just the threshold jurisdictional issue could cost tens of thousands - with no guarantee of success, of course. Then the ensuing lawsuit - promising as it does to be highly technical and hard to get a judge to understand or care about - could easily run to $250K in legal fees.

But with a big major-market high-billing FM it could easily be worth it. And THAT, boys and girls, will mark The End of IBOC. The HD loons are sowing the seeds of their own demise with this nitwit digital increase - so I say, bring it! When -10 dBc doesn't improve coverage, let's go to -4! -2!
 
Thanks for your impressions, and I imagine experiences Bob. Not that you could probably say, but have you considered civil action against the offending station for reasonable loss of revenue? Restraint of trade issues come to mind.
 
Savage said:
I believe that sooner or later somebody is going to sue over IBOC interference, and that becomes more likely with the pending HD-FM digital power increase. This time around, we're not talking about disused AM facilities but high-billing FMs worth tens of millions. When the stakes get high enough, it's gonna happen. But it will have to be a major player with resources, since litigating just the threshold jurisdictional issue could cost tens of thousands - with no guarantee of success, of course. Then the ensuing lawsuit - promising as it does to be highly technical and hard to get a judge to understand or care about - could easily run to $250K in legal fees.

It's quite clear that the FCC doesn't want to get involved in IBOC interference disputes, so we must be prepared to fight this battle on our own.

Note that the compromise reached by NPR and iBiquity on the FM power increase includes some language on interference remediation, but it's essentially meaningless because action can only be taken in cases where the problem is "continual". So -- for example, if a station along the Jersey Shore gets clobbered every other summer night (when "ducting" is common) by adjacent-channel IBOC hash from Long Island or New England, that problem can be dismissed as "intermittent". And if the interference gets worse along a stretch of busy highway, the official response may be "no problem --just keep driving until you get out of it".
 
Yeah, restraint of trade wouldn't lie - but certainly there are other causes of action. I haven't ruled out legal action - but the list of defendants when we get this front-burnered wouldn't be limited to CBS Radio Northeast. I would also include whoever manufactured WBZ's IBOC exciter (probably Harris), iBiquity, the HD Alliance and probably Walden, Manuelian and whoever the GM of WBZ is now as individuals.

Right now the priority is spending the dough to get our FM translator on the air, so we get an immediate fix to stop the interference and resutling revenue loss. We do have an affirmative obligation at law to take all reasonable measures to limit our damages, and the translator will hopefully accomplish that.

Calling CQ to any other entity interested in filing an HD interference suit: I hereby offer my services as a witness. I've got PLENTY of documentation and a compelling story to tell.
 
HowardMBurgers said:
Thanks for your impressions, and I imagine experiences Bob. Not that you could probably say, but have you considered civil action against the offending station for reasonable loss of revenue? Restraint of trade issues come to mind.

The problem is it is the little guy with limited resources against the likes of CBS who have enough attorneys on staff to make most small stations go bankrupt. Unfortunately, the American Justice system is not so much about who is right as it is about who has the best lawyer(s). Sorry, but that is reality.
 
Chuck said:
The problem is it is the little guy with limited resources against the likes of CBS who have enough attorneys on staff to make most small stations go bankrupt. Unfortunately, the American Justice system is not so much about who is right as it is about who has the best lawyer(s). Sorry, but that is reality.

Sadly, Chuck, that's absolutely right and in two sentences you have also managed to describe the reason why our society, our culture and our national economy are slowly turning clockwise in a toilet bowl.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom