People meters not accurate?

[davideduardo]

PPM will tell programmers when the sample is tuning out. Due to the small demo samples, it cannot accurately reflect what the audience is doing. I hope that specific information is not released to advertisers until a true representative sample size is determined, targeted, measured and accredited.

There are plenty of times in diary based data runs in Maximiser where the software will not produce a report because there is inadequate sample. Try running something like Black 18-24 Males on 7-Midnight and in many cases it barfs. That's the issue with all polls... when you slice and dice the data to thin, the underlying respondent level is not statistically acceptable.

Currently, less that 10 individuals can represent an entire demo in NYC reflecting the habits of hundreds of thousands of listeners.

That's been the case for 42 years with the diary, too. I think the expectations of users on granularity are too great... when you look at a thin demo for a single day, there just are not going to be enough meters behind the data, even if Arbitron improves the proportionality issues still outstanding.

If you're truly interested, go to the Arbitron site and read their propaganda. Then visit the Houston and Philly sites on this board and read about the results. It's eye opening.

The results based on pure sample size are going to be fine. The issue is whether there is true proportionality in every cell by age, sex and ethnicity... and that is where the answer today is "no." It's fixable, but it is going to cost Arbitron more money than I think they realized.

 

[hamNcheese]

No matter what Arbitron does, smebody will complain. It might take awhile to work out the bugs, but it seems like fair and 'mo better way then the paperbacks and greenbacks. If arbitron has to sink a few more bucks into it to make it work, then thats what they got to do.

 

[scooty430]

Here's some problem with the PPMs (speaking from personal knowledge)

- Hard to remember to keep the thing on.
- Not able to be used in many situations (working out, dressed up occasions (imagine a woman wearing a PPM with her slinky black dress), gettin' it on, etc.)
- Fall asleep watching the TV and it can't be charged for the next day
- Only very responsible, organized, maybe anal people will wear it regularly. Many others will balk because it is a pain in the ass, you don't get paid for wearing it, and why bother?
- Those that are hard to reach through marketing lists will not be counted.
- Young people and minorities almost certainly would be less willing / able to participate.
- Doesn't record any headphone listening.

 

[davideduardo]

Here's some problem with the PPMs (speaking from personal knowledge)

- Hard to remember to keep the thing on.

It does not turn off, unless the battery is discharged.

- Not able to be used in many situations (working out, dressed up occasions (imagine a woman wearing a PPM with her slinky black dress), gettin' it on, etc.)

It does not have to be worn at all times. For example, it might sit detecting for many hours straight at work. And the diary never registered listening "while working out" and other situations where the person was not aware of the station, so that is not a defect vs. the diary.

- Fall asleep watching the TV and it can't be charged for the next day

How many people do you think regularly do that? Anyway, the charge now lasts several days.

- Only very responsible, organized, maybe anal people will wear it regularly. Many others will balk because it is a pain in the ass, you don't get paid for wearing it, and why bother?

You do get paid. The family gets points for hours in motion, days in use, etc. And if you don't undock it for a day, Arbitron calls.

- Those that are hard to reach through marketing lists will not be counted.

I don't know what a "marketing list" is but Arbitron uses RDD to recruit, not lists. They will sooon also use cell phone recruitment, and do in-home recruitment in at least Houston.

- Young people and minorities almost certainly would be less willing / able to participate.

In all three markets, Blacks have been recruited in excess of the proportional part of the sample. 18-34 is hard in any survey, so they have to over-recruit. Spanish dominant Hispanics don't unbderstand research to begin with and are hard to recruit. It just takes extra effort, just as in the diary.

- Doesn't record any headphone listening.

Yes, it does.

 

[Ray22]

PPM needs headphone adapter to "hear" during headphone use. A real pain and seems most will not bother or remember to carry it around with the meter.

How much background noise will cover up the encoding is possible issue.

The PPM doesn't count data when no movement or "sense of motion" is detected over a certain period of time. Most be worn, and already night "listening while falling asleep" is detecting loss of listeners in Phil.

PPM would detect "working out" listening to whatever the gym PA speakers were playing (if encoded yet) and if the PPM'er was carrying the unit.

 

[davideduardo]

PPM needs headphone adapter to "hear" during headphone use. A real pain and seems most will not bother or remember to carry it around with the meter.

That is likely, but if a family agrees to carry the meter, it is likely they will at least partially conform to the rules.

How much background noise will cover up the encoding is possible issue.

If you can hear the station, the meter will detect it

The PPM doesn't count data when no movement or "sense of motion" is detected over a certain period of time. Most be worn, and already night "listening while falling asleep" is detecting loss of listeners in Phil.

It does not have to be worn during the day. The algorithm that determines usage takes into account that the meter may spend the whole day immobile after it "gets to work". The critical issue is that the meter be undocked and that there is motion that indicates that the person has engaged in a normal activity. Not moving the meter for hours at work is considered normal, and the meter can be on a desk, a workbench, or clipped to or in a purse and be considered "in use." It does not have to be worn, ever.

PPM would detect "working out" listening to whatever the gym PA speakers were playing (if encoded yet) and if the PPM'er was carrying the unit.

If the person puts the meter in their gymn bag along with the cell phone, whatever it hears will be detected. It DOES NOT have to be carried.

 

[InTIMadate]

David has sucked deep from the Arbitron kool-aid and believes that the PPM is near perfect. That's his opinion. I disagree. So do Arbitron's top four clients. I don't have the time to start the argument and documentation of how weak the sampling situation is again. It's all on the Houston board archives if you're interested.

Here's three points to ponder:

Morning listening has been dramatically reduced since the introduction of PPM. Program Directors I've talked to personally do not believe that the PPM is recording listening before the consumer leaves the home. They're concern that if the PPM is in another room, on another floor, inactive or on the charger it has not been recording the alarm clock radio, morning workout on headphones, shower radios and other usage. Agencies are balking at the current morning rates and radio's most profitable daypart is under attack.

Women are not carrying the unit at the predicted levels. This is part of problem that forced Arbitron to trade out a chuck of sample in Houston this last summer forcing them to miss their sampling goals. This probem was featured in the trades.

The PPM has not recieved accreditation for any market since Houston was approved over a year ago. Obviously they want and need the accreditation. The unprinted story is why they have not bee accredited for Philly, NYC, LA and Chicago. There's a big problem.

I believe in electronic measurement. We should have made the jump ten years ago. The problem I have is junk research being sold as fact and costing the business big in bad times. I hope they get their act together soon. It's costing a lot of broadcasters their jobs every week.

I applaud the leaders of the four companies that produced the ultimatum letter to Arbitron last week. I hope they'll continue to challenge and threaten Arbitron to improve their systems quickly.

OK Dave, let's talk facts. What is the PPM limit for number family members living together and participating in one survey period?

 

[davideduardo]

David has sucked deep from the Arbitron kool-aid and believes that the PPM is near perfect. That's his opinion. I disagree. So do Arbitron's top four clients. I don't have the time to start the argument and documentation of how weak the sampling situation is again. It's all on the Houston board archives if you're interested.

I have significant issues, but they are all sample related, and have to do with proportionality issues in the individual age cells by sex, geography, ethnicity and language usage among Hispanics. Arbitron is doing a poor job there, and only "guarantees" the 6+ sample but not the component parts.

Morning listening has been dramatically reduced since the introduction of PPM. Program Directors I've talked to personally do not believe that the PPM is recording listening before the consumer leaves the home. They're concern that if the PPM is in another room, on another floor, inactive or on the charger it has not been recording the alarm clock radio, morning workout on headphones, shower radios and other usage.

The PPM monitors 24/7. An algorithm determines how far beyond docking and hawo far before undocking the meter detections are placed in tab. The meter does not have to be out of the dock to detect, and does not have to register movement for what it hears to be "counted."

Women are not carrying the unit at the predicted levels. This is part of problem that forced Arbitron to trade out a chuck of sample in Houston this last summer forcing them to miss their sampling goals. This probem was featured in the trades.

That is totally untrue. Women are being found to use less radio than men, but male and female compliance are on similar levels.

[/quote]The PPM has not recieved accreditation for any market since Houston was approved over a year ago. Obviously they want and need the accreditation. The unprinted story is why they have not bee accredited for Philly, NYC, LA and Chicago. There's a big problem.[/quote]

The reason is sample based. The methodology has been accepted, but the implementation in areas of sample have not. LA and Chicago are not running, and an accreditation when the panel is not built out would be next to impossible. NY has huge sample issues, and nobody knows what the Philly issue is.

OK Dave, let's talk facts. What is the PPM limit for number family members living together and participating in one survey period?

The PPM panel has no survey period restrictions. The maximum in-panel time is two years; that is why the Houston panel had issues in June as there were many panelists who had reached the two year limit... and they were hasitily and badly replaced. The maximum number of meters per household unit is the same as the diary. Read the description of methodology.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

David, I'm sure my questions have been asked already, but I don't remember... Does the PPM measure listening on the Internet (as I am doing right now)? Does it measure only over the air real radio stations who stream, does it measure real radio stations HD programming that happens to be on the Internet (as Clear Channel streams its HD stations)? and does it measure at all any Internet-only stations like Radio Paradise (which I am listening to now and I listen to RP more than any other Internet stream OTA or not)?

 

[davideduardo]

David, I'm sure my questions have been asked already, but I don't remember... Does the PPM measure listening on the Internet (as I am doing right now)? Does it measure only over the air real radio stations who stream, does it measure real radio stations HD programming that happens to be on the Internet (as Clear Channel streams its HD stations)? and does it measure at all any Internet-only stations like Radio Paradise (which I am listening to now and I listen to RP more than any other Internet stream OTA or not)?

The PPM measures anything that is encoded. However, each separate service has a different code, unless a 100% simulcast exists. So a web stream that conforms with the AFTRA rules and cuts out spots will be a separate "service" and not added to the radio station numbers. In Houston, even some storescasts are being encoded!

Since the HD1 channel is 100% identical to the analog channel, they share encoding. But HD2's will be treated as separate entities. If an HD2 format is identical to the web stream, I believe they can be treated as a single code, although I have never asked that question.

A pure web stream if encoded will be treated as a station. Of course, to show in the reports, it must have a minimum amount of listening, just like a radio station.

 

[InTIMadate]

The PPM panel has no survey period restrictions. The maximum in-panel time is two years; that is why the Houston panel had issues in June as there were many panelists who had reached the two year limit... and they were hasitily and badly replaced. The maximum number of meters per household unit is the same as the diary. Read the description of methodology.

Actually David, there is a big difference. In the Diary system, the maximum number of diaries in a household is nine. With the PPM the maximum is 16. So one large, Catholic Hispanic family could have 16 PPM active and representing the listening habits of over 67,000 Hispanic listeners in Houston. if I've done my math correctly.

As for your argument about NYC accreditation, Houston was accredited last November, while still in testing and after Arbitron started releasing the pre-currency reports like they have in NYC.

You are correct about Philly. No one is talking about the issues keeping Arbitron's longest running PPM market test from being accredited. It is easy to guess though....

 

[davideduardo]

Actually David, there is a big difference. In the Diary system, the maximum number of diaries in a household is nine. With the PPM the maximum is 16. So one large, Catholic Hispanic family could have 16 PPM active and representing the listening habits of over 67,000 Hispanic listeners in Houston. if I've done my math correctly.

This contradicts what was said at the last Consultant Fly-In a couple of months ago where the question was asked and answered as "same as the diary." I am stumped to find any reference to the number, as it is not even in the description of methodology of the Houston market report! Can you point me to the source?

As for your argument about NYC accreditation, Houston was accredited last November, while still in testing and after Arbitron started releasing the pre-currency reports like they have in NYC.

But Houston had been running for about 16 months in November of last year. Philly is new (the former test not counted, of course) and NY is in its second month while LA and Chicago and Riverside don't even have fully built panels. Houston had a full panel by late 2005.

 

[scooty430]

Here's some problem with the PPMs (speaking from personal knowledge)

- Hard to remember to keep the thing on.

It does not turn off, unless the battery is discharged.

I mean on your body, not "on" power wise. (By the way, after 15 minutes of being flat and motionless, it blinks and stops recording data, assuming you've set it down somewhere.)

- Not able to be used in many situations (working out, dressed up occasions (imagine a woman wearing a PPM with her slinky black dress), gettin' it on, etc.)

- Fall asleep watching the TV and it can't be charged for the next day

How many people do you think regularly do that? Anyway, the charge now lasts several days.

The charge lasts a day and a half, in my experience, after a night of charging. As for falling asleep in front of the TV, am I the only guy that does that? (ha)

- Only very responsible, organized, maybe anal people will wear it regularly. Many others will balk because it is a pain in the ass, you don't get paid for wearing it, and why bother?

You do get paid. The family gets points for hours in motion, days in use, etc. And if you don't undock it for a day, Arbitron calls.

You get paid $50 after the first 90 days. Then $5 every few weeks. Token money. (But more than the dollar bill I guess they used in diary days.)

- Doesn't record any headphone listening.




Yes, it does.

Not according to the lady I talked with! They ask you if you listen on headphones, because the recorder can't pick it up.


Anyway......probably more accurate than writing it down in a diary (who can remember what they listen to?) but it has its flaws. It's not like, for instance, a Tivo recording one's every move. (Now there is some DATA!)

 

[davideduardo]

I mean on your body, not "on" power wise. (By the way, after 15 minutes of being flat and motionless, it blinks and stops recording data, assuming you've set it down somewhere.)

That is the motion sensor... it's a reminder to carry. The meter never, ever stops detecting, even while docked in the middle of the night. The only time detections are not utilized is when an edit rule kicks them out... and example being from one hour after docking until 4 AM, all detections are "discarded" if there is no undockking and movement to avoid tabulating detections while a person is asleep. A woman may typically clip the PPM to her bag or purse, and it may not move for hours. The edit rule indicates that if there is prior undocked movement and later movement, the meter was being carried.

It defintely does not stop detecting after 15 minutes.

The charge lasts a day and a half, in my experience, after a night of charging. As for falling asleep in front of the TV, am I the only guy that does that?

You are trying to give the impression that you have a meter. You should not be posting any information here. It is neither ethical nor proper. On the other hand, your lack of understanding of how the meter works is astounding, so maybe you are just bsing us.

You get paid $50 after the first 90 days. Then $5 every few weeks. Token money. (But more than the dollar bill I guess they used in diary days.)

You are bs'ing us. There is a gift card incentive for getting through the initial period (which is NOT ALWAYS 90 days) but the family gets points for days of carriage and hours of carriage.

Not according to the lady I talked with! They ask you if you listen on headphones, because the recorder can't pick it up.

There is an adaptor you clip on. Whether anyone uses it is debatable, but it can detect while using headphones.

 

[hamNcheese]

maybe arbitron should just do a phone survey.
call 50,000 people and break it down.

offer a $10 McGift Card as payment for participating.

 

[Hunter]

maybe arbitron should just do a phone survey.
call 50,000 people and break it down.

Great idea! And they should change their name to Birch Ratings too.

 

[bigtime]

Urban stations around the country have always had the benefit of listeners filling out listening that they don't actually do. That phantom listening goes away with PPM.

 

[InTIMadate]

They Blinked!

Just announced, Arbitron is delaying the roll-out in NYC, Chicago, LA and other large markets.
Read the story on the front page of Radio-info.

 

[hamNcheese]

maybe arbitron should just do a phone survey.
call 50,000 people and break it down.

Great idea! And they should change their name to Birch Ratings too.

I didnt know Birch offered a $10 gift card.

 

[Hunter]

maybe arbitron should just do a phone survey.
call 50,000 people and break it down.

Great idea! And they should change their name to Birch Ratings too.

I didnt know Birch offered a $10 gift card.

If they did, maybe that's why they are out of biz.