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Perfect 10 on ZLX...just more of the same

If you listen to ZLX at around 1:50, they play a person's "perfect 10", where the listener picks 10 songs that they e-mail in.
After listening to people's picks, I can see why "classic rock" radio sucks so bad: it is just an excuse to play the songs that ZLX would play anyway.
The majority of the picks include: Steve Miller, The Eagles, a Boston band song (J. Geils, Boston, The Cars, Aerosmith), Led Zeppelin, etc....how original, what programming!
They still haven't/ won't play my Perfect 10...it actually includes songs, where as, the listener might say..."I haven't heard that song in a while".....
wake me up when it's over!
 
mcamp said:
If you listen to ZLX at around 1:50, they play a person's "perfect 10", where the listener picks 10 songs that they e-mail in. After listening to people's picks, I can see why "classic rock" radio sucks so bad: it is just an excuse to play the songs that ZLX would play anyway. The majority of the picks include: Steve Miller, The Eagles, a Boston band song (J. Geils, Boston, The Cars, Aerosmith), Led Zeppelin, etc....how original, what programming! They still haven't/ won't play my Perfect 10...it actually includes songs, where as, the listener might say..."I haven't heard that song in a while".....

They're afraid that for every listener that might say "I haven't heard that song in a while", that perhaps a hundred listeners might say "I don't know this song. I'm changing the station. Maybe WROR is playing something I know right now".

Since the vast MAJORITY of their listeners are the people who pick the most common, usual overplayed stuff (Steve Miller, The Eagles, J. Geils, Boston, The Cars, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, etc...) and people like you and me who want to hear something different are in the vast MINORITY, they're probably correct.

That's why I'm listening to their HD-2 channel ("Lost Classics & Deep Tracks") instead of their main channel. They don't need to worry about ratings for it (yet), so the playlist doesn't pander to the mainstream masses (so far).
 
I am a rocker. Have been for many years. This is the stuff I grew up with.Always liked the artists they play.
That being said, their playlist is extremely stale. They should take a page out of Disney's playbook: Disney will issue their catalog on tape/DVD for a while, then it goes away for several years, "into the Disney vault".

Promote the daylights out of the purge of these overplayed songs. There is a great opportunity here to do some really fun production pieces:
Led Zep - but no Stairway to Heaven

Clapton - but no Layla

Skynrd - but no Freebird, etc.

Take the 5 most overplayed songs, for example, by any given artist and do not play them AT ALL, for a period of, say, one year. Replace them in the rotation with 5 lesser known cuts from that same artist. Do some crossover stuff currently being done as "oldies" in the overall mix. Shake well, and serve over a bed of smoking rock and roll...
 
WLYNgm said:
Promote the daylights out of the purge of these overplayed songs. There is a great opportunity here to do some really fun production pieces:

Led Zep - but no Stairway to Heaven

Clapton - but no Layla

Skynrd - but no Freebird, etc.

Take the 5 most overplayed songs, for example, by any given artist and do not play them AT ALL, for a period of, say, one year. Replace them in the rotation with 5 lesser known cuts from that same artist. Do some crossover stuff currently being done as "oldies" in the overall mix. Shake well, and serve over a bed of smoking rock and roll...

Nice idea, I'd like it, but it wouldn't work for them. Their core audience clamors for just those certain overplayed songs, over and over again. If WZLX threatens to remove them, WROR (and others) will just play them even more often, and get those listeners. WZLX's ratings would go down, no matter what other lesser-known songs they play in their place, or how good those songs are.

Those of us who post here are radio geeks, we've listened to a lot more radio and music than most people. We've heard the overplayed hits ad nauseum until they're coming out of our ears. But, the majority of casual listeners who just listen in the background of their workday, their commute, or their weekend activities really want to hear just their few favorites over and over again whenever they turn on the radio. If they hear songs they don't know all the words to, or can't play every "air guitar" lick to, they change the station to find one of their overplayed favorites that they know better.
 
Actually, this is something ZLX seems to be going thru right now.
I'm subjected to it all day, so I've noticed slight changes over the last month: they are playing harder rocking songs during the day (Van Halen, AC/DC, Judas Priests, Ozzy, etc...)
Occassionally you will actually hear a nugget on peoples "perfect 10", which would go against your argument Eli.
They also have been doing Carter's i-pod segment at 1:00, which in most cases is something out of the ordinary....lets call it baby steps, or maybe the masses are really getting sick of the same ol', same ol'.
I know many who post here put "us" in a different catagory, regarding music knowledge, but maybe their audience (ZLX, et al) is starting to tune out the Eagles, after all, it's been shoved down our throats for thirty years, and now people are beginning to gag.
 
People love these songs and you can't get away from them. As someone who plays in a local hack coverband, there is no accounting for taste. Play "Sweet Home Alabama," "Mustang Sally" and "Roadhouse Blues" and it fills the dance floor. Play something lesser known and you sometimes get crickets.

It's the same thing with radio. I personally would love to hear more deep album cuts from J. Geils, The Doors, Springsteen, etc. instead of the "Centerfold," "Roadhouse Blues" and "Born to Run" but I doubt it's ever going to happen.
 
This is why I enjoy listening to shows like Lost and Found, The Underground Garage on Sirius radio, and other shows that play tracks that have not been heard in sometime. I still listen to ZLX in the morning but find myself turning the dial when I start to hear classic stuff that I have heard over and over.
 
mcamp said:
Occassionally you will actually hear a nugget on peoples "perfect 10", which would go against your argument Eli.
They also have been doing Carter's i-pod segment at 1:00, which in most cases is something out of the ordinary....lets call it baby steps, or maybe the masses are really getting sick of the same ol', same ol'.
I know many who post here put "us" in a different catagory, regarding music knowledge, but maybe their audience (ZLX, et al) is starting to tune out the Eagles, after all, it's been shoved down our throats for thirty years, and now people are beginning to gag.

Yes, once in a while a gem that's not too worn out may get through, as long as it's by a well-known artist whose hits they also play. Also, Carter is the Music Director, so he gets a little creative license for certain features.

However, I don't think most of WZLX's audience has been listening to the Eagles for 30 years. I don't believe that WZLX is primarily aimed at people in their late forties and fifties who grew up listening to music in the 1960's through the mid-70's. I think it's aimed at mostly somewhat younger people, mainly in their thirties, who discovered the biggest hits by their core classic artists (Led Zep, Pink Floyd, Doors, Beatles, Stones, Eagles, etc...) second-hand, when they were already Classic Rock songs by the time they were listening to radio in the the 80's, so all they got on the radio by then were their greatest hits. They weren't old enough to listen to them the first time around when progressive FM was playing their deeper album tracks as current artists, if they were even born yet. They grew up discovering those artists already as classic rockers, and the current artists they grew up also listening to were The Police, U2, Tom Petty, Springsteen, etc... all the late 70's/80's artists that WZLX plays.
 
Eli Polonsky said:
They're afraid that for every listener that might say "I haven't heard that song in a while", that perhaps a hundred listeners might say "I don't know this song. I'm changing the station. Maybe WROR is playing something I know right now".

And there is a whole generation of listeners who are turning off the radio entirely because of those tight playlists. If you really only want to hear the same 80 songs over and over again then an iPod is what you want, not the radio. Everyone wants to play it safe and keep the business in the slow yet still profitable decline that it is in, rather than actually taking a risk program a station. Keep paying your ___ing consultants to make minor tweaks while the whole ship is sinking.

Can't wait until every station in town is just a repeater for a national channel.
 
I only listen to ZLX once in a great while now, it used to be the only station I would keep on. They are a classic rock station, they really can't do anything that hasn't been done. I wish they would get rid of the wacky morning show format, and just play more music. If i want to hear talk, I'll put on a talk station that does it right.
 
GovtMule1979 said:
I only listen to ZLX once in a great while now, it used to be the only station I would keep on. They are a classic rock station, they really can't do anything that hasn't been done. I wish they would get rid of the wacky morning show format, and just play more music. If i want to hear talk, I'll put on a talk station that does it right.
Well, they can play new music by classic rock acts, which they do from time to time.
They are playing the new Rush song, which sticks out like a sore thumb on their format.
They can also play more classic rock acts that they don't presently play, or only play a song or two, for whatever reason: Elvis Costello, Chicago, Moody Blues, ELO, Ringo, Todd Rundgren, etc...
Elvis C, and Chicago are two acts which I can't understand why they aren't played....both classic, both popular, yet Bryan Adams gets more airtime than both of them combined ???
 
Smoke said:
Eli Polonsky said:
They're afraid that for every listener that might say "I haven't heard that song in a while", that perhaps a hundred listeners might say "I don't know this song. I'm changing the station. Maybe WROR is playing something I know right now".

And there is a whole generation of listeners who are turning off the radio entirely because of those tight playlists. If you really only want to hear the same 80 songs over and over again then an iPod is what you want, not the radio.

Got news for you... that generation, who enjoyed the broad, deep playlists of late 1960's "underground" FM rock radio and of 1970's progressive album rock radio, ALREADY turned off from commercial radio a long time ago... twenty to thirty years ago... they went to their record and tape collections and shows on public/college radio stations... then they added CD's, satellite radio and internet radio... and more recently iPods, and perhaps eventually some HD-2 stations... and conventional commercial stations throwing in some lesser-known songs is NOT going to lure them back. That audience turned off commercial radio for good years ago, and if the major stations try throwing in more than a very occasional lesser-known track nowadays, they'll only alienate their current hit-focused listener core.

WROR tried it for half a year in 2001. They called the format "Timeless Rock And Roll Classics". They mixed deeper late 60's and 70's AOR tracks into their Classic Hits format, and they played an entire popular album all the way through every evening. They were playing some songs I hadn't heard (on commercial radio) since the heydays of WBCN and WCOZ. I and a very small handful of deeper music afficionados thought it was really cool, but their ratings took a sharp nose dive, and kept going down after half a year of the format. All they did was alienate their current core of Classic Hits listeners, without successfully luring any of the old 60's/70's AOR audience to try coming back to commercial radio. That former audience had no idea it was even happening. When they went back to their narrow, repetitive Classic Hits format (to the present), their ratings came right back up, and have since surpassed WZLX's consistently.

Charles Laquidara tried it when he was moved from WBCN to WZLX in the mid-90's. At first, WZLX let him play some of the music he used to play on WBCN in the 70's that WZLX no longer normally played. But, their morning ratings went consistently down for the year or two that they let him do that! When they made Charles stick to their usual playlist for his last couple of years there, his ratings came back up! He was no longer alienating their younger current Classic Rock listeners with cuts that, to them, weren't well known, and Charles' older listeners who had followed him through the years still stuck with him for his personality, despite the playlist that bored them. When Charles left WZLX, the last remaining bastion of that audience left WZLX forever, and left commercial radio in Boston as well.

A small (but very faithful and supportive) cult of listeners from the AOR heydays listen to my bi-weekly "Lost & Found" 60-'s/70's show on volunteer MIT college station WMBR, which doesn't have to worry about accruing mainstream ratings. I play some of the music you may have heard on WBCN or WCOZ in the late 60's or 70's, but has since been dropped from commercial radio. (I alternate the show bi-weekly with a former WCOZ DJ, Larry Miller). We purposely don't play the songs which are currently overplayed on commercial classic stations, though we often play deeper, neglected cuts from the same major artists. Occasionally some of our listeners may call requesting some of the overplayed commercial hits, and I have to tell them "Sorry, we don't play that song because it's still played every day on WZLX, WROR, etc... but I'll play another great track by that artist that you haven't heard in a while", and they usually say, "Well, I didn't know that song is still played every day, because I haven't turned the dial up into the commercial band for twenty-five years!!! ...But, when I was tuning around the public radio stations on the lower end as I usually do nowadays, I stumbled onto your show, and it brings back what I used to listen to on commercial album rock stations back in the 70's!"

Commercial FM radio has really replaced what AM was decades ago. Mainstream, hit-oriented music for the mainstream audience. FM is the new AM. So, what is the new FM? There doesn't seem to be one such thing. It's now scattered in bits and pieces between satellite radio, non-commercial radio, internet radio, people's iPod's, hard drives and CD collections, and perhaps the beginnings of HD-2 programming.
 
GovtMule1979 said:
I only listen to ZLX once in a great while now, it used to be the only station I would keep on. They are a classic rock station, they really can't do anything that hasn't been done. I wish they would get rid of the wacky morning show format, and just play more music. If i want to hear talk, I'll put on a talk station that does it right.

Exactly how I feel about K&M. I think WZLX would do much better with a music-intensive morning show. Not a bland jockless jukebox like WBOS in the mornings, though. There should still be a strong morning personality, but make it mainly about the music, with someone who is authoritative about the music. There should still be a lot of contests, promotions, etc...but center it around the music, with trivia questions, music and artist features, etc...

Loren & Wally already have the market sown up for bad humor with Classic Hits in the morning, and at least they're seasoned at it. WBCN already has the banal wannabee macho shock-jock talk, and various other talk is covered on many other stations. Boston Classic Rock listeners want to hear Classic Rock, even in the morning.

mcamp said:
They can also play more classic rock acts that they don't presently play, or only play a song or two, for whatever reason: Elvis Costello, Chicago, Moody Blues, ELO, Ringo, Todd Rundgren, etc...
Elvis C, and Chicago are two acts which I can't understand why they aren't played....both classic, both popular, yet Bryan Adams gets more airtime than both of them combined ???

I don't get the Bryan Adams thing either, but some of those acts are more associated with other formats than Classic Rock. Elvis Costello is a frequently played staple of AAA stations such as WBOS and WXRV, and his earlier stuff is often played as classic new-wave era stuff in the WFNX alternative rock format. He's more identified as an "alternative" artist than a mainstream Classic Rock artist.

The hits of Chicago, Moody Blues, ELO, Ringo, etc... are mostly poppier sounds, and are more associated with (and played on) Oldies and Classic Hits stations than with Classic Rock which goes for a harder-driven rock sound, and you know they're not going to go digging out their deeper album cuts that may show differently. Rundgren, besides his few hits, is viewed as too musically esoteric. He does have a huge legion of fans, but even so, they're not considered to be a significant enough part of the mainstream Classic Rock audience that they need to appeal to nowadays.
 
Eli Polonsky said:
GovtMule1979 said:
I only listen to ZLX once in a great while now, it used to be the only station I would keep on. They are a classic rock station, they really can't do anything that hasn't been done. I wish they would get rid of the wacky morning show format, and just play more music. If i want to hear talk, I'll put on a talk station that does it right.

Exactly how I feel about K&M. I think WZLX would do much better with a music-intensive morning show. Not a bland jockless jukebox like WBOS in the mornings, though. There should still be a strong morning personality, but make it mainly about the music, with someone who is authoritative about the music. There should still be a lot of contests, promotions, etc...but center it around the music, with trivia questions, music and artist features, etc...

Loren & Wally already have the market sown up for bad humor with Classic Hits in the morning, and at least they're seasoned at it. WBCN already has the banal wannabee macho shock-jock talk, and various other talk is covered on many other stations. Boston Classic Rock listeners want to hear Classic Rock, even in the morning.

mcamp said:
They can also play more classic rock acts that they don't presently play, or only play a song or two, for whatever reason: Elvis Costello, Chicago, Moody Blues, ELO, Ringo, Todd Rundgren, etc...
Elvis C, and Chicago are two acts which I can't understand why they aren't played....both classic, both popular, yet Bryan Adams gets more airtime than both of them combined ???

I don't get the Bryan Adams thing either, but some of those acts are more associated with other formats than Classic Rock. Elvis Costello is a frequently played staple of AAA stations such as WBOS and WXRV, and his earlier stuff is often played as classic new-wave era stuff in the WFNX alternative rock format. He's more identified as an "alternative" artist than a mainstream Classic Rock artist.

The hits of Chicago, Moody Blues, ELO, Ringo, etc... are mostly poppier sounds, and are more associated with (and played on) Oldies and Classic Hits stations than with Classic Rock which goes for a harder-driven rock sound, and you know they're not going to go digging out their deeper album cuts that may show differently. Rundgren, besides his few hits, is viewed as too musically esoteric. He does have a huge legion of fans, but even so, they're not considered to be a significant enough part of the mainstream Classic Rock audience that they need to appeal to nowadays.
Eli, I totally understand what you're saying, but the consistancy factor of classic rock doesn't make sense.
They play Elton John, Billy Joel, and Bob Seger....they don't play Todd, Chicago, ELO.
They play REM, U2, The Clash, The Pretenders, The Cars....they don't play Elvis, Joe Jackson, Ramones, The Tubes.
They play Bryan Adams, Bon Jovi, Black Crowes...don't play countless 80's acts that could easily fit into their format as the ones I mentioned.
So what it comes down to....there is no logic.
Just an imaginary line drawn in the sand....these songs are classic...these ones are not.
Yes, commercial radio is pretty much [EDIT]....what it comes down to is the perception of what is/was popular/ good, of a new generation of listeners....pretty much a revisionist history.


[EDIT-profanity]
 
Just because somebody tried something years ago, does not mean it would not work now. The audiences are always changing. Counter-program. Even the stuff that is played to death is usually better than the current junk that is out there. Good material endures, and stands the test of time.I do not believe that everybody wants to hear the same limited playlist all of the time. Dump the consultants and the "experts". Get somebody to program the station who has come up through the ranks, and has spent time in the trenches. Use a little imagination. Not a radical departure, but a subtle one. (see my earlier post) Play something that is old enough, to a young audience - to them it is brand new. Look at the ages of people at a live show for classic rock artists. They run the gamut...

Some of the bands mentioned here - Cars, ELO, Moody Blues, Chicago - I've seen them play live, back in the day. They tore the roof off the place.! But if radio only plays the same 2 or 3 singles all of the time, nobody new will ever know that, unless they hear the "deep cuts" (or whatever you choose to call them). Time to use some imagination. If it is done right, it can work...
 
WLYNgm said:
Just because somebody tried something years ago, does not mean it would not work now. The audiences are always changing. Counter-program. Even the stuff that is played to death is usually better than the current junk that is out there. Good material endures, and stands the test of time.I do not believe that everybody wants to hear the same limited playlist all of the time. Dump the consultants and the "experts". Get somebody to program the station who has come up through the ranks, and has spent time in the trenches. Use a little imagination. Not a radical departure, but a subtle one. (see my earlier post) Play something that is old enough, to a young audience - to them it is brand new ... Time to use some imagination. If it is done right, it can work...

Hey, you've got two stations at your disposal. Why don't you try launching a prototype "deeper tracks" type of Classic Rock show simulcast on WLYN and WAZN and see if it will get any ratings? I know it's tough to market rock music on AM mono signals nowadays, but no one else would be playing what you're playing, and if you go HD, more people will soon have HD radios that will sound good on AM in HD stereo... and the two signals together cover a good chunk of the Boston market, especially in the daytime.
 
Interesting idea. Our company is not set up to work that way, however. We do strictly brokered time here. Our current programming is in several different foreign languages (a niche audience), but that is not a requirement. We have had some discussion about bringing a liberal talk radio format to WAZN, but, so far, it has not happened. (it would not be Air America, though, in any form...) This is ongoing...

WLYN ceased stereo programming a while back, and will not return to it. (see an earlier post) Broadcasting in HD, on either station, is not in the works at this time. Maybe someday in the future...
 
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