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Petition for frequencies

J

JimmyJames

Guest
I was hoping someone in here could help me out.

I'm getting conflicting stories about filing a petition for a new frequency. The way I'm told is this.

I file a petition on a frequency that I believe to be technically "in the clear" for a specific location. Then, when the FCC allows bids for CPs, I and anyone else who wants to and qualifies can bid on it at auction.

However, what I'm conflicted on is how to file. One person tells me that it costs a ton of money to file as it's not a standardized process and that you have to pay a fee to do so. Someone else tells me that I can petition it and I am not responsible for anything financially until the bidding is opened.

So, is it possible to petition for a frequency to be allocated to a town inexpensively, or will I end up paying the FCC thousands to file a petition for a station before they're even allowing me to bid to actually construct it? That procedure doesn't make a lot of sense to me, frankly.
 
you will have to show the freq will work,file a petition to have it added to the table of allotments.that will take awhile.you will have to pay a eng consultant to run the study and might need a attorney who is familiar with the FCC filings.If it's added to the table a filing window will come up(may take years)then the old auction trick,those with the bucks get the GOOD freq's.good luck
 
a party who finds a channel in an area that they would like to serve must then petition the FCC to "allot" the channel to a specific community that they want to serve. That proposal is processed by the FCC's staff and, if acceptable, placed on public notice when other parties can comment on the proposal or file counterproposals suggesting the use of the frequency at some other location. Once the Commission reviews any comments, they will decide whether to allot the channel. If and when an allotment is made, it still isn't ready for application. Instead, the FCC saves new allotments and periodically puts out lists of these new allotments available for application - a "window" notice as a precursor to a possible auction. Interested parties can then file with the FCC indicating interest in the channel and, if more than one person expresses interest in the channel (which virtually always happens), the channel will be auctioned to the highest bidder (though new entrants do get some bidding credits). All told, the process can take several years from the discovery of the available channel to the award of the construction permit. LONG PROCESS
 
Good info. What I'm really confused about is how to actually do the "petition" portion of this. I'm familiar with what happens during the auctioning process, but I can't seem to find clear directions on formulating and filing the petition, which is something I'd like to get started with.
 
Honestly, you DON’T want to know about the FCC’s fees for just accepting the applications so, I’ll send you a link to their press release on the subject:

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2008/db0214/DOC-280238A1.pdf and they are not “cheap”. What you are looking for is the first fee on the list (on page EIGHT) for a:

NEW OR MAJOR CHANGE 301 & 159** $4,005.00/ application MVT CONSTRUCTION PERMIT

Writing this as an engineer who prepares petitions just such as that which you wish to file, I wanted you to see it directly from the FCC. The FCC’s fees to just ACCEPT your applications make me feel guilty for charging even enough to feed my family for doing the actual preparation work and THAT is MUCH more involved than what the FCC does. We do the work while they look it over and say, “OK” or “No way.” But, in order to grant it, we have to be certain that it’s 100% correct and formatted EXACTLY as they want it.

By the way, there is NO "duplicateable" format for a petition to amend the table of allotments. Each one is done on an individual basis and is almost always unique in one way or another. The preparation of one is not for the faint of heart and I cannot honestly recommend that you should attempt this without proper engineering to "get it right". Now, I also must add this: You can do it yourself. I do them all the time but, the software I use cost me almost $20k and there are several hundred per month required for database updates.

Has this frightened you yet?
 
For an example of a PRM (petition for rulemaking) see:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519815413

This is one filed by Charles Crawford who tried to close every open spot in Texas and Oklahoma.
It will give you some idea about what is required.

I believe that these days, you must pay the FCC Fom 301 application fee with the petition
I think its $2,750 as best as I can tell (MRR).
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-131A1.pdf
Tru okie's list is more current, but I still think its $2,750 MRR (see footnote 11)
That was done to stop bulk filings.

Then, if the allocation is approved, you will still have to go through the auction process, and if you don't win, you will have to beg the commission to return your fees.

Contact me privately, with Lat, Long, and Channel, and I will tell you if its currently available.
 
slim101 said:
For an example of a PRM (petition for rulemaking) see:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519815413

This is one filed by Charles Crawford who tried to close every open spot in Texas and Oklahoma.
It will give you some idea about what is required.

Now, let me qualify what I'm saying by stating that I have not looked at the abovementioned petition:

They are not all the same and what works in one community may not work for another! But, it certainly never hurts to look and to copy when the circumstances are similar.

slim101 said:
I believe that these days, you must pay the FCC Fom 301 application fee with the petition
I think its $2,750 as best as I can tell (MRR).
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-131A1.pdf
Tru okie's list is more current, but I still think its $2,750 MRR (see footnote 11)
That was done to stop bulk filings.

Honestly, I leave this part up to bookkeeping so, I could be wrong as well. (These "filing windows" can cause any and all of us to be forced to completely re-learn everything every few years due to the amount of time between filing windows of a particular type.) But, I'm pretty sure it's the higher figure these days... But, don't hold me to it!

slim101 said:
Then, if the allocation is approved, you will still have to go through the auction process, and if you don't win, you will have to beg the commission to return your fees.

IF you get them back at all...


slim101 said:
Contact me privately, with Lat, Long, and Channel, and I will tell you if its currently available.

I'm not trying to doubt you or question you but, I hope you're using something better than the available "online free searches" as I've found that these things do not take into consideration such things as terrain obstructions and situations in which §73.215 can be invoked...
 
okie...I agree with all of your cautions to Jimmy! (but it can be done without a lawyer)

I'm not trying to doubt you or question you but, I hope you're using something better than the available "online free searches" as I've found that these things do not take into consideration such things as terrain obstructions and situations in which §73.215 can be invoked...

I use the most current CDBS database, some trigonometry, and a mapping OCX.
Its as accurate as the CDBS...for what that is worth.
 
slim101 said:
okie...I agree with all of your cautions to Jimmy! (but it can be done without a lawyer)

Personally, I think that we are all much better off anytime we can avoid the "aid" of lawyers! (I've seen perfectly "workable" situations become worsened by greedy, money hungry lawyers but, that's for the book that I'll eventually be writing on greed and corruption... ;D

slim101 said:
I use the most current CDBS database, some trigonometry, and a mapping OCX.
Its as accurate as the CDBS...for what that is worth.

That is a fairly effective method and my hat's off to you for having the time and patience. But, I'm sure there could still be a problem or two if terrain seriously comes into play. (But, I would die if I had to prepare any of these things "the old fashioned way" again!)

If I may be of any assistance, feel free to contact me privately and I'll do what I can.
 
In the old days :

You found a frequency then applied then someone with cash would lawyer you to death and you don't get the gold you prospected for.

Commercial channels are the reason the recent fcc release about city of license. Filing fees were in place because people kept finding open frequencies and it was too much a pain in the but for staff.

non com applicants can locate non com frequencies and justify by petition the frequency is needed due to lack of first service and a commercial channel can be allocated as a non com. Don't plan on making it commercial though as this is seen by staff as disingenuous.
 
This tool is intended to locate commercial channels only--which are based on minimum mileage separations (well, specific kilometer separations--metric world now). Hence Channel 6 is not an issue.(see the other posts on the new channel finder tool) Section 73.215 (?memory) allows stations to be short-spaced, but there is a coverage penalty.You can short-space a new station--I own one that was built that way; but you need to demonstrate a workable site that is not short-spaced and will cover the city of license.

There are other issues involved besides the technical requirements. You must demonstrate that the proposed city of license is a "community" and not just a dot on the map. For example, that there are identifiable boundaries of the community,thereby allowing the Commission to determine the area you need to cover with a city grade--70 dbu--signal. That this "town" has some kind of government, and some reason for existence; e.g., it is a county seat, or the county high school is there, or this is the main shopping district for the area.

It's unlikely that you can find a channel in or near any kind of population center. Though with stations being moved into the metro areas opportunities will arise near the smaller cities. If so, then you may have to make a "Tuck" showing--no, get your mind out of the gutter, refers to Faye and Richard Tuck. That is, you will have to show that your proposed city of license is independent of the major community in that metro area. Again, a showing is needed for the Commission: Is this town independently governed? Separate post office? How much commercial activity? Anything else special about the community, such as a major mall, a college located in this town?

I own two FM's. I located the channels, assigned them, prepared the applications, and built them (with a partner) from scratch. Don't think I could do that now. Too many roadblocks.

---A first phone with a JD.
 
TomT said:
This tool is intended to locate commercial channels only--which are based on minimum mileage separations (well, specific kilometer separations--metric world now). Hence Channel 6 is not an issue.(see the other posts on the new channel finder tool) Section 73.215 (?memory) allows stations to be short-spaced, but there is a coverage penalty.You can short-space a new station--I own one that was built that way; but you need to demonstrate a workable site that is not short-spaced and will cover the city of license.

And yet, we haven't even brushed upon the wonders of the directional antennae, yet... What possibilities and fun and expenses!
 
I just wanted to toss a couple pennies in this pond. It wont change any of the good advice and truth already given here, but I dont get to relate my experience with the system and how is works to many people who understand it end to end. I, as a lone individual, did file a petition to ammend the FM table of allotments during the 80/90 frenzy. I bought a complete channel study from a DC data firm for around 200 bucks and went through it channel by channel until I found one that would work. I mimicked the form of other petitions and filed one. To my surprise, another group had filed for the same frequency in a nearby town. Since my petition was filed before the other one appeared in the federal register, but after the papers were physically fiiled, the FCC reduced my petition to the status of a counterproposal and allowed it to stand alongside the professionally prepared petition. Mine was not too shabby, I knew the presentation had to be professional. The other guys had used a DC consulting firm, and a DC communications law firm. I used an IBM Selectric II, lettracet letters, and what I had learned in college and observed in the real world by doing some freelance contract work for an engineering consulting firm. Geeze, now all of a sudden, I had to not only learn how to do a petition, which was a big complicated thing to me at the time, I had to learn how to prepare and submit comments by a deadline, and follow all or the legal protocol. After that, reply comments that addressed these legal wolves from DC trying to rip my petition to shreds......my bum was puckered but I was determined....actually I was too naive to know I could not do it. I looked for legal angles, researched cases, tried to find how they did it in the past...as bad luck would have it, a tornado had recently ripped the city where I wanted to put the FM. The fat cats in the other group owned an AM in that other nearby town, and it went off the air because they lost power and did not provide any emergency service during the hours following the disaster. I summed up their shoddy record of station operation as politely as I could in legalspeak, and used the lack of emergency communication service as a compelling need to the city to which I wanted the FM allocated. It had an AM daytimer, but the tornado struck right before sunset. There were other arguements too, about first fulltime aural service yada yada college book stuff that does not really hold water in the real world unless you are in Alaska...The day of the hearing comes up and I WON.... I BEAT THEM!. I wish I could have seen the look on their faces. I could tell by the tone of their reply comments that they gave me little credibility and sort of made the assumption that they would get the allocation because they always did. All of my filings were solid, conformed to the format of other successful petitions, my arguements were based on fact and addressed the priorities of FCC allocation policy at the time. It was another 3 years before the license was granted, but I did get in on it with partners who owned the daytime AM in the town where I wanted it. It can take much longer than that. That same group came up against us for the license and lost again...and there were other groups that got in on the license application process. It was a protracted and complicated path, but we did finally get the FM. We owned and operated it for a few years and did very well until congress opened the floodgates for really wealthy corporations to own as much as they wanted. What can I say, Clear Channel owns it today.

I agree with everything everyone said....the cost today eliminates many passionate people who would do a great service to their communities. I would encourge emerging broadcasters to embrace the internet and other new delivery platforms. Owning an RF radiation license and a tall stack of steel are an investment of dimishing returns today. Its enough for people grounded in reality, but not enough return for money grubbing MBA pencil necks with huge corporate financial infrastructure to feed.

My point in all of this is to not give up that real dream of broadcasting. The manner in which it is accomplished is changing and will continue to change. The next wave of real media barons are getting started today with tons of inexpensive new technology. I dont know where it will all lead. I do know that you no longer need a license to reach people. (Facebook, Yahoo, and Google were all kitchen table projects at one time not too long ago) I also know that for most of us, there is a sort of magic that happens when we toss RF out with thoughts and entertainment piggybacked on it. Just like the gasoline car has been mandated to change by the world around it, there is another way of getting what we have to everyone who wants it. Take your hopes and run with them, dont quit, but dont be so narrowsighted, as to think FM is the only way to do what you want to do. I wish it was, but I am also still excited about doing whatever is next. No matter what it is, working with it will be way cooler than what those MBA guys do. They will still probably make more money, but we will never get tired of doing what we do.
 
My dream is to one day own a radio station (or stations) and a TV station (or stations) and this is all really valuable to read. I've done most of the engineering half of a proposal for an FM where I live, but the legal side is a whole separate matter.

What are the fees these days for actual filing with the FCC?

I'd wonder what it would take as far as the money in the auction. I mean, I'm in a rural area, but I'd be really concerned about some religious broadcaster trying to outbid me on my proposed little signal in the middle of nowhere.

I imagine the tower and building it out would be easy next to fighting with the FCC over it. Even managing to convince the residents of the county to let me build a tower doesn't seem like it'd be as difficult as tackling the FCC, and this is a group that's run three or four separate things out of the county before.

Again, very useful thread! Thanks for it!

- Trip
 
In this day and age, more practical to buy an existing station than to build one.

Why?

1. The band is full. Any open FM frequencies are likely in areas of little~ or no population.
2. For TripinVA--parts of western east Virginia, (and eastern West Virginia ;-)!) are in the quiet zone around Green Bank NRAO. While it may look like there are open frequencies available there, it is because it is a radio quiet zone to protect the radio observatory.
3. Pioneers are the folks with arrows in their backs. The FCC's present set-up requires those proposing new FM stations to bear all the expense of research, preparation of the petition, & payment of an up-front fee. Then they take the channel and auction it to the highest bidder. Eventually, that is. The process could take ten years before a station is on the air.
4. Buying an existing station you have some existing business to keep you going, and the time frame is much shorter--90 days to six months from handshake to transfer in many cases.

I will grant you that this puts a giant barrier up given the amount of capital that must be raised. Also, until the large groups decay and break up (which appears to be happening) there are not that many individual stations on the market.

P.S: I am aware of one AM/FM combo and perhaps another stand-alone FM, that are for sale in WV/Va area (no, nothing I have a personal interest in). E-mail me for details.
 
I must confess, I'm still unclear how big a check I'm writing to the FCC if I file one of these things? Anyone know the exact amount?
 
No, the opening I found is not related to the quiet zone. It's related to another station that moved away. =)

- Trip
 
Looks like $2,475 for the petition for rulemaking, then an additional $3,210 for the Form 301 if you win the bidding on the subsequent auction. In addition to whatever the amount was you have to bid to get to this point.
 
In the last auction I looked at, the starting bid was $1,500. I think there was a C2 or C3 allotment to someplace like Flagler, CO that my have sold for that. But, keep in mind that this if Flagler, CO. The population of the whole county is less than ten thousand. Colorado Population Density (Wikipedia)

Also worth noting that any "minor changes" to your application once you reach the construction permit stage (for example, you need to move your tower a small distance) will cost about $800 if memory serves.
 
You can usually amend the CP application without paying an additional fee. Once the covering license is issued, then a minor change will probably require an additional fee. Had to pay a fee to move the tower 4 feet.

Also, if you are going to put up a new tower there are additional charges (more in the nature of bribes) that will needed under NPA to historical societies, Indian tribes, etc.
 
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