Philadelphia - We're Number 8!

[RadioPhillyFan]

Wired 96.5 can actually reach parts of Baltimore crystal clear; I think the road is called 695? Cuts off there.
And, I believe it's partly Arbitron bias, they're located in Maryland, who's had it out for PA since the start of time.
Philly should be #4 or #5 - half of what you mentioned is considered the Philadelphia Metro. Because Baltimore/
Washington shouldn't be combined; or you should combine Atlantic City with Philadelphia.

 

[aindik]

I can't tell, but if your post implies that Arbitron combines Washington and Baltimore into one market, that would be incorrect. Baltimore is its own market.

 

[mcradiofree]

I dont understand the population classification either. The fact remains that the Philadelphia radio signals are so strong that they reach Wilmington,Reading,Trenton,Vineland,AC Cape May,Allentown,Lancaster.

You can still have your submarket designation but why Philadelphia doesnt get credit for reaching those submarkets quite frankly does not make any sense. I was listening to MGK, 97.5,1060 up at Jack Frost in the Poconos this weekend. Crystal Clear signal all the way up.

Because their own radio markets are categorized by the ADI (are of dominant influence) not MSA. The population of those cities and surrounding burbs (Lancaster, Wilmington, Trenton, Allentown, Reading etc.)
are not included in the population count for Arbitron purposes and, rightfully so. Local advertising would be non-existent otherwise. Lots of Balto stations ahow up in the York, PA market also. There is always going to be that overlap.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

Wilmington, Camden, Trenton, Vineland are within a half hour of Philly, they're part of Philadelphia's suburbs. It's wrong to consdier DC/Balto a market and not Philly/Trent/Wilm.

 

[aindik]

Wilmington, Camden, Trenton, Vineland are within a half hour of Philly, they're part of Philadelphia's suburbs. It's wrong to consdier DC/Balto a market and not Philly/Trent/Wilm.

Again: DC/Balto is not a market. DC is market No. 7 and Baltimore is market No. 21, and I don't think they have any overlapping counties.

 

[Slinky]

Again: DC/Balto is not a market. DC is market No. 7 and Baltimore is market No. 21, and I don't think they have any overlapping counties.

This is correct. Baltimore and DC markets have no overlap. RadioPhillyFan has been told this many times but is still calling them the same market for some reason.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

There's no way DC has as much as Arbitron says, and there's no way Baltimore is 21.

Add me to the list of non-believers for Arbitron.

 

[aindik]

There's no way DC has as much as Arbitron says, and there's no way Baltimore is 21.

Add me to the list of non-believers for Arbitron.

"DC" includes many counties in Virginia and Maryland. But it doesn't include the same counties that are included in "Baltimore."

 

[Slinky]

There's no way DC has as much as Arbitron says, and there's no way Baltimore is 21.

Add me to the list of non-believers for Arbitron.

Yes, if only there were some way to verify Arbitron's population numbers. Oh wait, there is: http://www.census.gov/

Add up the numbers for the DC Metro counties. The list of counties is on Arbitron's site.

The census numbers will be higher because Arbitron is 6+ only, but they will be close.

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, if only there were some way to verify Arbitron's population numbers. Oh wait, there is: http://www.census.gov/

Actually, Arbitron gets its data from Claritas, which is a reprocessor of Census Bureau data (and the biggest and best... used by most American marketers). Claritas adjusts for some external sources as well as the annual Census Bureau ACS study and comes up with a number that is updated in October in Arbitron markets.

Also take into account, besides the fact that PPM markets are 6+ and not 0+, that Arbitron metros are radio markets, not the Census definitions of metros.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

With all that taken into account,

How is the nations forth largest city and metro AND city, surpassed by a city with less then a half million people?

I mean, even Pittsburgh, which happens to be the eighteenth largest, is bigger then DC.

Baltimore is certainly a larger city then DC, and the stations there have always been more capable then DC's and have more reach. Why not Baltimore be number 7?

 

[fybush]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand here.

The radio markets designated by Arbitron are determined largely on the basis of what the radio stations in those markets want to have included. Businesses in smaller communities such as Atlantic City or the Lehigh Valley or Wilmington or Lancaster generally can't afford the rates charged by Philadelphia stations, they don't much benefit from the reach of those stations anyway. (How many people in Pottstown are going to drive to the Jersey shore to buy a car, or a sofa, or a sandwich?), and their local stations provide the reach they need at a more reasonable cost.

So the Philadelphia stations want ratings that focus on the core of the market that they sell to - Philadelphia, Montgomery., Delaware, Bucks, Chester in PA, Gloucester and Camden and Burlington in NJ.

The DC market is different because...well, because DC isn't Philly. There's not a ring of small markets 40 or 50 miles out from DC to compare to the ring of small markets around Philadelphia. Go 40 or 50 or even 60 miles into Virginia, in particular, and you're still in areas where the commuting patterns and radio listening habits tie in closely to Washington.

And of course the size of the actual center city in any given market is a red herring, heavily dependent on local political history. The city of Philadelphia encompasses all of Philadelphia County. The city of Baltimore is a politically separate entity from Baltimore County, and the county now has a larger population than the city. Maryland allows independent cities; Pennsylvania does not. None of that is in the least bit relevant to the designation of radio market boundaries.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

Now THAT is logical, it's basically the same reason SF is so high.

 

[davideduardo]

With all that taken into account,

How is the nations forth largest city and metro AND city, surpassed by a city with less then a half million people?

Look at the TV DMA's... Nielsen's version of metros. When TV markets were extended via Community Antenna TV services... now just called "cable" we saw the Salt Lake City market include big pieces of Montana and Wyoming, too.

Arbitron originally create the Metropolitan Survey Area based on a set of criteria that started with a home county and then added surrounding counties to the extent that a certain percentage of listening was to the home county stations and a certain percentage of commuting was towards other parts of the metro.

Of course, even if a bunch of stations have signals farther out, when there is a big adjacent market, with more listening to its stations, that county falls to the "other" market. Think Baltimore vs. DC. or Hartford vs. Springfield or Dayton vs. Cincinnati.

Once markets are established, there is the possibility of adding or consolidating metros... in 1980, the Ft Lauderdale and the Miami metros were combined into one MSA... but only after all local subscribers had voted (I was there as GM of WHTT-1260 in Miami).

In the majority of cases, although far from all of them, the Census / OMB definition of a Metropolitan Statistical Area matches the Arbitron Metropolitan Survey Area. That is because many trade areas are wheel and spoke in nature... with commerce and population revolving around the central city area and the larger AM and most C or B FMs covering the area, thus making the Census and Arbitron areas match.

When a county no longer qualifies, it may be dropped... Arbitron redefines counties in MSAs annually and issues a list of changes.

 

[davideduardo]

Now THAT is logical, it's basically the same reason SF is so high.

The San Francisco market was basically defined long ago by the coverage and listenership of KGO, KFRC, KCBS, KGO and KSFO many years ago when AM was dominant and the listening from Santa Rosa to San Jose qualified that entire area... 9 counties... to be an MSA.

 

[ixnay]

Maryland allows independent cities;

So does Virginia (plenty of them), now that Mr. Fybush mentioned the Old Dominion.

Five VA ic's are in the DC metro (Alexandria, Fairfax, Falls Ch., Manassas, and Manassas Pk.). Six if you count Fredericksburg although that's 50 miles out from DC, almost halfway to Richmond.

Rand McNally always takes care in their road atlases to use the notation "Independent city not part of any county" where applicable.

ixnay

 

[davideduardo]

Maryland allows independent cities; Pennsylvania does not. None of that is in the least bit relevant to the designation of radio market boundaries.

I've scanned the descriptions of the PPM markets and a handful of diary markets, and it appears that Arbitron always includes independent cities along with the population of the "container" county and never includes a city unless the containing county is in the MSA.

For example, in DC Fairfax, the city, is included because Fairfax, the county, is also part of the metro. Same with Arlington, Falls Church, Manassas Park, etc.

I can't find anything in Arbitron's Purple Book (description of methodology) or other sample and methodology publications that specifies the procedure, but since the Arbitron market definition system is geography and county based, it's certainly logical to include any jurisdictions inside a county.

 

[DToTheJ]

...if your post implies that Arbitron combines Washington and Baltimore into one market, that would be incorrect. Baltimore is its own market.

Does this mean R-I needs to split their Washington/Baltimore board?

 

[donta1974]

What is the difference between the 9th,8th, and 7th largest radio markets my guess is not that much. Its just a thing where radio people can say hey I work in the 8th largest market and it looks good on a resume.

 

[observer2]

Washington is not the most populous part of the metropolitan area. Fairfax County, Virginia is. Other surrounding counties have greater population than Washington proper, but none so much as Fairfax County. It is not like Philadelphia, don't think of it in those terms. Independent Fairfax City, Manassas City, etc aren't much of a factor.

Washington has just over 600,000 people. Montgomery County Md and Fairfax County VA each have about 1 million. Prince George's County MD has over 800,000.

The population is largely driven by sprawling newer suburbs.

This is also why the WNEW and WJFK coverage issues are so important there. If you have a full market signal, you have a significant advantage.