The old 97.5 PST signal was a monster. I could hear it all the way from the Poconos down to Maryland and Cape May and it was listenable in NYC. It was the de-facto CHR everyone at my high school listened to. It was a true CHR back on 97.5. Miss the good ol' days of 97.5 PST and 94.5 WNJO.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Philly Frequencies
- Thread starter XCountry285
- Start date
I'm not sure when WPST went on the air, but I believe WDAC has been on the air, as a religious station, since the last 1940's.
I must correct myself. I went to WDAC's website and it was 1959 when they first went on the air as Lancaster's first commercial FM station, the same year that Wilmington's WJBR became the nation's first FM stereo station. I got confused with WVCH- AM 740 Chester, which started Christian broadcasting in 1949. There was an other religious station, I believe from the Trenton area at 94.5 that eventually became a pop station. In either case they definitely caused poor reception for me listening to WDAC. It would be great if WDAC put a repeater in the Wilmington area, but as they are a commercial religious station vs a non-comm that can ask for donations, it wouldn't help their bottomline to do that here. Now they could start a new station here like they did with, I believe the calls are, WBYO in Boyertown. But in today's radio world and our economy that's not going to happen.
Why would WPST put a translator in Wilmington? It's a Trenton station. It's 2011, guys. For those outside the stations' respective broadcast areas, both WDAC and WPST have online streams.
I agree and have listened online, at home. Unfortunately, my employer has the computer network set up to NOT allow radio listening on the computer. So whatever your personal radio can get is what you get, or I would do a bunch of listening on line to various stations including WDAC.
I don't know that religious stations are given preference in getting repeaters. MY GUESS IS,all non-comm public (NPR) and college stations, as well as non-comm religious stations that are requesting repeaters. So it's not just non-comm religious stations requesting repeaters. For example Temple Univ's WRTI (Classical Music / Jazz) has translators all over PA, NJ, and two in Delaware. Commercial stations don't see an advantage as the non-comms do. If I'm listening to WRTI in Wilmington or Dover, or in Atlantic City, or Harrisburg, I can make a donation to keep their programming playing in my area. An advertiser in Philly doesn't care about attracting listeners from Wilmington, Dover, Atlantic City, or Harrisburg, so they'd not want to pay more to have useless ads airing in those cities. That's why commercial stations don't do the repeater thing. If WDAC were non-comm, then they possibly would consider a repeater for the Wilmington/Newark DE area, but it makes no sense as they are a commercial station. Same with Trenton's WPST.
I agree and have listened online, at home. Unfortunately, my employer has the computer network set up to NOT allow radio listening on the computer. So whatever your personal radio can get is what you get, or I would do a bunch of listening on line to various stations including WDAC.
I don't know that religious stations are given preference in getting repeaters. MY GUESS IS,all non-comm public (NPR) and college stations, as well as non-comm religious stations that are requesting repeaters. So it's not just non-comm religious stations requesting repeaters. For example Temple Univ's WRTI (Classical Music / Jazz) has translators all over PA, NJ, and two in Delaware. Commercial stations don't see an advantage as the non-comms do. If I'm listening to WRTI in Wilmington or Dover, or in Atlantic City, or Harrisburg, I can make a donation to keep their programming playing in my area. An advertiser in Philly doesn't care about attracting listeners from Wilmington, Dover, Atlantic City, or Harrisburg, so they'd not want to pay more to have useless ads airing in those cities. That's why commercial stations don't do the repeater thing. If WDAC were non-comm, then they possibly would consider a repeater for the Wilmington/Newark DE area, but it makes no sense as they are a commercial station. Same with Trenton's WPST.
MikefromDelaware said:
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Absolutely, there is no preference for religious groups in obtaining translators.
There is a preference for non-commercial licensees (either religious or secular, like WRTI) in that they're allowed to own translators outside the predicted coverage area of the station they relay. WPST could have a translator in Dover, but it would have to belong to a third-party organization & couldn't accept financial support from WPST. It's not likely there's anyone down there who wants the WPST programming enough to spend the $$$.
I was looking at Radio Locator and their maps, show WDAC using 19Kw radiated power vs WPST's 50Kw radiated power. What I find interesting is both are on 94.5, but both primary signals cover about the same distance, around 60-70 miles per the maps. I'm guessing, that there's less electrical/electonic interference between Lancaster and its surrounding area vs Trenton/Philly and its surrounding area so WDAC can get as much coverage with far less wattage than WPST.
When I was broadcasting on Armed Forces Radio (AFRN 1490) at Eielson AFB, Alaska during the Viet Nam War, our station used 50w of power sent up a copper wire running up a telephone pole and could be picked up clearly 30 miles away in Fairbanks. At that time, 1972, there were only 5 AM stations on the dial spread far apart. The AM dial had no static at all, like an FM dial. There was only one FM station at U of Alaska Fairbanks, NPR. Only 3 TV stations, 2 commercial (NBC/ABC, CBS/ABC) and 1 PBS station at U of AK. One of the AM's was a 50Kw nondirectional, non-comm religous station KJNP 1170 that at night would broadcast religious programming in Russian since their signal was received in the USSR well at night.
This got me to thinking that this possibly was what it was like in the early 20's and 30's and even the 40's when the radio stations here broadcast at lower power because the signals got out further. Can you imagine what WPHT (WCAU's) projected map would have looked like back in 1930 if they were at 50Kw back then. My guess is, that WCAU as WIP both were using far less power to cover their market. I'm sure there's some historical site where this info would be available. It would be interesting to see how much that has changed since those early years, when WCAU, WIP, WPEN, and WDEL for Wilmington, were the big stations for their respective markets. In 1930 Delaware had only two radio stations, WDEL(since 1922) and the brand new WILM. If I remember correctly what I read one time, there were no other stations in the entire state of Delaware at that time until the late 1940's, when WAMS, WTUX in Wilmington and WDOV in Dover came into being.
Sorry about the side bar, but getting back to the WDAC/WPST issue. One question I wonder is, IF WDAC was allowed by the FCC to boost its radiated power from 19Kw to say 30Kw or even 50Kw, would their primary signal (the red circle on Radio Locator maps) go out further thus covering the Wilmington area, or would WDAC/WPST signals simply clash and fight each other making noise. Neither WDAC or WPST's red circle hits Wilmington. I realize WDAC isn't going to ever do this, but there are plenty of folks here who know the electronics of how radio signals work, etc, and it would be interesting to hear their theoretic thoughts. Thanks !
When I was broadcasting on Armed Forces Radio (AFRN 1490) at Eielson AFB, Alaska during the Viet Nam War, our station used 50w of power sent up a copper wire running up a telephone pole and could be picked up clearly 30 miles away in Fairbanks. At that time, 1972, there were only 5 AM stations on the dial spread far apart. The AM dial had no static at all, like an FM dial. There was only one FM station at U of Alaska Fairbanks, NPR. Only 3 TV stations, 2 commercial (NBC/ABC, CBS/ABC) and 1 PBS station at U of AK. One of the AM's was a 50Kw nondirectional, non-comm religous station KJNP 1170 that at night would broadcast religious programming in Russian since their signal was received in the USSR well at night.
This got me to thinking that this possibly was what it was like in the early 20's and 30's and even the 40's when the radio stations here broadcast at lower power because the signals got out further. Can you imagine what WPHT (WCAU's) projected map would have looked like back in 1930 if they were at 50Kw back then. My guess is, that WCAU as WIP both were using far less power to cover their market. I'm sure there's some historical site where this info would be available. It would be interesting to see how much that has changed since those early years, when WCAU, WIP, WPEN, and WDEL for Wilmington, were the big stations for their respective markets. In 1930 Delaware had only two radio stations, WDEL(since 1922) and the brand new WILM. If I remember correctly what I read one time, there were no other stations in the entire state of Delaware at that time until the late 1940's, when WAMS, WTUX in Wilmington and WDOV in Dover came into being.
Sorry about the side bar, but getting back to the WDAC/WPST issue. One question I wonder is, IF WDAC was allowed by the FCC to boost its radiated power from 19Kw to say 30Kw or even 50Kw, would their primary signal (the red circle on Radio Locator maps) go out further thus covering the Wilmington area, or would WDAC/WPST signals simply clash and fight each other making noise. Neither WDAC or WPST's red circle hits Wilmington. I realize WDAC isn't going to ever do this, but there are plenty of folks here who know the electronics of how radio signals work, etc, and it would be interesting to hear their theoretic thoughts. Thanks !
ok, let's clear this 'power' thing up. we're talking about watt's delivered out the antenna vs. erp. both wdac and wpst have similar coverage with dramatically different numbers, but are classified as 50,000 watt class b. the reason is efficiency of tower height. if you look at those figures again mike, you'll see the haat, height above average terrain, for wdac is 810 feet, way beyond the maximum allowable for a standard class b, so they need to drop their power to compensate. it saves them money, and they get the same coverage as wpst does, which is only at 492 feet haat. but wpst must pump more watts to the antenna bays to get that same coverage.
in comparison, wogl 98.1 is the master of efficiency in the area. classified as a full class b, and superior coverage from pottsville pa to the nj seashore, despite adjacent channels, it is only 9,600 watts! but it's antenna is perched at 1109 feet above average terrain. so it achieves the coverage of 50kW at less than 20% of the power. it's fm guys...the higher the stick, the further it goes.
http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/finder?sr=Y&s=C&call=Wogl
in comparison, wogl 98.1 is the master of efficiency in the area. classified as a full class b, and superior coverage from pottsville pa to the nj seashore, despite adjacent channels, it is only 9,600 watts! but it's antenna is perched at 1109 feet above average terrain. so it achieves the coverage of 50kW at less than 20% of the power. it's fm guys...the higher the stick, the further it goes.
http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/finder?sr=Y&s=C&call=Wogl
amfmsw said:
Which explains why NY FMs can get out as far as they do. The major class Bs broadcast from the top of the ESB. Most of the big NY FMs have about 6,000 watts and cover an area from Princeton, NJ to Bridgeport, CT, the Jersey Shore to Long Island Sound.
radioguy39nj said:amfmsw said:
Which explains why NY FMs can get out as far as they do. The major class Bs broadcast from the top of the ESB. Most of the big NY FMs have about 6,000 watts and cover an area from Princeton, NJ to Bridgeport, CT, the Jersey Shore to Long Island Sound.
Oh they go further than that, they cover from Bordentown, NJ to New Haven, CT. The extra 15 miles each direction is a big difference.
Thank you AMFMSW. Your answer explains a lot.
So by what you explained, if WDAC was allowed to put out 50Kw, because of their higher stick they'd really get out even further possibly taking away some of WPST's primary signal area and probably some of the signal area of another 94.5 further West in PA or South in MD. If I understand correctly, the FCC wants to keep FM stations essentially going about 60-70 miles as their primary signal thus WDAC has to use less power vs WPST with their closer to the ground stick that has to use the 50Kw to cover the same 60-70 miles.
So by what you explained, if WDAC was allowed to put out 50Kw, because of their higher stick they'd really get out even further possibly taking away some of WPST's primary signal area and probably some of the signal area of another 94.5 further West in PA or South in MD. If I understand correctly, the FCC wants to keep FM stations essentially going about 60-70 miles as their primary signal thus WDAC has to use less power vs WPST with their closer to the ground stick that has to use the 50Kw to cover the same 60-70 miles.
MikefromDelaware said:
The Radio Locator maps don't take interference into account. WDAC's higher antenna results in better coverage for the power.
http://www.americanradiohistory.com. The old Radex magazines are most relevant to this query, they contain station lists with powers. WCAU was running 10,000 watts in 1930; WIP was 500 watts. KYW was also 10,000 watts -- but in 1930 it was in Chicago, not Philadelphia. IIRC it moved in 1934. Yes, in 1930 WDEL and WILM were the only stations in Delaware. (there was only one in Wyoming)
If the same methodology had been used in 1930, the WCAU coverage area would show up smaller on the map, due to the lower power. The three coverage areas are defined in terms of predicted signal strength.
However, chances are different methodology would have been used in 1930. Noise-free "Local" coverage might have been had within the 0.5mV/m contour (the area marked as "distant" coverage on today's maps) and strong "distant" coverage in the 0.15mV/m. (today's "fringe" coverage)
to answer mike, in a word, yes.
fm is measured in erp, effective radiated power. all of the class b's i worked at powered the stick between 22kW to 27kW, but had 4 or 5 bays on the top, amplifying the effective radiated power to 50kW. 2 bays have an effiecency of 1, 4 bays x 2 (approx..x the effiency of the feed line), which means you cut your electric bill in half. if you're fortunate to be on top of a mountain...all the better. the plus to being closer to the ground, however, is better building penetration.
older transmitters inhale electricity, especially old AM's. some 1kW output consumed 4kW per hour. WPGR was notorious for making the peco meter look like a gyroscope with the harris mw50, phasor and the 3 towers. it cost about $6000 or more in the summer to operate, and that was daytime only. WIBG 99's original setup with 2 all tube rca ampliphase units, phasors and 5 towers with lighting were like several other persons on payroll. i remember seeing one electric bill there in september for over $10,000, and that was in 1974. thank goodness those were water cooled.
fm is measured in erp, effective radiated power. all of the class b's i worked at powered the stick between 22kW to 27kW, but had 4 or 5 bays on the top, amplifying the effective radiated power to 50kW. 2 bays have an effiecency of 1, 4 bays x 2 (approx..x the effiency of the feed line), which means you cut your electric bill in half. if you're fortunate to be on top of a mountain...all the better. the plus to being closer to the ground, however, is better building penetration.
older transmitters inhale electricity, especially old AM's. some 1kW output consumed 4kW per hour. WPGR was notorious for making the peco meter look like a gyroscope with the harris mw50, phasor and the 3 towers. it cost about $6000 or more in the summer to operate, and that was daytime only. WIBG 99's original setup with 2 all tube rca ampliphase units, phasors and 5 towers with lighting were like several other persons on payroll. i remember seeing one electric bill there in september for over $10,000, and that was in 1974. thank goodness those were water cooled.
Thank you all, lots of good info. I know way more than I did a couple of days go.
I'll also check out www.radioamericanhistory.com.
I'll also check out www.radioamericanhistory.com.
DG, most 50F, 50G's used the 225-300lb 5671 tube in driver and PA, 7 of them with spares if I remember..the filament was 11v @ 285a..a whopping 3100+ watts each. While the 50H switched to the 4cx500A driver and quick to burn 6697 in the PA. Now, it was almost 40 years ago, but I distincly remember the CE Archie Sitchel telling me the xmtr was ordered modified with a 9c21 or 5770 tube for their installation in 1957 from Camden. It is essentially the exact tube internally, but water cooled. We also had a 10g for post sunset operation and back-up. All I do remember was that you could pretty much hold a normal conversation at normal levels in the Engineering Rooms. I don't remember blowers at all. I do remember the proof frequency response of that xmtr was 35 to 16,500 kC +/-2db...wider than today's FM. Thank you for fixing AM, NRSC.
It was a long time ago, maybe Sam or Rene knows.
It was a long time ago, maybe Sam or Rene knows.
amfmsw said:
Not water cooled. Yes, the transmitter room was quite quiet. The board-op engineers actually sat in the engineering/TX room with the DJ/on-air studios on the other side of the glass for each of the studios. So a quiet setting with on-air audio was essential for broadcast operations....On another note, from the DJ studios you can look out behind the engineers to see the part of the first cabinet of the 50kW Ampliphase. In this picture from studio B you can see the engineer and the Ampliphase directly behind the engineer in the foreground. http://hylitradio.com/Hy_Lit_WIBG_Studios.jpg
thanks sam. things get fuzzy. here's a great pic as i remember it. http://broadcastpioneers.com/bp6/wibg74.html
amfmsw said:
Yoooo Fuzzy wuzzy! lol. That photo is pictured on the engineering side of studio A and just peaking in the back is the end cabinet of the 10kw.
I
InSearchOfGear
Guest
Sam Lit said:
- Status