Picked up 104.3 "the ticket" from Miami today... in Elgin, IL

[CMNTMXR57]

I'm sure someone will give some technical answer on atomospheric skip, etc... That's all fine. But around 12:30 - 1PM, today (Sunday), out in my garage, my old Technics home receiver, along with nothing more than a pair of rabbit ears for an antenna, picked up 104.3 "the ticket" out of Miami as clear as a bell for a few seconds. It would then battle with KHits, then finally KHits won out and stuck for the rest of the day.

I could understand if it was another 104.3 (or adajacent frequency, bleeding over), within a couple hundred miles, and if I had some huge mast antenna reaching up to the sky, and if this were an AM frequency, but I think no one here can argue, Miami, Florida is a substantial distance from Elgin, IL, and this was an FM frequency.

So what is going on with the atomosphere to carry an FM that far? I heard it as clear as a bell, they gave their name and then went into a commercial about the Heat.

 

[ksradiogeek]

Its what's called "tropospheric induction", I believe. Its weird too, because my pop station in my area (97.5, Junction City, KS), on certain summer evenings, gets completely knocked out with a station in Chadron, NE. I'm only 50 miles from JC, and Chadron is 578 miles away.

 

[KeithE4]

I'm sure someone will give some technical answer on atomospheric skip, etc... That's all fine. But around 12:30 - 1PM, today (Sunday), out in my garage, my old Technics home receiver, along with nothing more than a pair of rabbit ears for an antenna, picked up 104.3 "the ticket" out of Miami as clear as a bell for a few seconds. It would then battle with KHits, then finally KHits won out and stuck for the rest of the day.

I could understand if it was another 104.3 (or adajacent frequency, bleeding over), within a couple hundred miles, and if I had some huge mast antenna reaching up to the sky, and if this were an AM frequency, but I think no one here can argue, Miami, Florida is a substantial distance from Elgin, IL, and this was an FM frequency.

So what is going on with the atomosphere to carry an FM that far? I heard it as clear as a bell, they gave their name and then went into a commercial about the Heat.

Given the distance from Miami to the Chicago area, I'd say that it's E-Skip rather than Tropo. With Elgin being about 40 miles from downtown Chicago, it's entirely possible for WJMK to be overriden like that. I used to live in Streamwood, not too far from you, and remember getting quite a bit of E-skip that could override the Chicago FM stations.

But usually, E-skip doesn't affect the entire FM band - it usually stops at around 100 MHz, but it's not impossible to go higher either. I worked 2 meter FM stations in Alabama and Georgia from the midwest via E-skip on rare occasions in the '70s and '80s, but I don't remember that type of propagation going into the VHF-Hi TV band at all.

 

[RadioGuy2004]

Just so you know, this station, WAXY-FM, is currently licensed to West Palm Beach, FL, with a CP to move to the Miami-Dade/Broward County line. I think they're still on in mono. Nice catch!

 

[w9wi]

You were listening to a sporadic-E opening. Other stations may have been available, from elsewhere in South Florida or even from the Bahamas and/or Cuba.

There are two phenomena which cause most FM DX.

1. Sporadic E. An ionized layer of the upper atmosphere reflects radio signals. It's pretty much the same thing that causes AM signals to cover vast distances at night. Normally, this layer doesn't work for any frequency higher than international shortwave. However, occasionally and for reasons not fully established by science, it will for brief periods reach much higher frequencies.

Sporadic-E ("Es", "E-skip") always starts on lower frequencies like CB radio and low TV channels 2-6. More intense openings continue into FM. On rare occasions, high TV channels 7-13 may be affected. However, no sporadic-E opening has ever even come close to reaching UHF channels above 14. If you have distant UHF TV, the opening is not sporadic-E.

Sporadic-E is most common in the spring and early summer (i.e., right about now) and in the late morning (around 10:30am) and early afternoon. (around 4:00pm) However, it *can* happen at any time.

Sporadic-E has a *minimum* distance. For FM radio, if the distant station is *closer* than about 500 miles, the opening is not sporadic-E. The maximum distance is about 1,500 miles. (on VERY rare occasions, two openings may "link" allowing 2,000 miles or so) More commonly, openings span distances around 1,000 miles or so.

2. Tropospheric. ("Tropo") Normally, air temperatures in the "troposphere" drop with increasing altitude. If they don't drop as quickly as normal, radio signals may be bent back towards earth. Sometimes, the temperature actually *increases* with altitude.

Tropo may affect any frequency, including all TV channels, including UHF. It may start at higher channels without any opening lower in frequency. It tends to be at its best right around sunrise and in the evening.

There is no minimum distance for tropo. Distances between 100 and 300 miles are probably most common. Anything more than about 500 miles is VERY rare.

 

[Jay Walker]

Speaking of "Tropo"...

Here in North Texas, tropo openings from the gulf are a daily occurrence during the spring and early summer months. Tropo can be so intense, at times local full class C FM stations are literally over-ridden by distant signals. I'm talking about local stations running 100KW (e.r.p.) at HAAT around 1800 feet not Class A low power short stick stations.

As the (former now retired) chief engineer for several CBS FM stations in Dallas, during the spring and early summer months, I always had to calm down the programming dept. when morning drive was effectively trashed by stations out of Houston, San Antonio, Austin, or northern Mexico...

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

As the (former now retired) chief engineer for several CBS FM stations in Dallas, during the spring and early summer months, I always had to calm down the programming dept. when morning drive was effectively trashed by stations out of Houston, San Antonio, Austin, or northern Mexico...

And the havoc played by tropo on TV in this part of the world is vividly shown here:

http://www.rabbitears.info/tvdx/signal_graph/101A67C8/tuner0/KFWD

Compare that with the solid, flat lines of another station from the same distance but not having to fight a co-channel:

http://www.rabbitears.info/tvdx/signal_graph/101A67C8/tuner0/KTXA

The weekly graphs are where the contrast is most apparent.

 

[Jeffrey_T_Mason]

Back in 1999, I was working nights at 92.7 Kiss-FM. Actually, at that point, we were just 92 Kiss-FM, with the WDEK simulcast. This was late Spring / early Summer, as we hadn't moved downtown yet. Our studios were still in Arlington Heights...directly at the base of our WKIE tower. That's why it totally blew me away when over my studio monitors came booming - in crystal clear stereo - 92.7 WKKZ in Dublin, Georgia! I thought we were off the air and some nearby signal was bleeding through. But, as I looked up at the transmitter in the next room, we were at 100%! The skip lasted about 2 minutes, which is how I heard their ID. Crazy.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Generally speaking, there is a minimum in the radiation straight up and straight down from the FM transmitting antenna. Theoretically this is zero, but typical values show about 1/10 the horizontal radiation or 20 dB down. For 3000 watts, it would be 30 watts. It is still remarkable with a circular radiation bay that you could receive the 92.5 signal. It probably had a maximum around 60 dBu.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I heard WWMM 92.7 Arlington Heights in west central Michigan about 175 miles away back in the late 1970s, just booming in with a telescoping whip on a Sony portable.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

If you have a signal indicator that actually measures signal or the voltage controlling the AGC fairly linearly, you can easily see if it is tropo or Sporadic E. Tropo is rock solid to slowly varying, but with Sporadic E the signal meter will bounce all over the place. Usually LED meters and even digital signal meters are logarithmic and will not show marked variations as well. Looking at a d'Arsonval movement S meter will show it best.

 

[CMNTMXR57]

Back in 1999, I was working nights at 92.7 Kiss-FM. Actually, at that point, we were just 92 Kiss-FM, with the WDEK simulcast. This was late Spring / early Summer, as we hadn't moved downtown yet. Our studios were still in Arlington Heights...directly at the base of our WKIE tower. That's why it totally blew me away when over my studio monitors came booming - in crystal clear stereo - 92.7 WKKZ in Dublin, Georgia! I thought we were off the air and some nearby signal was bleeding through. But, as I looked up at the transmitter in the next room, we were at 100%! The skip lasted about 2 minutes, which is how I heard their ID. Crazy.

That's about how long this was. Only a couple minutes, then K-Hits came back through loud and clear.

I figured it had to be something like the tropo-skip or an E-skip technical explanation, but that level of distance, at that frequency, being picked up inside a garage, with nothing more than essentially a rabbit ear antenna...

Hasn't happened again BTW, even when 104.3 gets a little staticy (again more an antenna issue on my end).

BTW, Jeff, don't take down your 80's channel site, I love it for the the jingles and of course the 30 minutes of history.

 

[the golden boy]

A couple of summers ago, I picked up WXRT in Mississippi, as well as other Midwestern stations. It was the first time I ever picked up an FM Chicago station down here.

 

[Time Traveler]

A few summers ago....In 2008....I was clearly pulling in Classic Rock station 106.5-KFMC Fairmont, Mn...a good 1000+ miles away.... 40 miles north of Albany, NY. It was completely overpowering local Class B WPYX-106.5. Since WPYX is a Classic Rock station.....I was assuming that I was listening to it until I started hearing all of these out of town references....and than finally heard a station ID. I'm not a casual listener either. At the time I worked at WPYX. I immediately called the DJ at KFMC....and let him know where I was hearing him! I haven't heard that station pop back in since either...

 

[Unregistered]

CMNT here, having a hard time logging in. It recognizes me, but as soon as hte login screen passes, I'm logged out again. Anyway,

Not to bring an old thread up;

But nearly one year later, same garage (mine), same receiver with the same antenna setup, almost the same time of year, similar weather conditions, and sure enough, it happened again.

Yesterday to be exact. Early afternoon, got the ticket out of Miami.

 

[ftballfan]

CMNT here, having a hard time logging in. It recognizes me, but as soon as hte login screen passes, I'm logged out again. Anyway,

Not to bring an old thread up;

But nearly one year later, same garage (mine), same receiver with the same antenna setup, almost the same time of year, similar weather conditions, and sure enough, it happened again.

Yesterday to be exact. Early afternoon, got the ticket out of Miami.

However, The Ticket has moved south into Miami

 

[Bill_981]

Y'know, that's about the best explanation of E-skip vs Tropo I've seen. I'm making a copy to give to my GM the next time he complains about W. Palm interfering with Orlando. I get it a lot in the springtime mornings. He still thinks there's a problem with our transmitter. Thanks!

You were listening to a sporadic-E opening. Other stations may have been available, from elsewhere in South Florida or even from the Bahamas and/or Cuba.

There are two phenomena which cause most FM DX.

1. Sporadic E. An ionized layer of the upper atmosphere reflects radio signals. It's pretty much the same thing that causes AM signals to cover vast distances at night. Normally, this layer doesn't work for any frequency higher than international shortwave. However, occasionally and for reasons not fully established by science, it will for brief periods reach much higher frequencies.

Sporadic-E ("Es", "E-skip") always starts on lower frequencies like CB radio and low TV channels 2-6. More intense openings continue into FM. On rare occasions, high TV channels 7-13 may be affected. However, no sporadic-E opening has ever even come close to reaching UHF channels above 14. If you have distant UHF TV, the opening is not sporadic-E.

Sporadic-E is most common in the spring and early summer (i.e., right about now) and in the late morning (around 10:30am) and early afternoon. (around 4:00pm) However, it *can* happen at any time.

Sporadic-E has a *minimum* distance. For FM radio, if the distant station is *closer* than about 500 miles, the opening is not sporadic-E. The maximum distance is about 1,500 miles. (on VERY rare occasions, two openings may "link" allowing 2,000 miles or so) More commonly, openings span distances around 1,000 miles or so.

2. Tropospheric. ("Tropo") Normally, air temperatures in the "troposphere" drop with increasing altitude. If they don't drop as quickly as normal, radio signals may be bent back towards earth. Sometimes, the temperature actually *increases* with altitude.

Tropo may affect any frequency, including all TV channels, including UHF. It may start at higher channels without any opening lower in frequency. It tends to be at its best right around sunrise and in the evening.

There is no minimum distance for tropo. Distances between 100 and 300 miles are probably most common. Anything more than about 500 miles is VERY rare.