Pirate station on 102.1 in Pinellas County

[ok walters]

Quote:Let me describe the kind of pirate station that I wouldn't report, or even mention on this site.... it would have a clean signal, be on frequency, have a range of LESS than a few miles, not be running 24/7, not be airing profane content, and not be soliciting advertisers.

LPFMs have a clean signal that only covers a few miles, they are on frequency, do not air profane content, some run full time and some don't - because they are a licensed facilty and have to. Sure is similar to a LPFM - except for actually being legal. If there are no frequencies available then the band is full - and any further stations being added would cause problems.

 

[coolaid213]

There ARE frequencies available, otherwise I wouldn't be able to hear "WKMJ" or any of the other pirates on the air in the area. There would be EVEN MORE frequencies available if Clear Channel wasn't using religious translators to rebroadcast their AM/HD2 signals. The point you keep missing is that it is impossible to get an LPFM, and that's by design. It has nothing to do with frequencies not being available or the applicants not being qualified. This has everything to do with the government protecting the moneyed interests.

I wasn't describing an LPFM, what I was describing is a sensible pirate. As long as there are unjust regulations, there will be those who break them despite the risks. My point all along has been that a pirate isn't helping anyone if his equipment is confiscated and he is locked in jail. If you want to be a pirate - DON'T GET CAUGHT. If you do something stupid and get caught, you're hurting your cause.

 

[Robert Bass]

If you want to be a pirate - DON'T GET CAUGHT. If you do something stupid and get caught, you're hurting your cause.

If you want to run a red light, DON'T GET CAUGHT
If you want to rob a bank, DON'T GET CAUGHT
If you want to murder someone, DON'T GET CAUGHT

R

 

[SarasotaJim]

No ranting here - you are the one talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say you agree that as long as they don't cause problems they should be okay and shouldn't be reported, but in another post you still think they should be prosecuted.

That is simply not so. I did, indeed, say that as long as they don't cause problems they should be left alone. The other post specifically said they should be taken off the air if they do cause problems. If you're going to quote me, at least have the decency to do it correctly.

 

[IckPodcastGuy]

I need to mention something here that I think keeps getting lost in the debate here. In the state of Florida, the FCC doesn't have to come to your house anymore, and the don't have to give you a warning anymore. Since 2005 local police departments are authorized to make raids, because it is now a felony to operate a pirate station. If you called in a complaint to the Pinellas Park police or the county police, they can and probably would come out and raid this station.

Thank you for clearing that up. Both instances I have been referring to were pre-2005, so I was not aware of the change.

 

[ok walters]

That is simply not so. I did, indeed, say that as long as they don't cause problems they should be left alone. The other post specifically said they should be taken off the air if they do cause problems. If you're going to quote me, at least have the decency to do it correctly.

You just said it again. If they don't cause issues, then leave them alone, but if they do then the FCC should shut them down. So according to you, it is okay to run a pirate station as long as they "don't cause problems", but as soon as you do you are a criminal again. IT IS NEVER OKAY TO RUN A PIRATE STATION - not okay if you don't interfere, not okay if no one complains, not okay period. If there are frequencies available, then get one legally. If there are no frequencies available where you can show you will not interfere with a existing licensed facility, then the band is full - period. This is enough of a problem with pirate radio in Florida that Florida passed a law making it a felony to operate a pirate station - are felonies okay at any point? According to you they are - as long as no one complains.

So is it now okay to commit a felony - as long as no one complains. You heard it here first.

 

[ok walters]

There ARE frequencies available, otherwise I wouldn't be able to hear "WKMJ" or any of the other pirates on the air in the area. There would be EVEN MORE frequencies available if Clear Channel wasn't using religious translators to rebroadcast their AM/HD2 signals. The point you keep missing is that it is impossible to get an LPFM, and that's by design. It has nothing to do with frequencies not being available or the applicants not being qualified. This has everything to do with the government protecting the moneyed interests.

I wasn't describing an LPFM, what I was describing is a sensible pirate. As long as there are unjust regulations, there will be those who break them despite the risks. My point all along has been that a pirate isn't helping anyone if his equipment is confiscated and he is locked in jail. If you want to be a pirate - DON'T GET CAUGHT. If you do something stupid and get caught, you're hurting your cause.

This quote is way out there. "sensible pirate"? "a pirate isn't helping anyone if his equipment is is confiscated and he is locked in jail." "unjust regulations"?

Pirates don't "help" anyone, and there is no such thing as a "sensible pirate". The regulations are there to deliver a usable radio band, not a bunch of garbled trash because everyone is running a pirate station and no one has a viable signal due to overcrowding of the band and in many cases due to substandard equipment being used by the unregulated pirates. Just because you can hear a station, doesn't mean that there is room in the band for that station. You can hear any station if you are close enough to it - but what issues are they causing somewhere else?

There is never a good reason to run a pirate station ever. The are frequencies available for sale ALL OF THE TIME - there are several available in Tampa right now.

 

[coolaid213]

You must be a lot of fun at parties... look I've been working in legitimate broadcasting for 10 years, and despite that, I have no moral or ethical problems with pirate radio. There are lots of things that have been outlawed that I think are just fine... Again, you can't get a LPFM here... but CC can get 4 translators and waste them. Corporatism is crowding our airwaves more than any pirate has. I like pirate radio, I see it as a form of peaceful protest. We are just never going to agree on this. All I can tell you is that in this case, I think this pirate has gone too far.

 

[ok walters]

If you can't get a LPFM, then the band is full - is that hard to understand? CC can do what they want with the translators that they legitimately purchased from someone else, but somehow you have an issue with that. If you work in the "legitimate" side of the business as I do, then you should have some disdain for pirates as they do you nothing but harm. There is no such thing as "gone too far" - as soon as you turn it on you have gone too far.

We can disagree on this - I just feel a felony is a felony any way you try to justify it, and it is a felony for a reason.

 

[coolaid213]

The band ISN'T full. There are at least a couple of openings. And the only reason CC can do what they're doing with some of those translators is because they spent gobs of money to have the rules changed in their favor... just like big broadcasters lobied to increase penalties on pirates. I guess you think its ok to do whatever you want as long as you can afford to write the rules. I don't disdain pirates because the station I work at makes money and we are not affected by pirates.

 

[ok walters]

If the band isn't full, then you can get a translator or a LPFM. If it is full you can't. You have said it isn't full and there are a "couple of openings", but you can't get a LPFM. So which is it?

CC didn't write any rules - last I checked the FCC makes the rules. CC may have lobbied for rules that help them, but they did not make the rules anymore than you did. If CC has all of the control as you claim, there would be NO LPFMs anywhere as they do not help CC one bit - never have and never will. The guy with the gold tends to have an advantage in every business, but in this case all the gold did was enable them to PURCHASE many stations for prices that were too high and no one else would pay. CC is now is big debt trouble with huge ballon payments due in the next few years and a declining market working against them moving forward.

A pirate is a pirate and nothing else except a felon in Florida. They are not harmless - if they were there wouldn't be any FCC rules or Florida laws against it.

 

[Richard Stefan]

If the FCC would allow stations on 87.7 87.9 and 108.1 most tuners can get them...(mine goes to 87.5). there could be hundreds of 10 watt stations all over the country so there would be no need for pirates

 

[coolaid213]

Look at this little graph here:

http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/vacant?select=city&city=33713&state=&x=15&y=3

Now tell me why I have friends who have had their LPFM applications denied. Now, you can say, oh well those aren't really open channels, or that under certain conditions a station on that frequency here would cause interference in another market... blah blah blah. Here's some more information for you... here is a list of every LPFM in Florida...

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?state=FL&serv=FL&vac=&list=2

You tell me how many LPFM's you can spot in the Tampa Bay area. I see two, one in Dade City and one in Tampa.

The FCC makes some of the rules, states make some of the rules, local governments make their rules... all of the above are influenced by lobbyists. I don't have lobbyists, you don't have lobbyists, the guy running the pirate in Pinellas Park doesn't have lobbyists... but CC does, and they don't have to write the rules, they can drop millions on lobbying... and they have been, why do you think the FCC relaxed the restrictions on translators? In the first quarter of 2013 Clear Channel spent over a million dollars lobbying the FCC. On average CC spends 4 million dollars a year lobbying the FCC. They get their way, we don't. There is one LPFM in Tampa, meanwhile CC has at least 4 translators rebroadcasting the same old garbage. If you want to get on the FM radio and you don't have millions of dollars, your only option is to pirate... I've never claimed pirate radio isn't illegal, but some people are willing to face the consequences to their actions, and for that I salute them. Corporate radio is killing the golden goose, not the pirates. I find it absolutely laughable if you actually believe FM pirate stations are "harmful"... give me a break.

 

[coolaid213]

If the FCC would allow stations on 87.7 87.9 and 108.1 most tuners can get them...(mine goes to 87.5). there could be hundreds of 10 watt stations all over the country so there would be no need for pirates

87.7 isn't used because it is the audio frequency for TV channel 6.... 108.1 is the bottom of the VHF aircraft band, so I don't see that happening either. The point I'm trying to make is that there are already a couple of open spots in the middle of the band, and I guarantee you... if they're ever used around here, they'll never be given to some nobody LPFM. You'll find them end up in the hands of CC or Cox. It's just how it works, I'm not cynical, I'm just being a realist here.

 

[SarasotaJim]

This is enough of a problem with pirate radio in Florida that Florida passed a law making it a felony to operate a pirate station - are felonies okay at any point? According to you they are - as long as no one complains.

The Florida legislature didn't sprout this idea by itself. This is just another bad idea sponsored by the NAB, the same folks who destroyed the LPFM idea at the federal level. And this does nothing but make a joke out of the idea of a felony.

 

[SarasotaJim]

If CC has all of the control as you claim, there would be NO LPFMs anywhere...

And that's what happened until a fellow named Stephen Dunifer decided to fight the FCC when they tried to shut down his unlicensed station in California. Every corporate-hack member of the NAB was right there by the FCC's side fighting all the way. The court ruled in Dunifer's favor and the ruling was so legally sound that the FCC had to make provisions for small stations. Presto! The concept of the LPFMs was under consideration. That didn't stop the clowns at the NAB. They convinced the FCC that all LPFMs had to be non-commercial for some reason I still haven't figured out. They convinced the FCC that only a non-profit that has already been in business for a few years can even apply for a license. And some other stupid stuff designed to make all LPFMs as unlistenable as the crap in the 88-92 MHz part of the band. The NAB knew what it was doing.

I'm sorry. You're siding with the black magicians on this one.

[By the way, you don't have to preach to me about holding a "real" license. My name has been on the licenses of two top-100 market facilities in two states...actually, one of them an FM in a top-30 market.]

 

[ok walters]

And that's what happened until a fellow named Stephen Dunifer decided to fight the FCC when they tried to shut down his unlicensed station in California. Every corporate-hack member of the NAB was right there by the FCC's side fighting all the way. The court ruled in Dunifer's favor and the ruling was so legally sound that the FCC had to make provisions for small stations. Presto! The concept of the LPFMs was under consideration. That didn't stop the clowns at the NAB. They convinced the FCC that all LPFMs had to be non-commercial for some reason I still haven't figured out. They convinced the FCC that only a non-profit that has already been in business for a few years can even apply for a license. And some other stupid stuff designed to make all LPFMs as unlistenable as the crap in the 88-92 MHz part of the band. The NAB knew what it was doing.

I'm sorry. You're siding with the black magicians on this one.

[By the way, you don't have to preach to me about holding a "real" license. My name has been on the licenses of two top-100 market facilities in two states...actually, one of them an FM in a top-30 market.]

How many licenses you have or haven't held means nothing in this at all. Nobody was preaching anything to you - you said pirates should be left alone until they cause harm and that is nonsense. You would think someone who has or has had licensed stations (and likely a large investment) wouldn't condone a pirate operation, but ????

Last I checked Dunifer lost on appeal in 2000 and was banned from operating any radio facilty that is not licensed by the FCC. None of the court findings forced the FCC to form a LPFM option. There was in fact intense lobbying in 2000 of the FCC by NAB to prevent it altogether, which resulted in the stability of organization and non-profit requirements that you apparently don't like. So once again, NAB and CC can influence some things, but they do not control the radio band and are not "black magicians" as you call them. They are business people doing what business people in every industry do - try to make things best for them.

Even with the additional requirements that made getting licensed more expensive and difficult that you don't like, the LPFM experiment has been a bust by all accounts. Half of the LPFMs in my area are not even on the air or don't even have a facility to even be on the air from. Most of the original license holders were hobbyists who didn't understand that running a radio station is a small business, so they quickly faded away despite the very low costs invloved to keep such an operation on air.

Pirates are pirates and do not do anything positive for the radio band. We can disagree on what to do about them.

 

[ok walters]

Look at this little graph here:

http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/vacant?select=city&city=33713&state=&x=15&y=3

Now tell me why I have friends who have had their LPFM applications denied. Now, you can say, oh well those aren't really open channels, or that under certain conditions a station on that frequency here would cause interference in another market... blah blah blah. Here's some more information for you... here is a list of every LPFM in Florida...

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?state=FL&serv=FL&vac=&list=2

You tell me how many LPFM's you can spot in the Tampa Bay area. I see two, one in Dade City and one in Tampa.

The FCC makes some of the rules, states make some of the rules, local governments make their rules... all of the above are influenced by lobbyists. I don't have lobbyists, you don't have lobbyists, the guy running the pirate in Pinellas Park doesn't have lobbyists... but CC does, and they don't have to write the rules, they can drop millions on lobbying... and they have been, why do you think the FCC relaxed the restrictions on translators? In the first quarter of 2013 Clear Channel spent over a million dollars lobbying the FCC. On average CC spends 4 million dollars a year lobbying the FCC. They get their way, we don't. There is one LPFM in Tampa, meanwhile CC has at least 4 translators rebroadcasting the same old garbage. If you want to get on the FM radio and you don't have millions of dollars, your only option is to pirate... I've never claimed pirate radio isn't illegal, but some people are willing to face the consequences to their actions, and for that I salute them. Corporate radio is killing the golden goose, not the pirates. I find it absolutely laughable if you actually believe FM pirate stations are "harmful"... give me a break.

Nice engineering study. A graph off of Radio Locator. However, if it is accurate then frequencies are available. Each application is different so i have no idea why your friend got denied. He didn't use the same engineering study you did I hope.

The FCC list is pretty good as well. Few LPFMs in Tampa area for sure - just like all of the major cities in Florida where the band is pretty full - none in Jacksonville or Miami either and only one or two in Orlando - go figure. LPFM was intended for community radio - not as a marketable signal in a big city where there is ample radio coverage already.

Ever think that the difficulty that there is and the money that is required to get a solid FM license is due to the fact that there are only 100 FM frequencies in the band and 20 of those are non-commercial, so there is a definite supply and demand factor? There is also the financial viability factor - too many stations and none of them would be able to stay afloat financially. Look at what the addition of hundreds of cable channels has done to cable TV ad rates - pretty easy to see why CC and NAB spend so much time and money lobbying for thier interests.

So you think that a station causing interference to a licensed facilty is "blah blah blah" and you "salute" pirate radio operators. Nice.

 

[ok walters]

The Florida legislature didn't sprout this idea by itself. This is just another bad idea sponsored by the NAB, the same folks who destroyed the LPFM idea at the federal level. And this does nothing but make a joke out of the idea of a felony.

It isn't a bad idea when Florida is in the top 3 in pirate station issues in the country - right there with California and New Jersey. Those states also have state laws making unlicensed broadcasting a crime. If Stephen Dunifer had actually "won", it wouldn't be a crime anywhere.

 

[coolaid213]

Ok, I'm going to try to respond to all of your comments in order.

First of all, it is a absolute fallacy to claim that pirate radio drains money from legitimate stations. You average listener doesn't even listen to pirate radio stations, and your average pirate isn't dumb enough to start selling spots on their station... and when they do start doing things like that, they're usually nabbed pretty quickly. By the way, if an average listener does happen across a pirate station and listens to it for more than a few minutes, I see that as a net positive for terrestrial broadcasting. Lord knows, terrestrial radio is lacking creativity and originality as it is.

The point you're missing about the Dunifer incident and the other rash of pirate busts in the 90's, is that they were specifically responsible for "LPFM" being created in the first place. Of course, the NAB wasn't going to roll over, which is why LPFM is the joke it is today. I like how you use LPFM being a "bust" as an example of why low power FM broadcasting is bad. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about as "hobbyists" WERE NEVER CONSIDERED for an LPFM license... ever. Again, you contradict yourself claiming that LPFM's couldn't hack it in the radio business, even though you earlier pointed out correctly that the LPFM service is exclusively NON-COMMERCIAL. I seem to recall you saying that consolidation and deregulation were the best things that ever happened to terrestrial broadcasting... so I guess that explains where you're coming from.

As for the radio locator graph, it is correct because I typed in my zip code, and I have an extensive collection of very sensitive receivers... I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't know it to be true... the reason the people I know were denied was because they WERE hobbyists, and their applications were thrown out immediately without consideration. The parallels between LPFM and the Affordable Healthcare Act don't miss me... there are so many regulations and restrictions that it's practically impossible for any well meaning citizen or community organization to get a permit...

As for my blah blah blah comment, again you're taking it unnecessarily out of context. I wasn't suggesting anyone was causing interference to a legitimate operation, quite the opposite, I was saying that argument is generally a bunch of hogwash. If a pirate IS ACTUALLY causing interference to a legitimate operation, it doesn't last very long.....

The bottom line is that as long as there's money to be made in terrestrial broadcasting, the little guy will be shut out, and the fat cats will continue to belch the same old crap onto the band. Fortunately, there are still a few options for informative and entertaining radio in this market, but it's not like it used to be....