Pirates or Part 15'er in my area

[radio8z]

Hello all,

There was a recent post regarding collecting information about part15 AM stations. One reply to my post suggested that this is so that interference can be prevented. There have been posts about music licensing requests resulting from such listings. My answer to one of these posts which I titled "What?" probably was not clear, since I usually try to be brief. When I put a part 15 AM transmitter on the air, I listen carefully before I turn it on. I don't need frequency coordination. If I hear something, I don't transmit.

Browsing other sections of this board, I have found reports of "pirate" stations operating in my area on the FM band. One is reported to be operating within a few miles of my home, and another is reportedly heard along a major state route which I frequently travel. I sometimes tune to the reported frequencies as I travel, and I have heard nothing. I scanned the AM band with a high quality receiver and an outdoor antenna and have heard nothing but licensed stations. No pirates, no part15 stations. My experience is that Part 15 stations are not so numerous here that I need to worry about a coordination or listing effort.

If I can choose a clear AM frequency by listening why do I need to refer to a listing of Part 15 stations? I do not do it, but what happens if I hear a Part 15 AM signal and choose to "step" on it? Who is going to mediate? Who has ownership? Who was there first and who cares?

With the miserably low power allowed for part 15 AM, interference has not been and is not going to be a problem where I live, which is in a suburban area of the largest city in Ohio. I have been transmitting on part 15 AM on and off for over 40 years and I have never had a problem, and I never had to consult with anyone about what frequency to use. I just choose a frequency which is clear in my area. If something interferes I QSY.

Do any of you on this board have a story to tell about another part 15 station interfering with your signal? If so, how was it resolved?

Has anyone here heard a part 15 AM station at their home? Of course someone has, I just am curious as to how many.


Neil

 

[nd2023]

You may not be able to hear a Part 15 station on a frequency, but it may be audible within your station's coverage area. The best way to check is to drive in a circle with a radius of about 3 miles from your house and check for stations on your proposed frequency. An LPAM can go further than Part 15, so they would need to check a wider area. It would burn a lot of gas driving around the whole area to check for Part 15 stations.<P ID="signature">______________
17-year-old radio geek
Location: Princeton Junction, NJ
AIM: KewlDude471
WWPH 107.9 FM: http://wwph1079fm.no-ip.org</P>

 

[radio8z]

> You may not be able to hear a Part 15 station on a
> frequency, but it may be audible within your station's
> coverage area. The best way to check is to drive in a
> circle with a radius of about 3 miles from your house and
> check for stations on your proposed frequency. An LPAM can
> go further than Part 15, so they would need to check a wider
> area. It would burn a lot of gas driving around the whole
> area to check for Part 15 stations.
>
Hi,

Thanks for your suggestion. I need to ask why I should be concerned about a LPAM station since they do not exist?

Neil

 

[JohnA]

> Has anyone here heard a part 15 AM station at their home?
> Of course someone has, I just am curious as to how many.
>
>
> Neil
>
Yes I have but the transmissions were intermintent; probably
a talking house type xmiter with a repeating message that
had to do with church activites. It probably would never be entered
in anyones database. I simply moved from 1620 to 1640 Khz. BTW
I only operate during daytime as skywave comes booming in
from distant stations. I think that many of the P15 AM operators
are not as interested in community radio as the readers of this
forum and would never even know about the existiance of a PT 15
database. Just my 2 cents!

JohnA

 

[radio8z]

> > Has anyone here heard a part 15 AM station at their home?
>
> > Of course someone has, I just am curious as to how many.
> >
> >
> > Neil
> >
> Yes I have but the transmissions were intermintent; probably
>
> a talking house type xmiter with a repeating message that
> had to do with church activites. It probably would never be
> entered
> in anyones database. I simply moved from 1620 to 1640 Khz.
> BTW
> I only operate during daytime as skywave comes booming in
> from distant stations. I think that many of the P15 AM
> operators
> are not as interested in community radio as the readers of
> this
> forum and would never even know about the existiance of a PT
> 15
> database. Just my 2 cents!
>
> JohnA
>
Hi John,

Nice to hear your story. It doesn't sound like the kind of station one would be glued to the radio to hear. Yes, this is a good forum and it attracts many diverse interested people, each with their own interests and experience.

Neil

 

[JasonW]

Part 15 AM reception in airplanes

Neil, I recall reading a general aviation pilot's comments that he often clearly received Talking House transmitters running in houses up for sale when he flew over neighborhoods, so apparently the high-angle radiation is substantial.

There are highway radio networks in some western states where chains of small licensed stations aim programming at truckers and travelers, so I wonder if broadcasting to airplanes might be viable in some areas? Here in Fairbanks it seems everyone and his brother owns a Cessna or Piper Cub and is always flying around the area. -- JasonW

> > > Has anyone here heard a part 15 AM station at their
> home?
> >
> > > Of course someone has, I just am curious as to how many.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > Yes I have but the transmissions were intermintent;
> probably
> >
> > a talking house type xmiter with a repeating message that
> > had to do with church activites. It probably would never
> be
> > entered
> > in anyones database. I simply moved from 1620 to 1640 Khz.
>
> > BTW
> > I only operate during daytime as skywave comes booming in
> > from distant stations. I think that many of the P15 AM
> > operators
> > are not as interested in community radio as the readers of
>
> > this
> > forum and would never even know about the existiance of a
> PT
> > 15
> > database. Just my 2 cents!
> >
> > JohnA
> >
> Hi John,
>
> Nice to hear your story. It doesn't sound like the kind of
> station one would be glued to the radio to hear. Yes, this
> is a good forum and it attracts many diverse interested
> people, each with their own interests and experience.
>
> Neil
>

 

[radio8z]

Re: Part 15 AM reception in airplanes

> Neil, I recall reading a general aviation pilot's comments
> that he often clearly received Talking House transmitters
> running in houses up for sale when he flew over
> neighborhoods, so apparently the high-angle radiation is
> substantial.
>
> There are highway radio networks in some western states
> where chains of small licensed stations aim programming at
> truckers and travelers, so I wonder if broadcasting to
> airplanes might be viable in some areas? Here in Fairbanks
> it seems everyone and his brother owns a Cessna or Piper Cub
> and is always flying around the area. -- JasonW
>
>
Hello Jason,

That is interesting. What was the pilot doing scanning the AM band instead of driving the aircraft? Never mind, I know the answer. I copiloted with a commercial single engine plane pilot. Lots of fun after Mt. St. Helen's blew. Couldn't see sh.....stuff.

You mentioned "small licensed stations". Do you mean 100 to 1000 watters?

If anyone here likes trucker talk, listen to WLW 700 kHz. sometime. Jason, I don't know if it reaches Fairbanks but it is a hoot. Good entertainment after midnight. Bless the truckers for they bring me things that I need.


Keep in touch!

Neil

 

[JasonW]

Re: Part 15 AM reception in airplanes

Up here pilots use Automatic Direction Finders (ADFs) and LF/MF Non-Directional Beacons (NDBs). On an ADF you can hear the voice weather advisory broadcast (TWEB) along with the NDB's morse code identifier. ADFs can receive into the AM band, so a pilot could hear Part 15 AM transmitters on the ADF.

The highway radio network I heard about uses small licensed FM stations spread across several states along the highway that replaced Route 66, if I recall correctly. I *could* get WLW here if they'd fire up the old 500 kW water-cooled transmitter that's still there... -- JasonW

 

[pbolyn]

> Thanks for your suggestion. I need to ask why I should be
> concerned about a LPAM station since they do not exist?
>

Well, if you mean the wished-for LPAM FCC rulings, then certainly not. But, if you mean Part 15 AM stations, then given the range of part 15 AM stations and the small number, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY you will experience interference from them! More likely, you will get interference in the extended band from licensed traffic or park info stations that run at 20 watts or whatever.
<P ID="signature">______________
Phil B
</P>

 

[JasonW]

Agreed. And those licensed AM TIS (Travelers Information Station) and AM HAR (Highway Advisory Radio) stations are already listed on the FCC's web site.

Every now and then you'll get a new temporary AM HAR station set up at a new highway construction site to advise motorists, but TIS and HAR stations are usually fixed sites. -- JasonW

> > Thanks for your suggestion. I need to ask why I should be
>
> > concerned about a LPAM station since they do not exist?
> >
>
> Well, if you mean the wished-for LPAM FCC rulings, then
> certainly not. But, if you mean Part 15 AM stations, then
> given the range of part 15 AM stations and the small number,
> it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY you will experience interference from
> them! More likely, you will get interference in the extended
> band from licensed traffic or park info stations that run at
> 20 watts or whatever.
>

 

[radio8z]

Re: Part 15 AM reception in airplanes

> Up here pilots use Automatic Direction Finders (ADFs) and
> LF/MF Non-Directional Beacons (NDBs). On an ADF you can
> hear the voice weather advisory broadcast (TWEB) along with
> the NDB's morse code identifier. ADFs can receive into the
> AM band, so a pilot could hear Part 15 AM transmitters on
> the ADF.
>
> The highway radio network I heard about uses small licensed
> FM stations spread across several states along the highway
> that replaced Route 66, if I recall correctly. I *could*
> get WLW here if they'd fire up the old 500 kW water-cooled
> transmitter that's still there... -- JasonW
>
Jason,

Now you got me going. I have visited the WLW site and the Bethany Relay VOA station next door (now gone). There is a wonderful link that you and others might enjoy. I'll get it in a minute.

I personally heard music coming from the junk pile at Bethany. They were running 250 kW. back then. I heard the programming coming from a pile of scrap metal in the corner. I also knew several of the techs from WLW. One story I remember is one of them entered the tuning room and his wedding ring got really hot. Make of that what you may. The other is that they would send CW by shifting the carrier by about 2 Hz. They got lots of QSLs.

Here is a great link for anyone interested in broadcasting:

http://hawkins.pair.com/radio.html

I am trying to find a link to a story about a real radio pioneer, Stan Coning. I met him after he put one of the first FM stations on the air in Ohio. The station was bought out and then he put an AM station on the air. That too was bought out, but he was on the air for about 30 years. If I can find the link I will post it later.

Neil

 

[radio8z]

> > Thanks for your suggestion. I need to ask why I should be
>
> > concerned about a LPAM station since they do not exist?
> >
>
> Well, if you mean the wished-for LPAM FCC rulings, then
> certainly not. But, if you mean Part 15 AM stations, then
> given the range of part 15 AM stations and the small number,
> it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY you will experience interference from
> them! More likely, you will get interference in the extended
> band from licensed traffic or park info stations that run at
> 20 watts or whatever.
>
Phil,

Thanks

You said in a very few words what I was trying to say.

Neil

 

[JasonW]

Re: Part 15 AM reception in airplanes

There are stories that during World War II, WLW actually got their old #1 transmitter capable of putting out 1 million watts and made a few brief test transmissions at that power level.

Even at their legally-allowed 500 kilowatt output (until the FCC limited them to 50 kW), there were many instances of "singing rain gutters" and "talking sinks" near the station. Any reasonably large masses of metal with two or more sections joined by corroded fasteners (rectifiers) acted like crude crystal receivers. -- JasonW

> Jason,
>
> Now you got me going. I have visited the WLW site and the
> Bethany Relay VOA station next door (now gone). There is a
> wonderful link that you and others might enjoy. I'll get it
> in a minute.
>
> I personally heard music coming from the junk pile at
> Bethany. They were running 250 kW. back then. I heard the
> programming coming from a pile of scrap metal in the corner.
> I also knew several of the techs from WLW. One story I
> remember is one of them entered the tuning room and his
> wedding ring got really hot. Make of that what you may.
> The other is that they would send CW by shifting the carrier
> by about 2 Hz. They got lots of QSLs.
>
> Here is a great link for anyone interested in broadcasting:
>
> http://hawkins.pair.com/radio.html
>
> I am trying to find a link to a story about a real radio
> pioneer, Stan Coning. I met him after he put one of the
> first FM stations on the air in Ohio. The station was bought
> out and then he put an AM station on the air. That too was
> bought out, but he was on the air for about 30 years. If I
> can find the link I will post it later.
>
> Neil
>

 

[westlife]

Re: Part 15 AM reception in airplanes

> There are stories that during World War II, WLW actually got
> their old #1 transmitter capable of putting out 1 million
> watts and made a few brief test transmissions at that power
> level.

The WLW engineers did continue to maintain and upgrade the big transmitter long after their 500 kW authorization expired, improving its performance and reliability far beyond its original design, but I haven't heard of them pushing it up to 1 MW, at least not during WWII.

The last serious campaign for "super-power" AM in the USA occured in the late '60s, when many of the Class I-A clear channel stations petitioned the FCC to allow powers up to 750 kW. At that time, the upgraded WLW transmitter certainly would've been capable of reliable 750 kW output, had the FCC allowed it.

However, after the FCC turned down all these super-power applications and basically destroyed any hope of U.S. stations getting any more than 50 kW, the WLW transmitter fell into disuse, and eventually (by the 1980s, I believe) the PCB-laden oil was removed from its monstrous transformers, thereby rendering it permanently inoperable.

WLW still maintains their much-upgraded original 1927 50 kW transmitter in fully functional condition, though; they had it on the air the moment that "Y2k" arrived on 1/1/2000. No doubt they still fire it up every now and then, with WLW listeners probably not even knowing that they're hearing a signal that's being delivered by a transmitter that's at least 70 years older than WLW's main solid-state transmitter.
<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[rfry]

Re: Part 15 AM reception in airplanes

> However, after the FCC turned down all these super-power
> applications and basically destroyed any hope of U.S.
> stations getting any more than 50 kW, etc
_________________

That's true for stations licensed with omnidirectional radiators, but there are a large number of commerical AM broadcast stations with 50 kW txs, but with effective radiated powers considerably greater than 50 kW in some directions, due to their directional antenna systems.

It is interesting how little difference that extra power really makes in some situations. With a 50kW tx and a highly directional antenna array, WWJ (950 kHz, Detroit) radiates about 300 kW toward the north from their tx site south of the city. WJR (760 kHz) radiates 50 kW in all directions from a site several miles north of WWJ. Yet the day and night 2.5 mV/m field strength contour of WWJ falls within WJR's 2.5 mV/m contour, even in the direction of WWJ's maximum radiation, over propagation paths with virtually identical conductivities.
//