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Brinkman was stripped of his afternoon show in favor of Jack Davis. Jack was already gainfully employed at Mortensen at the time, and doing PT at KAAM. For the last few years, Chuck's been out of a fulltime job, which is not the best situation for someone 70 years old and likely still working because he needs some money. Good news now is that Chuck's working for the new syndie/national oldies format based in Addison (name escapes me) so hopefully that's bringing him not only income, but some personal satisfaction after devoting his entire life to radio. I haven't always been a fan of Chuck's, as he can be gruff in his pursuit of perfection (a la Chapman.) But his successes outweigh that...and on a personal level, he's always been very nice to me.

I heard Mary Rose is also working for Traffic.com. Always good to have a backup plan.

And Jack Bishop.....where'ja go?? You left Rational and I didn't even know about it. Someone said you were thinking of going back to SF.

Remember when KXEZ-92.1 was going to be the "successor" to 620 when the crew sold it to Disney? The signal was shoddy at best, but the standards and various oldies sounded great on FM when you could pick them up. The station needed (and probably still does) some engineering tweaking to make the sound better, tho.

And Cary, there are obviously some folks around here that don't understand the concept of "Love of the Art." You and I do our shows primarily for the love of the music, the love of radio, and to achieve some personal satisfaction. Money is secondary...though I know you and I could easily spend it if it was coming in! And I hear the very same sentiments from all sorts of people about Don Crawford and his operation. I guess one day he'll have to shutter the doors there because his target audience has all died (no doubt from destroying their colons from washing them out too much.) It's a format that can expand and grow and rope in new listeners, if you're willing to spend the time refining the playlist often...and not wasting away weekends with infomercials.

As for St. Louis' "Red" format, I thought for sure that would be the answer/successor to the declining New-Age Jazz/Smooth Jazz format, but it didn't happen. Now KJKK's HD-2 channel is all Las Vegas-type lounge/Brat Pack music, but even it doesn't hit the mark perfectly. (And since when do HD-2's run commercials?) It's worth checking out, and you can get to their HD-2 channel online.
 
MikeShannon914 said:
And Cary, there are obviously some folks around here that don't understand the concept of "Love of the Art." You and I do our shows primarily for the love of the music, the love of radio, and to achieve some personal satisfaction.

I finally got around to finding out where Chalk Hill (where the studio is) is located relative to Dallas and found that you start out going east on I-20 and if you miss the turn for Chalk Hill, in another mile or two, you're swimming in the Atlantic Ocean. To drive all that way to do a Saturday night program illustrates Mike Shannon's point above.

I caught about forty minutes of Cary's show on KZQX last night via my iPhone: Good lively music - some older, some newer, just enough interesting enlightenment, and a brief, locally relevant commercial or two. Radio.
 
Chalk Hill is about ten miles south of Longview. It isn't anywhere near the ocean, unless Lake Cherokee floods... :eek:
 
All this time, I thought Chalk Hill was referring to where Chalk Hill Rd is, west Dallas, near Cockrell Hill Rd/I-30. Aren't there some towers out there as well?
 
MikeShannon914 said:
All this time, I thought Chalk Hill was referring to where Chalk Hill Rd is, west Dallas, near Cockrell Hill Rd/I-30. Aren't there some towers out there as well?

I think there have been some. Don't know about now, but the DFW version of Chalk Hill is fairly close to Cedar Hill. I'm out in East Texas near Longview. We are actually licensed to Tatum which is about 6 miles from the studios which are located in Chalk Hill.
 
Re: Mike Shannon's posts: Hear! Hear! You perfectly articulated my philosophy as well as accurately described the KAAM debacle and its cast of characters.

And it IS a debacle, whether lomax cares to come out of the state of Denial long enough to admit it. And while we're stating the obvious:

McCoy often defended the Crawford's abysmal programming decisions, particularly over the last few years as a justification for a least keeping the Standards format going on the air. He, too is in denial. KAAM & his Breakfast Club morning show is his only reason to get out of bed in the morning.

That, his hefty paycheck (compared to everyone else on the air staff-past & present) his massive amount of vacation time, not counting all the free cruises (he's going back to Alaska this fall for the 800th time) are the real reasons he is Crawford best yes man. Make NO mistake - he doesn't give a damn about the format.

To McCoy's credit: He brought a viable format to the Crawfords in 1999 on 770. Music 24/7 with special music programming on the weekends. Live DJ's 24 hours a day. Jaan in the morning, Linda Martin Middays, Don Evans afternoon drive, me in the evenings, Tori Logan nights and Rob Martinez overnights. Hubcap Carter and Cruisin' Al did the Saturday Night Sock Hop and I did my Sinatra & Big Band shows on the weekends. After a little more than a year in late 2000 the Crawfords began to chip away at the business model McCoy brought them. Bastardizing the format and alienating listeners and sponsors alike.

And what began with the Father has been mercilessly continued by the son - and McCoy didn't (and hasn't) opened his mouth. Of course, he knows that if he doth protest too much, he too may wind up on the Crawford former employee junk heap like so many of the rest of us. But at least he'd have his integrity intact.

But integrity is something he has about as much of as his boss, so we all know the answer there.

Mike also brought up the Red format in St. Louis a few years back. They came very, very close to successfully updating the Standards format. Perhaps if they'd had longer to develop it they might have succeeded and created a brand new format.

Unfortunately Ennis (their parent company) sold the station and Red went bye-bye. And now we have the demise of Platinum.

So much has been chronicled here I can't add much new. For a company that is in so much financial trouble as Citadel is apparently, the blood bath at Platinum was likely inevitable. The bean counters and sales of radio always win out over the creative side and for that matter listener preferences. Like it or not - creative radio is dead forget about life-support. As for me?

I will continue my affiliation with KZQX as long as I'm permitted to do the kind of radio I believe in; playing good music, attracting appreciative listeners and doing the best job I can for the sponsors we have. For me it is indeed a 229 mile round trip weekly, but I get to do the kind of radio I believe in and for me that's all the compensation I need (unless gas rises bove $3 per gallon) at which time Chuck and I may have to talk. In the meanwhile...

This next song was recorded on May 23rd, 1940 by Tommy Dorsey with Frank Sinatra & the Pied Pipers. Not only was it a million seller, it was #1 for 12 weeks and became one of the great anthems of World War II

Stay tuned...
 
Chuck or Carey -


About 10 years ago there was a station in Weatherford which billed itself as "QX-FM" and featured a Standards type format that I thought was much better than KAAM because it did not limit itself to just the same "hit" recordings from years gone by played over and over again year after year. It featured recordings from a similar genres that KAAM plays but a lot of them were rather obscure. And it played what I suspect were more recent recordings of the standards. I always got the impression that the fellow who programed it did so based on the merit of the individual recordings rather than how many elderly listeners might remember them from their youth. I can't remember his name - but he used to get in some pretty fierce flame wars on a dfw radio usenet group I occasionally lurked in. He clearly did not like KAAM or its personnel and put up a lot of postings knocking KAAM and plugging his QX FM - which is how I learned about the station. I never followed the flame wars close enough to take sides. But I DID agree with him that he did a much better job of programing the tiny Weatherford station than most major market "standards" stations I have heard. Unfortunately for the programming, the station's signal faded out once one got east of downtown Fort Worth and eventually the station dropped the format altogether.

Question: Is there some sort of connection between KZQX in Chalk Hill and that Weatherford station? Or perhaps there is some meaning in "QX" that I am not aware of which inspired both stations to use that in their call letters?
 
dismuke said:
Question: Is there some sort of connection between KZQX in Chalk Hill and that Weatherford station? Or perhaps there is some meaning in "QX" that I am not aware of which inspired both stations to use that in their call letters?

There is no direct connection, except for the advice and tutoring of one Frank Benton, who used to program the Weatherford station. He used to post under the name "Mr. Music," and you are right, there were a lot of flame wars.

As far as I know the Weatherford station is now trying to emulate KVIL, which seems fairly pointless to me, since KVIL comes in OK in their city of license. “Mr. Music” is no longer associated with it, but I wish them success. Local radio is a tough business.

All those “lively discussions” were going on about the time we signed on as one of the first five LPFM stations in Texas. (We are now a Class A Commercial FM). I'd come to know Frank through that message board, which led to some phone calls and eventually, a ten year friendship. It was Frank who talked me into applying for call letters that had “QX” in them, so we could share some production duties. It was a good relationship, but purely friendly with no business connection whatsoever.

After getting the Construction Permit for the station, I was trying to figure out what format to do with it. My obvious choices seemed to be Smooth Jazz or Standards. Most other formats had at least one, and sometimes many other stations doing them. I was leaning towards the Smooth Jazz idea, but Frank volunteered to help get us going if I would go with Standards. I did, and he was a BIG help. I learned a lot from him.

Like a lot of other early baby boomers, I had always heard this stuff, but it had never been my first choice to listen to. To my surprise, I found I really liked it. It was a refreshing change from the same tired 500 songs I’d been hearing over and over for the last 20-25 years. Coincidental to that discovery was current “Popular Music” was leaving me behind. I’m too old for it. I really couldn’t relate to Rap or Hip-Hop and modern country sounded a lot like Three Dog Night with a steel guitar and a fiddle. On the other hand, I was enjoying the discovery of a lot of this music that I either hadn’t heard in a long time, or had never heard. It was still good music, and if you’ve never heard it before, then it is as new to you as if it were the latest release from the Black Eyed Peas. I figured that if it interested me, then there would be other people in the area who would enjoy it too.

As luck would have it, about three weeks before we were scheduled to sign on, a local full power station flipped to Smooth Jazz. That development made the Standards format seem like a much better idea, since our peanut-whistle signal was enough of a challenge. If you are small and at a big signal disadvantage, there is no point in doing what everyone else does.

As it worked out, we've outlasted a ton of other stations in the area by just doing one thing, and trying to do it as well as we can with our available resources. It has been an interesting journey.

That’s probably more information than you wanted to know, but I’m seldom at a loss for words…. ;D
 
Yes. Frank Benton was his name. I figured that the letters QX were more than purely coincidental. Is he still around that you know of? He certainly had a....shall we say "colorful".... posting style. But that's usenet for you. Today's moderated discussion boards are vastly better in terms of having an intelligent discussion. But one thing about having been on contentious usenet groups is it did force you to learn how to stick up for yourself when necessary.

Chuck said:
On the other hand, I was enjoying the discovery of a lot of this music that I either hadn’t heard in a long time, or had never heard. It was still good music, and if you’ve never heard it before, then it is as new to you as if it were the latest release from the Black Eyed Peas. I figured that if it interested me, then there would be other people in the area who would enjoy it too.

Here you have touched on a very good point and on something that has always frustrated me about nostalgia formatted stations in general. The premise behind such stations seems to be that the only reason that anybody could possibly want to listen to them is because they wish to remember the music from their youth. There is certainly nothing wrong with nostalgia and wishing to revisit fond memories. But the premise seems to be that the music is of little value outside of that context. In other words, people are nothing more than pathetically conformist little sheep who are mindlessly incapable of being able to appreciate anything outside of that which happens to be mass market "trendy" and "cool" amongst whatever age group/demographic they happened to have been born into.

My own personal experience is quite different. When I was very young, I discovered and developed a passion for music from the 1920s and 1930s decade thanks to a big band program on KERA-FM hosted by the late Jim Lowe and Charlie The Collector (both of whom, much later on, reappeared on KAAM) which included such earlier recordings. That music had passed from the scene long before I was born - but, as you said, it was "new" to ME. Today, I have a large 78 rpm collection and stream the music online (see the .sig below). I get occasional emails from kids in junior high school who were assigned to listen as part of a homework assignment who became regular listeners because they think the music is "cool." And the music is cool - it is just no longer widely known. The cut off date for my station is roughly 1935 - which means that someone who was 15 at that cut off date would now be 90. I occasionally hear from listeners in their 90s. But they are rare. Most are like me who were born decades after it had died out. Some discovered it through old records inherited from their parents or grandparents. Younger listeners tend to discover it as a result of the music's increasing visibility on the Internet.

Now, I DO understand that, unlike most Internet stations, a terrestrial station is a serious business endeavor with very large amounts of capital at stake. And it is true that most people DO tend to be somewhat sheep like in terms of how their musical tastes conform to that which is trendy amongst their particular demographic and that it makes business sense for stations to capitalize on that fact. People only know what they have been exposed to - and for most people, that unfortunately happens to be whatever they were targeted for by mass marketers.

Older styles of music will necessarily cater to an increasingly niche market as people from their heyday pass on. But there can be successful niche genres and markets. And, sadly, older styles of American pop music have had a pretty poor track record of developing and surviving as a successful niche. I think a lot of this is due to the widespread premise that once the generation that grew up with the music dies out, any value the music might have to offer necessarily dies out with it.

By contrast, there is NOBODY alive today who was a contemporary of Mozart, Chopin or Tchaikovsky. But their music continues to endure and there has always been a successful and vibrant niche audience for it. Not so for early 20th century pop music.

I understand why a KAAM needs to appeal to an older demographic and be able to tell advertisers that it is able to deliver such an audience. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nor is there anything necessarily wrong with a station's ownership primarily being interested in a format strictly for business reasons only. But why not at least hire station management that happens to be passionate about that particular format and values the music on its own merit as an end in itself? Such a person would not simply look at the music as a little more than a means of selling laxatives but would have a passion for encouraging younger generations to discover it. Sadly, I don't see a great deal of effort on the part of most standards stations to do that. They play the same relatively limited playlist year after year after year - which grows old VERY quickly for someone who has no particular memories associated with the songs that happened to have been "hits" back in the day. There were tens of thousands of records issued in that era that are musically excellent examples of their particular genre but which never became hits. Why not rotate some of those into the mix in order to keep the station "fresh" and "new"?

There are a lot of factors that determine which songs become "hits" - including the marketing skills of those who issued the recording. A lot of outstanding recordings in any genre and in any era never ended up becoming hits for one reason or another. Enthusiasts who did not grow up with vintage pop genres look at them with very different eyes than those who regard the music as little more than nostalgia. At the very least, when the generation who grew up with the music does off, it more or less forces those few who DO chose to format such music to do so in a way which appeals to younger listeners. Maybe that is what it ultimately takes for older music to find a viable long term niche - people who are able to see it in retrospect from a fresh point of view and promote it accordingly.

That is what I liked about Frank Benton's station - he presented standards with a fresh and different approach. His station presented such music as timeless unlike KAAM which seems to regard it as dated. There was a fellow on KAAM in the evening around the time of the short lived swing dance revival fad who had a definite passion for the music and even made efforts on his program to appeal to that younger audience. Not sure if that was Carey or not - but I think it might have been. But that seemed to be a happy exception and was a contrast to the rest of its programing day. That was around the time I gave up on the station and terrestrial music radio in general.

All I can say is thank goodness for the Internet because it is and will be the salvation of forgotten and niche genres. When I was a kid and KERA discontinued Jim Lowe's weekly program, the music I was passionate about was completely absent from D/FW airwaves for several years. Not a good thing for a kid who loved such music and had precious little money to buy his own records. Nor is that a good set of circumstances for a musical genre to find an appreciative modern audience.

Today, one can hear 1920s and 1930s music 24 hours a day on the Internet on my station and elsewhere. There is actually a station (Weimar Rundfunk) that plays similar music to what I play but restricts itself ONLY to vintage European recordings. You can even find the music on mainstream sites such as Pandora. Pandora, of course, limits itself recordings from CD reissues whereas I spend countless hours digitally restoring obscure 78 rpms that have not been reissued which is something Pandora is not in a position to do. Unlike Pandora's staff, I work for free. But if someone first learns about the music via Pandora - well, they will eventually discover my station and many others venues for hard core enthusiasts.

If you are small and at a big signal disadvantage, there is no point in doing what everyone else does.

As it worked out, we've outlasted a ton of other stations in the area by just doing one thing, and trying to do it as well as we can with our available resources. It has been an interesting journey.

And that is because there ARE people out there who will appreciate the music you are playing if they only get an opportunity to become aware that it exists and discover it. But it requires a certain amount of passion for a person to spend the time and effort in finding and cultivating such an audience because one certainly is not going to get rich doing so.

If Henry Ford had consulted a focus group to determine whether or not there was a mass market for the automobile - well, he would have been told that most people preferred horses and buggies and we might have never heard of him. There are times when one must actually go out and CREATE a market for one's product. It makes sense for corporate radio to be reluctant to do so when there are more sure fire ways to generate a return on their investment. But I have never figured out why so many marginal stations and weaker signals seem to be reluctant to do so. Like you said, what they ought to be doing is trying to differentiate themselves. And there are LOTS of neglected genres out there just crying for a wider audience.

That’s probably more information than you wanted to know, but I’m seldom at a loss for words…. ;D

Well, that's ok. I am notoriously long winded :)
 
I found Dismukes last post very interesting and he makes a point that I've been trying to get across for a long time and seems to fall on deaf ears, and its simply this:

There are reasons why a song becomes popular. It may be the place and time, the circumstances, the artist, etc.

Mostly it's because that music or artist makes a direct connection with the listening public. I remember a few years back some beer company put Sinatra's "The Way You Look Tonight" in a TV commercial and suddenly this 1936 Oscar winner for best song became popular again. Nobody that like it cared that the song was 60 years old - they just thought the song was cool.

Now I've been 'raggin' on KAAM and McCoy over the last few posts and the point is (as a programmer) he's not doing anything much different from any other music PD. Tight playlists. And again, playlists on every other music station are much tighter than KAAM. And McCoy regularly adds new recordings - even though more often than not, I disagree with many of the choices.

But that's okay - his music choices are no better or worse than mine would be. My point is that any music that becomes popular does so because it makes a connection with the audience.

It also seems to me that, if a song from 1936 (again using The Way You Look Tonight as an example) connects with a 1936 audience it will connect to an open-minded audience in 2010. How many examples can any of us site, where a song - decades old - appears in a movie and suddenly winds up back on the charts. Remember the Righteous Bothers Unchained Melody in Ghost? Or What a Wonderful World/i] by Louis Armstrong from Good Morning Vietnam?

My 10 year old's favorite song right now is La Vie En Rose by Armstrong because he heard it in Wall-E.
Quality never goes out of style. Most PD's seem to feel that their audiences will leave them en masse if they air a B cut. Why?

McCoy used to tell me, "You should never be too far away from a hit."

I agree with that. But I contend there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a "B" or deeper cut by a well known artist, such as Sinatra, or Elvis or the Beatles if you program a hit on either side of it. Then that deep cut becomes like the cream in an oreo.

And then, your audience stays with you to see what you'll play next. It's ridiculous to construe that - due to age - a once popular song loses all relevance.
 
dismuke said:
Yes. Frank Benton was his name. I figured that the letters QX were more than purely coincidental. Is he still around that you know of?

Frank is still around. I'll probably give him a call this afternoon. He is a KZQX fan. I suppose that is because he helped create it.

dismuke said:
Here you have touched on a very good point and on something that has always frustrated me about nostalgia formatted stations in general. The premise behind such stations seems to be that the only reason that anybody could possibly want to listen to them is because they wish to remember the music from their youth.

Not everyone is "musically adventurous." I admit that I am. For a long time, I thought that was unusual, but I've found that I'm far from alone. I have callers who are obviously kids, asking some interesting questions about the music we play. I've even had a couple of them suggest something that I wasn't playing. The funny thing is they were usually pretty good suggestions. (It surprised me too!)

I'm in a market of about 250,000 people, although our signal only covers a part of it. We were only on the air with a full power signal for a little over two weeks of the fall book reporting period. Prior to that, for a little over eight years, we were an LPFM. We still did a 1.3 in twelve and up last fall. The figures for older age groups were considerably higher. It seems to me that in a market the size of DFW, a 1.3 in 12+ would add up to a considerable number of listeners. I understand that not all of these people are in a desirable demographic for someone selling Clearasil, but they might be prime candidates for travel, dining, entertainment and a lot of other products.

dismuke said:
There is certainly nothing wrong with nostalgia and wishing to revisit fond memories. But the premise seems to be that the music is of little value outside of that context.

I think those people miss the point. Even if the rest of the world has heard something ad nauseum, it is still fresh the first time YOU discover it. The trick is to keep the "ad nauseum" part to a minimum. A lot of standards station seem to ratchet up the "nausea quotient" by having very stale and predictable play lists.

Early on, a listener called up to sing the stations’ praises. He said, "I love to be surprised, and you do that." I've taken that as some good advice. If things are too predictable, it will become boring. I'm not suggesting that somebody go wild with the random shuffle mode on an ipod, but with a little forethought, it is possible to make things sound fresh, even if the song is an old one.

dismuke said:
Now, I DO understand that, unlike most Internet stations, a terrestrial station is a serious business endeavor with very large amounts of capital at stake.


Since we started out as a non-commercial station, making a profit was not something that was on the front burner. On the other-hand, my strong sense of self preservation dictated that we didn't want to go broke in the process. The good news for me was the cost of entry was relatively low. It still is with the commercial station, and I know that is unusual. For people who paid prices that resemble the national debt of a third world nation, I can see why they might be reluctant to take a flyer on an unusual format.



dismuke said:
I understand why a KAAM needs to appeal to an older demographic and be able to tell advertisers that it is able to deliver such an audience.

All the experts tell me that advertisers don't want an older audience. It is a hard sell. For many products and services, I agree. Maybe that is what puzzles me. Why would you intentionally format a station to be "Geezer Radio?" To be certain, the format appeals to an older audience, but that does not mean that it should be exclusive to people with one foot in the grave. And that doesn't necessarily mean including soft rock songs from 78's and 80's to expand the audience, although you might certainly want to include artists of that era (right up to today's musicians) who are doing things that actually fit with the older performers


dismuke said:
...there ARE people out there who will appreciate the music you are playing if they only get an opportunity to become aware that it exists and discover it. But it requires a certain amount of passion for a person to spend the time and effort in finding and cultivating such an audience because one certainly is not going to get rich doing so.

It wouldn't be realistic to think that gobs of money are going to float down from the heavens with any niche format, but I think it is possible to make a decent living, be a value to your community, and have a little fun while you are doing it. That may not make stockholders warm and fuzzy, but not all stations are huge corporations. A lot are closely held companies, and they may be in a better position to do something that is a bit "out of the box."
 
Briefly, I just gotta add this overview: From all I've seen the most widely popular American solo singers since the beginning of recorded music are Rudy Valee, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson and Garth Brooks. They all had staying power, hit after hit for years.

Garth is still going strong but only on country radio (he doesn't get AC exposure anymore, at least not from what I hear). All the rest have passed away. With the exception of a few stations, M.J. is the only one of these singers you can hear regularly on non-country radio.

There's something wrong with that.
 
Was reading reply # 22 by crbigband about KQUE. If there was a station like that in this market, I'd be listening ! I listened to & briefly had the honor of working part time @ KFJZ 870 when it was Standards in the
mid 1980's. KQUE sounds like it was what I used to hear called "full service" radio.
 
little1 said:
And then the most important thing. So KAAM is "screwing up" standards. Whoring it out with infomercials, etc. If you just fracture the audience between KAAM and this new station, do you somehow think both will be successful? If there's not enough audience to support one station well, do you really think it'll support 2???

What you suggest here might very well be the case - especially if one's sole motive is to identify and appeal strictly to an existing audience and nothing else beyond that. Certainly, it makes sense for large corporations who pay a lot for a frequency and need to generate as sure-fire a return to shareholders as possible to do exactly that.

On the other hand, the basic premise here that I wish to challenge is the notion that the audience for a given format or genre is necessarily something that is static - sort of like, for example, the replacement parts market for appliances that have not been made in 30 years.

There is absolutely no reason at all why the Metroplex audience for post World War II "standards" type music could not be doubled beyond KAAM's current listenership if someone were willing to made the effort to do it right and to adequately promote it.

Now, whether it makes sense to do so from a strict financial return on investment standpoint is an entirely different issue. But my point is that I zero doubt that it COULD be done.

Look at it this way: last time I checked, WRR-FM totally CREAMED KAAM in terms of ratings. But pretty much ANY 20th century pop genre is going to be far easier for modern audiences open to trying something different to approach and relate to than the music played on WRR. Yet WRR attracts listeners.

My strong guess is that most of WRR's audience did NOT grow up listing primarily to classical music. Some did, of course. But my very strong guess is that a sizable percentage of the audience acquired a taste for classical music over time.

Why were such people able to acquire a taste for music that was composed well over a century before they were born? Because there has always existed a large enough niche market for such music to allow it to remain on the radio dial and thus be available for people to tune in and discover.

By contrast, popular music tends to be quickly discarded by our culture once it goes out of style - and music from the "recent past" is often viewed with a certain amount of scorn by the generations that immediately follow it. This has especially been the case with the popular music from the early decades of the 20th century. In the '30s and '40s, the number of radio frequencies was very limited and music had to compete for airtime with drama, comedy and other programing. There simply was no room for "oldies" formats to keep yesterday's music going even among the crowd that grew up with it. Thus it was forgotten very quickly.

Even after the number of frequencies on the dial exploded a few decades later, sheer demographics made it more viable to use those frequencies to program to the numerically large baby boom generation. The only reason the music from the baby boomer's generation has managed to endure so long is because there are so many baby boomers. The reason why young people today are familiar with the Beatles - who recorded 40-50 years ago - is because their music has never disappeared from the airwaves. By contrast, young people in the 1960s and 1970s had virtually know knowledge of the music and artists from the 1920s which, by then, had been all but forgotten, even by many old timers.

The reason why very few people today have even heard of the artists from the late 1920s and early 1930s that I present on Radio Dismuke is because, prior to the Internet, there were precious few, if any, opportunities in most cities for people to become exposed to the music let alone become fans. Had the music been more easily accessible over the past many decades, it would certainly have a far larger following today. And, my experience is that, if you can just get people to give it a try and to listen to the music for a couple of hours, a certain percentage of them will like it and become "hooked." The same holds true for plenty of other forgotten or under-appreciated genres as well.

Sure, a very large portion of the public are a bunch of sheep who dutifully listen only the the music that they are "supposed to listen to" as defined by whatever demographic they happen to fall into. But there are plenty of others in this world who are open to something different and make their own judgments when it comes to forming various preferences. There are plenty of people - including younger people - who do not currently listen to post World War II "standards' but would be open to it if someone were to do a decent job of presenting it and they were adequately made aware of it.

Sure, a new station playing "standards" style music might draw from KAAM's existing audience. But it could also draw in some people who are open to the format but are turned off by KAAM's approach to it. If properly promoted, it could also attract listeners who have never bothered to even check KAAM out.

Yes, perhaps a new station would drive KAAM out of business altogether and bring things back to just one station. On the other hand, perhaps the competition might motivate KAAM to get its act together and make some changes. One of my criticisms of KAAM is the fact that, in my view, it tries to cover WAY too much ground musically - so much so that it features recordings side by side that simply do not complement each other very well. Sorry, but the big bands and 1970s pop are products of VERY different eras and VERY different mindsets. It is certainly possible for a given person to be able to appreciate both. But if one is not careful, the clash between the two can be very awkward and a HUGE turnoff for those who prefer one over the other.

If you had two stations playing that format, each could differentiate itself from the other by having a slightly different emphasis within that format. The result would be that both stations would have a better musical product for both hard core enthusiasts and for new listeners who are merely checking them out.

Again, I am NOT suggesting that trying something like this necessarily makes financial sense. Nor am I suggesting that if somebody did the two station scenario would be the likely result. And it is certainly true that really niche formats are much more appropriate for the Internet than terrestrial radio.

I am merely saying that the audience for a given format or type of music is NOT necessarily static. Markets and audiences are NOT some sort of natural phenomena that just happen to exist. They are CREATED and SOMEBODY or some group of people at some point in time took steps to bring them into being.

Is it worth the time and effort to create a larger audience for "standards" - or for big band music or for 1920s and 1930s pop and jazz or anything else? Can such formats be "viable"? It really depends on what you are after. If you are looking for a return on your capital comparable to other investment opportunities that are out there, probably not. But not every investment made is based solely on getting the best financial return. Some projects are primarily a "labor of love" and are regarded as an end in of themselves.

For me, personally, the ONLY value of having a radio frequency would be to use it to promote the music I am passionate about. If I had the financial means to acquire one, all I would want out of it is enough money to pay whatever bills needed to be paid and whatever salary, if any, I might need from it. For me, that would be "viable." Such certainly would not be "viable" for a company like Citidel. I like having an audience and money just as much as anyone. But having an audience is of value to me ONLY if the audience exists as a result of my doing what I WANT to be doing. Having a huge audience and getting paid for playing music that I despise would actually be a dis-value to me. It would essentially be a day job doing something I hated - and if you hate what you are doing, you probably aren't going to be very successful at it anyway.

But if you have enough passion, then it can be possible for a "labor of love" type endeavor to be viable in a way which would NOT be viable by anyone else's standards. And in a market as large as D/FW, I think that two standards stations could make it if both were operated on a "labor of love" type basis.
 
crbigband said:
McCoy used to tell me, "You should never be too far away from a hit."

But I fail to see exactly WHY that is wise advice when it comes to playing music that is OLD.

I can see why it makes sense when one is playing MODERN music because the list of recordings which are considered "hits" is a moving target constantly evolving and changing. By the time a recording becomes shopworn and loses its luster, the station has moved on to something else.

The problem with that notion when it comes to OLD music is the fact that the list of recordings which were considered "hits" back in the day is forever static and never changes. Stick with the philosophy you attribute to McCoy for very long and it will eventually grow repetitious and stale - which is how KAAM sounded back when I occasionally listened.

Now, I DO understand that people like to hear music which is familiar to them. But if that were true in the extreme, music would NEVER evolve - people would listen to the same exact recordings forever because it is familiar. If you think about it, most people like to hear a certain MIXTURE of both familiar recordings as well as new ones.

Are older people somehow different in that respect? I understand that a lot of them DO wish to hear again the big hits from their youth. But is that the ONLY thing they want to listen to? Have they zero interest in hearing at least SOME amount recordings that are different - in this case, "different" meaning recordings from the same era and genre which did not necessarily sell as well?

My experience is that most people's musical tastes tend to BROADEN as they get older. It is very YOUNG people who tend to be almost dogmatically devoted to a narrow range and are borderline contemptuous of everything else. As people grow older, they acquire new tastes and learn to appreciate stuff which they were once indifferent to or perhaps even once disliked. That certainly has been true for me.

A good friend once suggested that the mindset behind the "focus on the hits" approach to the "standards" is that such stations are simply going for the lowest hanging fruit on the tree - and they figure that those who crave something more beyond that are going to listen in anyway no matter what because, where else on the dial are the old geezers going to go?

My guess is that probably was a valid approach when mass media was dominant and there were few alternatives. But today there ARE alternatives - Internet radio being only one. And while older people are a bit further behind the curve when it comes to adopting new technologies, they have been online in great numbers for several years now. They DO have alternatives - and the only thing that prevents more people from using them is a lack of awareness that they exist plus a certain amount of built-in inertia towards changing one's routine. That's why those mid-day infomercials mentioned earlier in this thread are suicidal - that will DEFINITELY motivate people to look for and try alternatives. And once they find them - well, they probably won't come back.

On the other hand, I certainly do not mean to be disrespectful of Jaan McCoy. In his defense, he has obviously knows SOMETHING about what he has been doing by virtue of his staying power in an industry where that, by itself, has always been an accomplishment. The man still has a paying job playing "standards" in an industry where many highly talented individuals playing for more commercially viable formats have been forced to move on to other things. Once again, that is an accomplishment. And, by contrast, I am just some nobody who programs an Internet station that has never made a penny or even tried to make a penny.

So let's for a moment just assume that my questions are ill-informed and that McCoy is right and that IS the best way to be successful with a "standards" station. But successful - at what? Appealing to an aging audience that is, sadly, only going to get smaller with the passage of time?

If that's what KAAM's game plan is - appeal to that older audience and make what money they can from it now and, when it is no longer around, move on to something else - then MAYBE it makes sense.

But I DO know this much: if you are a person who is passionate about post World War II standards type music and wishes to see it still around on the radio dial with an appreciative modern audience after its original generation of fans has passed on - then the McCoy approach is TOXIC and will basically ensure that the music dies when its generation dies.

To illustrate my point, imagine if I were to use the McCoy approach when I program Radio Dismuke which plays recordings from the late 1920s and early 1930s. Yes - you don't have to say it. I am FULLY aware that there is a difference of NIGHT and DAY between a hobbyist programing an Internet station and programing a commercially viable terrestrial station. I know that the two are NOT the same. But please follow me on this for a moment while I made a wider point.

The approximate cut off date for the recordings I program is 1935. That means someone who was 15 when my newest recordings were made turns 90 this year. That means that most people who are now in nursing homes are too young to have strong memories of most of the recordings that I play.

Obviously, it would be pretty pointless for me to program the station based around people from the music's original audience wanting to relive their youth. Most people who listen to my station were born well AFTER the music's heyday - which will also be the case at some point in the future for any "standards" station that might still be on the air.

The fact is that the people who listen to my station don't CARE whether a particular recording was or was not a big hit in its day. They judge each recording based on its own musical merits.

If I were to rework the format and exclude most or all recordings that were not big hits in their day - well, I would not only be throwing out a LOT of really great stuff, I would be tossing out many of the very recordings that people gush about when they email me. It would mean tossing out many truly OUTSTANDING recordings by so-called "territory bands" which only had a regional following at the time. It would mean throwing out recordings by some of the very best bands of the period which happened to be segregated black bands which were not considered "respectable" in many circles and tended not to have hit recordings.

SOME recordings become hits because they are truly excellent. But, ultimately, a hit recording is one that has been successfully marketed AND which appeals to a very wide common denominator, which sometimes means the LOWEST common denominator.

If I were to follow the McCoy approach with Radio Dismuke, some of the most interesting and most compelling recordings would no longer be in my playlist. To be sure, many fine recordings would remain. But, following the McCoy approach, I would then play those same recordings in a tight playlist over and over again year after year because, after all, what constituted a "hit" back in the '20s and '30s is forever set in stone.

The result would be that, after awhile, the station would start to sound very stale and almost become a sort of caricature of itself - which, in my judgment, describes KAAM before I stopped listening to it. That is NOT an effective way to present a forgotten genre of music to a new generation of listeners.

The people who helped make particular records "hits" in the '20s and '30s often had FAR more conservative musical tastes than the individuals who purchased the more obscure recordings I feature. But it is precisely those "hot" dance band recordings and jazz recordings that didn't always sell all that well that modern audiences tend to go wild over the most and which are now considered to be classics by modern fans of such music.

The people who listen to my station view the music I present though very different eyes and bring with them very different experiences than the people who purchased the 78 rpm records when they were new.

And given that I operate on a shoestring budget with zero revenue and zero promotional budget and have become known mostly through word of mouth, I have had at least SOME success in doing what I do. For the 30 day period ending March 1, the station had 80,692 tune-ins and 50,977 listening hours. My stream on the LoudCity.com network was in the top 10 percent of the 13,695 stations available in the Shoutcast directory in February - and if one adds my smaller audience from the simulcast on Live365.com which is NOT tracked by Shoutcast, it would be in the top 8 percent. That's jack diddly squat by terrestrial standards, I know. But in the realm I operate, being in the top 8 percent spinning 75 year old plus 78 rpm records by artists few people alive have even heard of - well, I am not displeased. If I had the money to promote it more, the numbers would be much better as the audience I have is but a small fraction of its potential.

Again, McCoy and KAAM operate in a completely different realm than I do. They have a payroll to meet and a lot of other overhead that has to be paid every month. Their FIRST priority HAS to be bringing in revenue.

My priority is different. Ever since I discovered '20s and '30s music as a child, I have regarded the fact that so few people are familiar with it as a profound cultural injustice - and when the Internet came along, I decided to put my personal collection to use to help correct that injustice. For me, it is a sort of private, personal crusade.

I am mostly lukewarm about post war "standards" type recordings. But there ARE undoubtedly people out there who are as passionate about "standards" as I am about my music. And such a person, undoubtedly, would consider it to be very tragic if the music were to die with its generation as my music died decades ago long before its generation even reached old age. I have no idea whether McCoy is such a person or not - having listened to him in years past, I certainly thinks he has an authentic love for it. But if the music he plays is to have a future, then it MUST be presented in a way that appeals to younger listeners. Doing so does NOT mean going "modern." It means taking a fresh look at old recordings with new eyes from the perspective of a generation that is too young to be blinded by the generational biases and stereotypes that dismiss such music as "square" or "old people's music." It means selecting recordings which COUNTER the stereotypes, NOT the ones which tend to perpetuate them. It means selecting recordings based on the fact that they DESERVE to remain alive - not that they appealed to the mass market which existed decades ago.

They stopped making the music I am passionate about over 70 years ago. But, for me, it is NOT a static thing and it NEVER grows old. For me, the ADVENTURE of discovering it has continued unabated since childhood. I am constantly acquiring 78 rpms records - and when I do, I put them in my station and my audience gets to share in that discovery as well. And it would be impossible for me to live long enough to run out of "new" 78 rpms to discover. The two major discographies that cover the period, Brian Rust's American Dance Band Discography and his Jazz Records are both around 1,800 pages each with rather small typeface. And that is only the AMERICAN recordings. The recordings from England and Europe from that period were outstanding as well. And the amount of records made during my era is DWARFED by the amount that was available during the era covered by KAAM when records were MUCH cheaper and there was a proliferation of small, independent labels.

That spirit of regarding the music as an ADVENTURE and as a process of DISCOVERY is something that I do NOT pick up on when listening to KAAM. But that is EXACTLY what it is going to take if they wish to broaden the appeal of the music they present. I am NOT suggesting that they totally abandon the "hits" or be as loose on playlist size as I am or do ANYTHING to jeopardize those aspects of their existing business model which work. What I AM suggesting is getting someone on staff who is PASSIONATE about the music that is being played and who ALREADY spends a great deal of time constantly looking for new and wonderful examples of it and just CANNOT WAIT until he gets a chance to share his latest outstanding all but forgotten discovery with the rest of the world by playing on the radio. I am suggesting that they do it in ADDITION to what they are doing how and which works for them. It would ENERGIZE that which has become tired and stale. I guarantee you if they did that, the station would not only be more appealing to a wider audience - the old geezers will enjoy it too.

Like I said in a previous posting, I am notoriously long winded - especially on subjects I find interesting.
 
Just a brief comment, I'm guessing the profit motive is why there are so few , if there are any, Beautiful Music stations anymore. Ratings weren't a problem, as far as I know. KMEZ was a top 10 station in it's final days. Standards & Beautiful Music, done well, would be great additions to the market.
 
dfaulkner said:
Just a brief comment, I'm guessing the profit motive is why there are so few , if there are any, Beautiful Music stations anymore. Ratings weren't a problem, as far as I know. KMEZ was a top 10 station in it's final days. Standards & Beautiful Music, done well, would be great additions to the market.

The issue was age, not ratings. Nearly all the listening had moved to 55+, and that is not a marketable demo... again demonstrating why 12+ numbers are next to useless.
 
dismuke said:
McCoy used to tell me, "You should never be too far away from a hit."

But I fail to see exactly WHY that is wise advice when it comes to playing music that is OLD.

The error of the rest of your argument rests on the introduction of the age of the song to the term "hit."

"Hit" in radio means any song people want to hear on the radio today. Age of a song is not a consideration in considering a song as a hit or not. Of course, those of us who are programmers know that most older songs can take a bit less repetition to avoid burning it out... but every song you play should be a hit or a new song that the PD thinks will be a hit.

I can see why it makes sense when one is playing MODERN music because the list of recordings which are considered "hits" is a moving target constantly evolving and changing. By the time a recording becomes shopworn and loses its luster, the station has moved on to something else.

The problem with that notion when it comes to OLD music is the fact that the list of recordings which were considered "hits" back in the day is forever static and never changes. Stick with the philosophy you attribute to McCoy for very long and it will eventually grow repetitious and stale -

The issue is that major market stations do ongoing music research; they don't use old charts as an indication of "hittiness." Again, it is about how much people want to hear a song on the radio today.

Now, I DO understand that people like to hear music which is familiar to them. But if that were true in the extreme, music would NEVER evolve - people would listen to the same exact recordings forever because it is familiar. If you think about it, most people like to hear a certain MIXTURE of both familiar recordings as well as new ones.

If you look at the shares of classic hits (and even more, cume shares), classic rock and similar stations, you wil see that a significant group of people like stations that play no currents. And even traditional AC and similar formats play very few currents, and are very late adding new music. Even CHRs only play a song or two an hour that is new and potentially unfamiliar.

In all these cases, programmers have found that any more new music causes loss of TSL, and if there is a direct competitor, loss of cume. New music is seen, universally, as a necessary evil which is both dangerous in the close time frame yet needed to keep some (but not all) formats fresh.

My experience is that most people's musical tastes tend to BROADEN as they get older. It is very YOUNG people who tend to be almost dogmatically devoted to a narrow range and are borderline contemptuous of everything else. As people grow older, they acquire new tastes and learn to appreciate stuff which they were once indifferent to or perhaps even once disliked. That certainly has been true for me.

There are hundreds of books and thousands of doctoral dissertations that show that humans develop their musical preferences as a kind of imprint in early adolescence, and as the individual matures, the taste may broaden but is always related to the early experience. A teen who likes CHR, but grows up where country is widely listened to has enough of that imprinting to make them potential country listeners later in life. Otherwise, people of this particular kind move from CHR to either rock or AC and later to oldies.


My priority is different. Ever since I discovered '20s and '30s music as a child, I have regarded the fact that so few people are familiar with it as a profound cultural injustice - and when the Internet came along, I decided to put my personal collection to use to help correct that injustice. For me, it is a sort of private, personal crusade.

You see, you broadcast to promote a genre while most broadcasters do so to make money. To make money, we have a different set of criteria and different visions of programming than you. I'm sure you recognize that only a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of people will ever listen to music they did not grow up on or evolve into. You may gain some converts, but in a sense, your mission is the same as a religious teaching and preaching station, not that of a mass appeal commercial station.

Stations that try to introduce people to music they do not know in anything but controlled amounts will die in today's competitive envoronment.
 
D.E. says:

Stations that try to introduce people to music they do not know in anything but controlled amounts will die in today's competitive envoronment.

I say: You obviously know your stuff, David, but I think there's a missing ingredient. That would be audience engagement. I believe you could play a broader range of music, and tunes that are not familiar, if they are placed in some kind of context. I think a song can be 'sold'. It has to be more than a dee-jay saying 'That was Trouser Press from the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah band's first album' or 'Here's Bob Seger's Kathmandu'. I think you should give me reason to care; context, interesting information, some sort of 'entrance'. That's my biggest criticism of KXT. Most of the time, the music is extruded like sausage. Give me a reason to care.
Didn't MTV turn Tony Bennett into a big Gen X star a couple of decades ago? How did THAT happen?
 
DavidEduardo said:
You see, you broadcast to promote a genre while most broadcasters do so to make money. To make money, we have a different set of criteria and different visions of programming than you.

Indeed. And the difference between the two objectives is HUGE. I get to enjoy a luxury that huge corporate owners with very, very deep pockets simply cannot afford: it is not necessary for me to make a penny off the thing. Not so with a corporation. Thus I can indulge in all sorts of "wouldn't it be nice if...." and "this will make it better..." type thinking.

You may gain some converts, but in a sense, your mission is the same as a religious teaching and preaching station, not that of a mass appeal commercial station.

That is actually a good way of putting it.

On the other hand, look at the impact that various religious teachers, preachers and movements have had on both our culture and its politics in recent years. My point is that existing trends and patterns of behavior CAN be potentially changed if someone were to make an effort to do so. And current trends and patterns came into being because someone MADE them happen.

Look at the early FM rock stations. As someone pointed out in another thread, the FM dial back in the 1960s was considered a commercial wasteland. That made it possible for worthless air time to be handed over to a bunch of mostly labor of love type programs - and music radio has never been the same since. All great world changing movements, all great ideologies were, at one time, started by a lone individual or a tiny handful of individuals who refused to accept some aspect of the status quo as "normal."

As for what I am doing, I am where I need to be - it clearly makes more sense to do it on the Internet. It would be a total waste for me to raise money to acquire a terrestrial station with limited signal range verses what that money could buy in terms of promoting an Internet station with no geographical limitations. And it is entirely possible that the Internet is where "standards" and other formats such as smooth jazz or classical ultimately need to be.

And something I am curious about is whether the status quo and programing realities you detailed in your posting will continue to be operative in a world where a new generation will, for the first time ever, have tens of thousands of niche formats and genres of every variety imaginable to choose from with equal ease of access. Much of what you describe is the product of a mindset that grew out of a mass media dominated world which is VERY limiting in terms of what most people end up getting exposed to. But mass media, as many people here painfully know first hand, is dying. Will those sort of mindsets persist in the increasingly "long tail" niche world of the future? Is it possible that "freaks" such as myself who have a passion for stuff which was previously NOT viable could end up being ahead of our time and perhaps trendsetters for the future?
 
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