Playlists & Local DJ's ?'s

[BigHoss]

I am not a radio pro...just a pro listener I guess. To date myself I have heard the dj's of the 50's in So.Cal live before but pretty much grew up in the 60-70's on the Texas Gulfcoast. In the 70-80's I'd hit 101.1 in Houston and let it fade until I could pickup 101.3 in Corpus as I traveled up and down the coast working.

So, that is why today I prefer antique rock as I call it from the 60-70's and wish there was more of it.

I guess I am a dying breed who likes broad play lists and local live dj's, who can comment on local things. I doubt I will ever be a satellite user for radio. I just tune in one station and don't like messing with it after that. Most of my radios are older than 20-30 years old. I am old school for sure.

Do I have much hope with this type of format surviving much longer? In Houston it is about dead with all the termoil of late. I know Dean & Rog are coming back, being picked up at 107.5 but....

And why are the playlist so short? Man! it seems like 20-30 songs over and over. 107.5 especially. Why is that?

Thanks for any input...an old time workin' stif 'preciates it!

Robert in Houston

 

[radiopropd]

IMHO, limited playlists are due to corporate big wigs limiting the playlists to the most popular songs - what they would call safe songs and songs that most people know. My problem with this is that there are so many other good songs that could be played, but aren't. It's a problem when you hear a song that, IMO, should be limited to the number of times it's played - when you hear the same song within 24 hours on a classic hits/rock format, it's a problem. While I like 107.5 khits, their playlist is lost on me as I tire of hearing the same songs in their rotation.

KILT is another station I listen to on occassion - and last night when coming home from work @ my new job/career, I heard a song that I hadn't heard on the air on quite some time - Big & Rich Save a Horse Ride a Cowboy - it was a nice change.

The bottom line is that program directors/music directors are no longer directing programs/music - they havn't been for the longest time - IMO, they are nothing more than order takers - and yes, I was one of them, an order taker not allowed to truly have a playlist. There was a time that my classic rock playlist was 800 songs - and my country playlist was in excess of 1200 songs, but then all that changed, just like radio as a whole has changed.

While I miss being on the air, I don't miss the uncertainty that comes with it, nor do I miss being a radio gypsy trying to find that elusive perfect gig, nor dealing with the corporate types that truly don't understand radio, they're only interested in profits, and not serving the public.

 

[BigHoss]

Radiopropd,

Thanks for insight. About what I figured. W/ k-hits I have to switch after about 2 hours. it is just too hard to take.

kkrw would occationally do an a-z thing and no-repeat days and I remember people would comment on how much they loved it. When they did those I'd have the radio on all the time.

Dean & Rog used to comment about it all the time. Wonder ifr they will be able to make some changes when they arrive in June?

My kids (they're grown) said they would load me up an iPod with all the songs I like and havn't heard in a thousand years and never hear the same one in a month! But I like live radio, don't mind the commercials, and apperciate the live local dj's making comments about things around town. It's good to know something has blown up in Pasadena!

But I think an iPod with some Santana, TheDead, Byrds, Cream, Stix, Hendrix, Joplin, and Merle Haggard, Cash, Nash, Pride, & Twitty too may be in my future

 

[davideduardo]

IMHO, limited playlists are due to corporate big wigs limiting the playlists to the most popular songs - what they would call safe songs and songs that most people know.

That's a myth.

Actually, it's the listeners who determine what is played, by research on each and every potential song during which a group or "sample" of listeners votes on how much or how little they want to hear each song on the air, based on a snippet or hook of each song. The songs most everybody likes get played, but the ones that would cause some listeners to go away are not.

The bottom line is that program directors/music directors are no longer directing programs/music - they havn't been for the longest time -

True. For most formats, the listeners have always selected the songs. For Top 40, going back to the early 50's, record sales and juke box play dictated what was played. Today, it is more direct listener level research, but it's for the same purpose... to get the listener input rather than having some guy in an office pick the songs.

When you actually ask the listeners, you find that there are not 1200 country hits everyone in a station's target demo wants to hear... in fact, at 1200, you are probably talking about 400 or so toxic songs.

 

[foursider]

Well, I'm all for listener opinion But, the problem is that when these listener groups are called together to give their opinions on what songs they like; they are only allowed to hear the hooks from the limited playlist that is presented to them. Most, if asked, would love to hear some of the older stuff. Just goes to show you how much the listeners really matter these days.

 

[davideduardo]

Well, I'm all for listener opinion But, the problem is that when these listener groups are called together to give their opinions on what songs they like; they are only allowed to hear the hooks from the limited playlist that is presented to them. Most, if asked, would love to hear some of the older stuff. Just goes to show you how much the listeners really matter these days.

That's not true, either. PDs are constantly testing "what if" songs which may be songs that stopped testing well, songs from newer or older years, secondary cuts, etc. The fact is that stations find that there is always a "sweet" library size, but they test over and over because songs can cycle in and out of rotation.

I've done tests as big as 1500 songs, and tested as many as 2500 titles in a single year, meaning well over 1500 more than score well enough to get get played. In todays PPM environment, songs that irritate any segment of the audience can be seen to be tune-outs and very toxic, so lists may even get shorter.

 

[BigHoss]

David,

So, I guess that 'back-in-the-day' the playlists weren't really any longer? Just seemed like it to us as it was top-40 'new' I was listening to?

And there must be some kind of method to choose the list. And one person's toxic is another's dream, so majority rules.

I just wish K-Hits would expand a little.

And what's your guess, will D&R be able to change their list some?

Thanks for yall's time.

Robert

 

[stan]

While I respect David's view on radio today, I have to agree that it sounds like that all this 'testing' results in a truncated radio playlist that only contains safe songs that offend no one. So if you grew up listening to what we now label as classic rock, you will eliminate any songs related to social issues, the war in Vietnam, etc. You certainly will eliminate songs with four letter words, because God knows someone would probably complain in this era of super sensitive ears and emotions.

I could 'test' tens of thousands of songs, but the testing method described leads to the desired results due to the flaws inherent in this method. If we used this methodology in our engineering work, we would be brought before the board for incompetence.

 

[davideduardo]

While I respect David's view on radio today, I have to agree that it sounds like that all this 'testing' results in a truncated radio playlist that only contains safe songs that offend no one.

"Offending" is not part of the process. People either like or dislike or are neutral about songs. The procedure determins which are which.

So if you grew up listening to what we now label as classic rock, you will eliminate any songs related to social issues, the war in Vietnam, etc.

No, you don't. If people still want to hear those songs, you play them. If they don't, you don't play them.

You certainly will eliminate songs with four letter words, because God knows someone would probably complain in this era of super sensitive ears and emotions.

That has nothing to do with testing. Doing so is illegal, resulting in fines or putting the license in jeopardy.

I could 'test' tens of thousands of songs, but the testing method described leads to the desired results due to the flaws inherent in this method.

What flaws are inherent in having people listen and score the songs you play or might want to play?

If we used this methodology in our engineering work, we would be brought before the board for incompetence.

You can't engineer taste... and that is what music testing is about... determining likes and dislikes. It certainly is not the same thing as designing the Burj Dubai.

 

[aunti-terrestrial]

I loved the time when the consultant swore up one side and down the other that "And I Ran" by A Flock Of Seagulls belonged on the rock station because it "tested well" in the age demo in the auditorium. The hue and cry from the phone lines was immediate, overwhelming, and 100% hostile. Unfortunately, when listenership drops off and the numbers tank, it's never the consultant whose head rolls. They just bowl the PD under the bus and lay the blame elsewhere.

 

[Mediafrog+]

This discussion brings up the unpleasant truth: The large majority of the radio listening audience is set in their ways and is content to listen to the same old crap over...and over...and over. They don't want anything new, or anything different. They want same ol', same ol', because it is familiar and comfortable. Radio programmers know this, and pander to it. And you can't blame them--they are giving the greatest number of people exactly what they want. It may be garbage, but it sells--and the advertisers follow.

The rest of the audience--those with eclectic tastes, a sense of adventure and discovery, or who are just sick and tired of traditional radio's repetitive and boring playlists--have moved on to satellite radio, internet webcasts, or just load up their Ipods. Radio programmers know this as well, but the numbers generally aren't sufficient to make much of an impact on OTA radio, although you are seeing some influence on the selection of music for HD subchannels.

 

[aunti-terrestrial]

Unfortunately Mediafrog, it's about to get worse, if possible.

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,124475.msg1012214.html#msg1012214

 

[davideduardo]

I loved the time when the consultant swore up one side and down the other that "And I Ran" by A Flock Of Seagulls belonged on the rock station because it "tested well" in the age demo in the auditorium. The hue and cry from the phone lines was immediate, overwhelming, and 100% hostile. Unfortunately, when listenership drops off and the numbers tank, it's never the consultant whose head rolls. They just bowl the PD under the bus and lay the blame elsewhere.

Every station that tests should know that their audience also listens to 3, 4 and maybe 5 other staitons. The listener knows that they go to different staitons for diffrerent moods and different types of music.

Unfortunately, some programmers don't know that. So they use the "it tests" mantra for everything, without thinking about the "it fits" part of the programming process. Knowing what is inside your area and what is outside is no different than calling a foul ball at a baseball game. To a good PD, it is obvious...

In most cases I see, the consultant partipates in research, but the PD should be the final voice in cases like this since the PD works with the staiton day to day, knows the competitors, the sharing percentages, and knows their own station's sound. If the PD does not know and "get" these things, a whole batallion of experts ain't gonna' help.

 

[aunti-terrestrial]

Actually, Dave, the PD fought that add, but the consultant insisted and won, if you can call it a victory.

I'm sure you meant to type "station." Repeatedly.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, Dave, the PD fought that add, but the consultant insisted and won, if you can call it a victory.

It all depends on so many factors, starting with management's confidence in the PD vs. blind faith in a consultant. S**t happens. That's how we get Edsels and New Coke and all the other marketing blunders... even the best people make mistakes.

To wit:

I'm sure you meant to type "station." Repeatedly.

Yes, I did. Repeatedly. But I am mildly dyslexic and can't see that kind of error. Thanks for kindly pointing out my disability.

 

[aunti-terrestrial]

Actually, Dave, the PD fought that add, but the consultant insisted and won, if you can call it a victory.

It all depends on so many factors, starting with management's confidence in the PD vs. blind faith in a consultant. S**t happens. That's how we get Edsels and New Coke and all the other marketing blunders... even the best people make mistakes.

To wit:

I'm sure you meant to type "station." Repeatedly.

Yes, I did. Repeatedly. But I am mildly dyslexic and can't see that kind of error. Thanks for kindly pointing out my disability.

You know as well as anyone that a PD who argues too strenuously with the company's consultant will soon find his job on a short list. Unfortunately, as I have observed many times, consultants who continue to make boneheaded "mistakes" such as the one I described don't actually suffer the consequences of steering the station in the wrong direction. They simply point to the fact that A Flock Of Seagulls tests well in the auditorium, so if listenership diminishes, it must be the fault of the program director, the staff, the promotions kids, the listeners, the front desk receptionist. Anybody but the overpaid bonehead who insisted on the wrong songs in the first place.

As for the other, you're quite welcome. I'm happy to oblige you, in fact. My son's a dyslexic, although his teachers always insisted that he make the effort to double-check his work in an effort to manage the condition, as it is entirely possible for young people to learn to do with the improved methods of education these days. The more people who are aware of the disability, the better, so I applaud your honesty in sharing your pain with the board. Happy Easter.

 

[BigHoss]

Thank you all for a very enlightening discussion.  I did not know all this behind-the-scenes stuff was going on.  I knew it wasn’t just a simple deal but never this complicated.  I guess one could compare a little to TV as a lot of pretty good shows get shot down for mediocre (and I am kind here) ones.  Majority rules there too. ‘those with eclectic tastes, a sense of adventure and discovery’ and want good TV, move to other sources.

One last thing, does anyone think Dean & Rog will be able to change that playlist at K-Hits any at all?  What kind of pull will they have?  Just curious.

Thanks again….
Robert

PS. Auntie, please do not get me started on our fine state of education these days!  There too it is consultants and standardized tests for the masses.  Everyone better fit in to that mold or go hang yourself.

 

[piggy]

One last thing, does anyone think Dean & Rog will be able to change that playlist at K-Hits any at all? What kind of pull will they have? Just curious.

It's safe to assume that they'll be able to play anything they want, as long as it was placed on the music log by the program director and they play the log exactly in order.

With the exception of some specialty shows, no DJ has picked their own music in about 40 years.

As for playlist size, I used to whine about tight lists and no variety... then I got satellite in 2001. Then I started getting frustrated trying to find a song that I knew on satellite because the lists are so deep... Be careful what you wish for.

 

[BigHoss]

I got it! An iPod that plays then pauses when there is live comment on the radio.

Off to the patent office!

 

[One Who Knows]

While I respect David's view on radio today, I have to agree that it sounds like that all this 'testing' results in a truncated radio playlist that only contains safe songs that offend no one. So if you grew up listening to what we now label as classic rock, you will eliminate any songs related to social issues, the war in Vietnam, etc. You certainly will eliminate songs with four letter words, because God knows someone would probably complain in this era of super sensitive ears and emotions.

I could 'test' tens of thousands of songs, but the testing method described leads to the desired results due to the flaws inherent in this method. If we used this methodology in our engineering work, we would be brought before the board for incompetence.

Well...how could you play songs with certain 4 letter words, when the FCC will fine up to $325,000 for letting them get on the air?