Portable HD may be too expensive

[700WLW]

"Currency Converter"

1 U.K.£ = 1.9452 USD

http://finance.yahoo.com/currency?u

"Portable DAB receivers"

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/dabreceivers.html

"A look at DAB"

"Interference on DAB is different to the type of interference you'll notice on FM radio. Instead of hiss and crackle, the symptoms are digital breakup (like when your mobile phone starts to cut out), or a sort of warbling, sometimes likened to being underwater. For information on ways to improve your digital radio reception, take a look at the BBC Reception site. Other tips for improving reception include: using a good external aerial, keeping your radio away from electrical interference, and for internal radios, keeping them near a window, or with the aerial pointing the direction of the transmitter, as high up, and with as few walls in the way as possible. Still no luck? Perhaps try taking the radio to another location (friends house?) to try reception in a few other areas. For help handling problems where there's no reception... Another option, of course, is Internet radio."

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/dab.html

IF portable HD becomes a reality, and we use portable DAB receivers in the UK, as a bench-mark, the price of portable HD will never approach that of typical $10 - $25 portable analog AM/FM radios, and will be too expensive to sell in-mass - the cheapest portable/hand-held DAB radio is $70 USD. Looks like, reception is also an issue, and yes, digital radio behaves exaclty as digital cell phones. And, DAB is FM only.

 

[700WLW]

"Digital radio sounds worse than FM?"

"In the UK the transition to digital radio means... it sounds worse than ever. At least for the audio enthusiasts. Whoops."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/01/digital_radio_s.html

There's the kicker !

 

[Mike Walker]

Digital radio in the UK frequently does sound worse than analog FM. First of all, unlike the US, the UK has a stellar reputation for audio quality. Virtually all talk programming there is in pristine stereo (for instance). But secondarily, they've had DAB for years. They use an older Mpeg Layer 2 codec, which is far less efficient than the HDC codec used in the US (a cousin of aac+).

We waited, and have superior audio quality as a result. A 96kbps HDC stream is lightyears ahead of a 128kbps mpeg 2 stream!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Digital radio in the UK frequently does sound worse than analog FM. First of all, unlike the US, the UK has a stellar reputation for audio quality. Virtually all talk programming there is in pristine stereo (for instance). But secondarily, they've had DAB for years. They use an older Mpeg Layer 2 codec, which is far less efficient than the HDC codec used in the US (a cousin of aac+).

We waited, and have superior audio quality as a result. A 96kbps HDC stream is lightyears ahead of a 128kbps mpeg 2 stream!

Using all the total available 96kbps for the HD1 stream (which copies the FM's analog audio, and just splits off existing analog listeners from the same station) means no HD radio "killer app." HD2 or HD3 multicasts.

 

[Mike Walker]

That's true Supercaster, which probably rules it out for commercial stations looking to add as many revenue streams as possible. Fine with me, I listen mostly to public radio, where full 96kbps streams aren't rare at all, especially on classical stations. "Mmmmm, purty"...said the man channeling Homer Simpson.

 

[700WLW]

Digital radio in the UK frequently does sound worse than analog FM. First of all, unlike the US, the UK has a stellar reputation for audio quality. Virtually all talk programming there is in pristine stereo (for instance). But secondarily, they've had DAB for years. They use an older Mpeg Layer 2 codec, which is far less efficient than the HDC codec used in the US (a cousin of aac+).

We waited, and have superior audio quality as a result. A 96kbps HDC stream is lightyears ahead of a 128kbps mpeg 2 stream!

"Portable DAB receivers"

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/dabreceivers.html

Check this out:

Aria A-3000 DAB Radio: battery life at least 10 hours.
Ferguson FRG810D DAB Radio: battery life 18 hours.
Perstel DR 201 DAB Radio: battery life 8 hours.

Yea, consumers will love that - heck, my Sony analog-tuned lasts 45 hours on two AAs, the RS digital PLL radios last 35 hours on 4 AAs, and our beloved Grundig S350 lasts forever on 6 DDs !

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Hold on a minute. You can't pluck a list of receivers from another country, apply the US Currency exchange rate, and claim that the receivers are too expensive to be viable in that country based on the cost in the US.

I was recently in the U.K. and looked at all sorts of receivers at Dixon's and Harrod's. DAB receivers were very competitively priced. I think the cheapest AM/FM radio I saw (of poor quality, too) was around £15, and the lowest DAB receiver was around £33. That's not an extraordinary expense for people who live there. Converted to US currency, $27 for a cheaply-made AM/FM radio seems as absurd as $57 or $70 for a DAB receiver.

 

[700WLW]

Hold on a minute. You can't pluck a list of receivers from another country, apply the US Currency exchange rate, and claim that the receivers are too expensive to be viable in that country based on the cost in the US.

I was recently in the U.K. and looked at all sorts of receivers at Dixon's and Harrod's. DAB receivers were very competitively priced. I think the cheapest AM/FM radio I saw (of poor quality, too) was around £15, and the lowest DAB receiver was around £33. That's not an extraordinary expense for people who live there. Converted to US currency, $27 for a cheaply-made AM/FM radio seems as absurd as $57 or $70 for a DAB receiver.

"Portable DAB receivers"

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/dabreceivers.html

It is perfectly reasonable to use DAB receivers in the UK, as a bench-mark for possible future portable HD. From the portable DAB receiver list, which is very extensive, the cheapest is 35£, or $70 USD. Excellent analog AM/FM radios can be had for $10, as with my Sony ICF-S10MK2:

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cu...630159-9046047?ie=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics

As a matter of fact, during a Christmas visit to Best Buy, they had removed all the table-top AM/FM radios, which were displayed at the very rear of the store, and replaced them with other merchandise; in the front of the store, by the cell phones, were many new Sony Walkman and other hand-held analog AM/FM radios. Since consumers have zero interest in HD Radio, they certainly are not going to spend, at the minimum, $70 for portable HD Radio (and that is assuming portable HD will be included in hand-held radios, not just boom-box sized). What will be amusing, is when these portable HD radios are returned for lousy reception and boring, repetitive HD channel programming.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

It is not reasonable to take a unit from the U.K., convert it to US Currency, then use that as a comparison (the "70" part of the equation) while taking a US receiver of $10 and using it in the other part of the equation to concoct a 70/10 comparison. That's like saying Premium gasoline is US$7/gallon in Italy, and Regular unleaded is 33 cents-US/gallon in Venezuela, so Premium gasoline costs 21 times as much as Regular.

As for "excellent" AM/FM receivers for $10? That's just hullabaloo. I have plenty of sub-$20 receivers around the house, and whether it's because of poor sensitivity or absolutely atrocious selectivity, they all pretty much suck. I tried the cheapest DAB receiver at Dixons. It worked inside the store, and it was not of poor quality like a run-of-the-mill AM/FM pocket radio.

What is legitimate is taking a 33£ DAB handheld in the U.K. and comparing it to a 15£ AM/FM handheld available from the same store in the U.K. That produces an apples vs. apples equation of 33/15. Exchange rates are not an absolute formula for what specific items "cost" internationally.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

As a matter of fact, during a Christmas visit to Best Buy, they had removed all the table-top AM/FM radios, which were displayed at the very rear of the store, and replaced them with other merchandise; in the front of the store, by the cell phones, were many new Sony Walkman and other hand-held analog AM/FM radios.

Best Buy made a corporate decision to significantly reduce their inventory of analog AM/FM and HD Radio receivers. The main reason is not because of returns. It is because selling XM and Sirius subscriptions is more profitable to them.

 

[700WLW]

It is not reasonable to take a unit from the U.K., convert it to US Currency, then use that as a comparison (the "70" part of the equation) while taking a US receiver of $10 and using it in the other part of the equation to concoct a 70/10 comparison. That's like saying Premium gasoline is US$7/gallon in Italy, and Regular unleaded is 33 cents-US/gallon in Venezuela, so Premium gasoline costs 21 times as much as Regular.

As for "excellent" AM/FM receivers for $10? That's just hullabaloo. I have plenty of sub-$20 receivers around the house, and whether it's because of poor sensitivity or absolutely atrocious selectivity, they all pretty much suck. I tried the cheapest DAB receiver at Dixons. It worked inside the store, and it was not of poor quality like a run-of-the-mill AM/FM pocket radio.

What is legitimate is taking a 33£ DAB handheld in the U.K. and comparing it to a 15£ AM/FM handheld available from the same store in the U.K. That produces an apples vs. apples equation of 33/15. Exchange rates are not an absolute formula for what specific items "cost" internationally.

Taking DAB receivers from the UK, as a bench-mark, for possible future HD radios is perfectly reasonable - no doubt, digital DAB/HD portable radios are/will be much more expensive than analog radios. How can you disagree with RadioIntel's assessment of the Sony ICF-S10MK2 radio, and the 42 customer reviews on Amazon, where the Sony received 4 stars overall, when you don't even own the radio. The Sony ICF-S10MK2 is ranked 6th on Amazons's bestsellers electronics list for portable AM/FM radios; the Sony Walkman is ranked ninth, is only $15.00, and has received 4 1/2 stars overall. The best, any HD radios have done on Amazon's rankings, is 2000th.

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

I guess, that you know better than RadioIntel !

 

[PhilJSmith67]

First of all, that review focuses solely on AM. Second, I have several Sony radios, one of which is a Walkman, and I would say that on AM they are "good" (not excellent) and on FM they range from fair to good. None of then can pick up weaker first-adjacent stations where I live. I have other makes of radios that can, but they are above $15 (I thought we were talking 10 bucks here, BTW).

You just don't understand the economics behind of what I was trying to say, and that's okay. Yes, taking DAB receivers from the UK to use as a loose benchmark for HD Radios here in the US is fine. However, you have to make the comparison between units available within the same country, otherwise the resultant ratio is complete nonsense. Why not compare the price of an AM/FM radio from a third-world country where it might cost $50 in USD?

 

[700WLW]

First of all, that review focuses solely on AM. Second, I have several Sony radios, one of which is a Walkman, and I would say that on AM they are "good" (not excellent) and on FM they range from fair to good. None of then can pick up weaker first-adjacent stations where I live. I have other makes of radios that can, but they are above $15 (I thought we were talking 10 bucks here, BTW).

You just don't understand the economics behind of what I was trying to say, and that's okay. Yes, taking DAB receivers from the UK to use as a loose benchmark for HD Radios here in the US is fine. However, you have to make the comparison between units available within the same country, otherwise the resultant ratio is complete nonsense. Why not compare the price of an AM/FM radio from a third-world country where it might cost $50 in USD?

Sorry, my bad - I didn't explain, that the Sony is used just for nighttime AM DXing, not FM - for listening to music, obvioulsy a $10 hand-held radio is no good, but that is what the car stereo is for. With the Sony from Maryland, I get WBBM, WGN, WSB, WLW, and CKLW, usually as locals; with some fading, I get WHO, WCCO and once KRLD, just with the internal ferrite-bar antenna - not too shabby ! With Best Buy getting rid of their table-top AM/FM units (including, the Receptor), sticking their AM/FM boom-boxes in back, then displaying many hand-held Walkman-type radios up with the cell phones, is that consumers have moved onto other technologies and just buy smaller radios for convience, such as, for walking/exercising - consumers like portability, now. I agree, that comparing radios between the UK and potentially in the US is not exact science, but I still think, it is a pretty good indication, where portable HD radios would fall; plus, look at how expensive table-top HD is, compared to table-top analog AM/FM radios. Economically, the UK and the US are pretty close, so I believe the assumption is not all that out-of-line - but, enough of that...

 

[Mike Walker]

Everybody gets tremendous skip at night on the cheapest clock radio at Wal Mart. Try receiving a 500 watt station from 200 miles away IN THE DAYTIME, and you'll see the value of a communications receiver...not to mention a big freakin' outdoor longwire!

 

[700WLW]

Everybody gets tremendous skip at night on the cheapest clock radio at Wal Mart. Try receiving a 500 watt station from 200 miles away IN THE DAYTIME, and you'll see the value of a communications receiver...not to mention a big freakin' outdoor longwire!

"SONY ICF-S10MK2 Pocket AM/FM Radio"

"The results? On average the Sony/RS combo heard 94% of what the twenty-five times more costly ICOM/Quantum combo did. Impressive! Tuning through the AM band yielded an average catch of about 87 stations for the Sony. Trial eight was done on a particularly "hot" night and resulted in 112 stations heard on the Sony. What the chart does not show is that two distinct stations were resolved on 19 frequencies that night. This means that the Sony heard a total of 131 distinct stations including: news, business, talk, sports, religious, music, nostalgic, and ethnic. Incredible! The $11 Sony, when coupled with a loop antenna, is more than adequate for "casual" AM DX."

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

You were saying ?

 

[700WLW]

Everybody gets tremendous skip at night on the cheapest clock radio at Wal Mart. Try receiving a 500 watt station from 200 miles away IN THE DAYTIME, and you'll see the value of a communications receiver...not to mention a big freakin' outdoor longwire!

"A look at DAB"

"Signal: If you're looking for a hi-fi option - you may want to consider something with an external aerial socket, especially if you're not in a strong signal area . Also note that handheld personal DAB radios are likely to have less effective aerials than tabletop and Hi-fi DAB radios."

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/dab.html

Looks like, portable HD is going to have even more reception problems, than table-top HD with loop and external dipole antennas, just as I suspected.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

That's true Supercaster, which probably rules it out for commercial stations looking to add as many revenue streams as possible. Fine with me, I listen mostly to public radio, where full 96kbps streams aren't rare at all, especially on classical stations. "Mmmmm, purty"...said the man channeling Homer Simpson.

Many public stations are busy adding HD2, and even HD3 streams. As you, yes you, your very self, pointed out, HD multicasting was developed by public radio.

With only HD1 copies of the analog audio at 96kbps, siphoning off listeners from the main analog channel, where is this imaginary "proven revenue stream" you keep talking about?
Advertisers, won't pay more just because HD1 siphoned off (from the analog host) a tiny hand full of HD DXers, and early adopters.
A tiny number of siphoned off Public Radio listeners will probably not multiply their donations by thousands of times just to listen to a digital HD1 copy of what they already get from the station on their analog FM.
HD Radio is going to have to start selling 100 million new radios a year, if they want to replace analog, or get enough listeners to get donors or advertisers to cough up more bucks, and that isn't going to happen, certainly not anytime soon enough to make HD viable.

 

[Mike Walker]

Yes many public stations are adding the HD2 and HD3 streams. I was talking specifically about fine arts stations...primarily classical...like WDAV Davidson NC. Lots of them don't use additional streams, and don't plan to. There ARE HD modes that allow higher bitrates, AND multiple streams. Some stations are experimenting with them already. When HD power is increased before too long, these will become powerful. As it is, stations can go beyond the 96kbps total limit, but they sacrifice robustness of signal in order to do so...the more data you try to send down the pipe, the less rock solid it may be in, say, a moving car, or extreme fringe. HD is brand new, and many modes have yet to undergo practical, widespread testing in the real world. These are all SOLVABLE problems.

Don't make the mistake of believing that HD is only what you hear and observe NOW. This is fluid technology, with many possible modes of operation.

 

[700WLW]

Everybody gets tremendous skip at night on the cheapest clock radio at Wal Mart. Try receiving a 500 watt station from 200 miles away IN THE DAYTIME, and you'll see the value of a communications receiver...not to mention a big freakin' outdoor longwire!

"Handheld DAB receivers"

"The most convenient way to get DAB - a handheld battery-powered receiver. Note that DAB signals aren't as strong as standard FM signals, which is why many have telescopic aerials. Don't expect the signal when on the move to be as good as a decent FM walkman..."

"Signal. Although the DAB signals are less prone to interference, they're currently weaker than FM signals, which can cause problems if you're in a fringe area."

"Signal: If you're looking for a hi-fi option - you may want to consider something with an external aerial socket, especially if you're not in a strong signal area . Also note that handheld personal DAB radios are likely to have less effective aerials than tabletop and Hi-fi DAB radios."

"Note that DAB signals are generally a little weaker than FM signals, so if you're in an area where you can't get FM - you have no chance with DAB."

"Get a good aerial - If you're only a little out of the area, a local aerial contractor may be able to fit a directional FM aerial, pointing directly at the station's transmitter. If you want to Do-It-Yourself, you'll find what you need at Maplin Electronics."

"The UK uses Band III (Band 3), while other parts of the world use the lower-performance L Band (1452-1490MHz)."

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/dab.html

Even with the full-digital mode, DAB does not have the reach of analog - interesting to note, is the new snippet, that states receiving DAB, when on the move, is not as reliable as analog; even if HD/IBOC makes it in-dash/portable, it will never work properly. No doubt, as with table-top HD, many of these receivers will be returned. Battery life, with portable DAB, is substantially less than that of analog radios. LOL ! ;D

"Discuss DAB"

"I live in a weak reception area and have a loft mounted 5-element aerial... Is there an adjustment, perhaps of an aerial trimmer I can make to the RV40 to improve performance or is that handled digitally?"

"My DAB radio reception get worse when I use my laptop a few feet away from it though it appears to be traffic on the wireless connection which is the problem rather than other stray RF generated by the laptop itself. An external aerial feed from outside (via a crack in a window?) would probably help. Alternatively, why not just use an internet radio streaming web site?"

"I have recently purchased the below micro DAB radio / CD player for use in our Caravan. So far we have been unable to use the digital radio. I know it works, just not at the Caravan sites we go to! When it does work I can only get about 6 stations."

"Before you purchase a DAB radio, see if you can borrow one from a friend etc and test the reception where you intend to use it. I have 2 DAB devices. I live in the suburbs of a large city and the reception where I live is very poor. The sellers will not tell you any of the difficulties in reception regards."

"That's good advice for people who don't intend to fit an external aerial. If you do intend to fit an external aerial, though, then as a rough guide, if you get good TV reception from the same transmitter, you'll get good DAB reception too. External DAB aerials can be bought from as little as 12 quid from places like Screwfix Direct."

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?board=DAB

These are just a few snippets of the many hundreds of examples of poor reception, with DAB. The UK is being forced to go digital, otherwise it is pretty clear that with all these frustrated consumers, DAB would never fly. Do I smell HD/IBOC ?

 

[Mike Walker]

DAB is a completely different system. Duh!