POSSIBLE HELP FOR WNYZ-LP/PARTY 87.7?

[MrsN]

On 11/19/09, Island Broadcasting filed a "Displacement Application" with the FCC.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...xt=25&appn=101343670&formid=346&fac_num=56043

In its filing, Island states:

"Description: REASON FOR DISPLACEMENT

THE DISPLACEMENT FROM CH. 6D TO CH. 22D IS JUSTIFIED BY THE POWER INCREASE AUTHORIZED TO WPVI-DT, CH. 6, PHILADELPHIA, PA, TO 30.20 KW ERP, WHICH HAS SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED THE INTERFERENCE FROM WPVI-DT TO WNYZ-LP. "

Can anyone explain how this proposed change may help the listeners?

 

[xmusicmatt]

It wont help listeners... If I read it right they would be moving from Channel 6D to Channel22D which means no more picking it up on your radio..

 

[d21ofnj]

It wont help listeners... If I read it right they would be moving from Channel 6D to Channel22D which means no more picking it up on your radio..

Will this include your Zune players since they have the option to go down to 76.0? If not, what frequency will ch22 broadcast on? I know WNYW broadcasts on 81.5

 

[BiggieFats]

It sounds like they want to move their digital license, which is separate from their analog license.

 

[nyc_eng]

It sounds like they want to move their digital license, which is separate from their analog license.

Island Broadcasting had a construction permit for a digital station on channel 6 since about this time last year. And as per an article in TV Technology by their owner, they were using an exciter that could generate both an analog FM signal oo 87.7 sandwiched between the digital TV signal. There were a few full power stations on TV6 who attempted to try this to keep an analog FM carrier AND a digital TV carrier going after the HDTV cutover this past spring- the FCC unofficially told them all to cut it out, that wasn't permitted, and if they didn't listen would be fined by the commission.

Shortly after that the construction permit for WNYZs digital operation on ch6 was withdrawn. A few days later this new application was filed. After the digital transition, many stations who remained on channel 6 found (as a lot engineers stated all along) that low vhf is undesirable for HDTV transmission, this is presumably the 'hardship' that WNYZ claimed in asking to move to ch22.

They now can drag out the construction of the ch22 plant for 5 years while the CP is still valid, and continue operations on 87.7. Since there is no analog shutdown date for LPTV stations, there is no real good barometer of if, even after ch22 is signed on, what the fate of 87.7 will be. Some believe that they might be able to keep both on the air until some yet-to-be-determined date when analog LPTV stations are ordered to shutdown completely. This move, as of now though, at least guarantees that 87.7 (really WNYZ ch6) will be on the air for 5 years while the ch22 digital plant is "constructed".

 

[avtosalon]

Shortly after that the construction permit for WNYZs digital operation on ch6 was withdrawn.

I heard that the digital signal of WNYZ-LP was actually on the air for a while. Apparently they were transmitting both the analog and digital signals on Channel 6. I think this is possible because the stations, and the audio and video occupy slightly different frequencies even though they're both on the same channel. Digital channel 6 was mapping to Channel 1-1 which is very unusual because analog tuners begin at Channel 2.

There are few examples of low-power TV stations across the country which have continued to keep their analog signals on the air even after converting to digital, and the programming is not required to match. Other low-power TV stations however have shut down their analog when they began broadcasting in digital.

So it's going to take 5 years for Island Broadcasting to 'construct' a digital station on Channel 22 even though they already had equipment to broadcast in digital on Channel 6 (displayed as Channel 1-1)?

 

[pqgeorge]

Shortly after that the construction permit for WNYZs digital operation on ch6 was withdrawn.

I heard that the digital signal of WNYZ-LP was actually on the air for a while. Apparently they were transmitting both the analog and digital signals on Channel 6. I think this is possible because the stations, and the audio and video occupy slightly different frequencies even though they're both on the same channel. Digital channel 6 was mapping to Channel 1-1 which is very unusual because analog tuners begin at Channel 2.

There are few examples of low-power TV stations across the country which have continued to keep their analog signals on the air even after converting to digital, and the programming is not required to match. Other low-power TV stations however have shut down their analog when they began broadcasting in digital.

So it's going to take 5 years for Island Broadcasting to 'construct' a digital station on Channel 22 even though they already had equipment to broadcast in digital on Channel 6 (displayed as Channel 1-1)?

Don't actual Construction Permits have a life-span of only 18 months with the possibility of another 12 to 18 month extension PROVIDED the applicant shows a compelling reason on why the station is not yet on the air? (And it better be a good one, too!) I highly doubt Island Broadcasting will get that long a reprieve (5 years) to keep the 87.7 signal on the air. Who knows?

 

[nd2023]

While the ANALOG 87.7 signal is not getting interfered by WPVI anymore, the DIGITAL signal craps out a long way before WPVI can even be received.
They probably have no intention of going digital on channel 6 or 22. When they were digital on channel 6, the video was color bars and a scrolling message telling viewers to tune to 87.7 FM, the audio was Pulse 87 (not overmodulated). The audio on WNYZ-DT was delayed a few seconds from 87.7 FM.

 

[nyc_eng]

Shortly after that the construction permit for WNYZs digital operation on ch6 was withdrawn.

I heard that the digital signal of WNYZ-LP was actually on the air for a while. Apparently they were transmitting both the analog and digital signals on Channel 6. I think this is possible because the stations, and the audio and video occupy slightly different frequencies even though they're both on the same channel. Digital channel 6 was mapping to Channel 1-1 which is very unusual because analog tuners begin at Channel 2.

There are few examples of low-power TV stations across the country which have continued to keep their analog signals on the air even after converting to digital, and the programming is not required to match. Other low-power TV stations however have shut down their analog when they began broadcasting in digital.

So it's going to take 5 years for Island Broadcasting to 'construct' a digital station on Channel 22 even though they already had equipment to broadcast in digital on Channel 6 (displayed as Channel 1-1)?

Don't actual Construction Permits have a life-span of only 18 months with the possibility of another 12 to 18 month extension PROVIDED the applicant shows a compelling reason on why the station is not yet on the air? (And it better be a good one, too!) I highly doubt Island Broadcasting will get that long a reprieve (5 years) to keep the 87.7 signal on the air. Who knows?

I think LPTV and translator CPs have 36 months and in reality CPs (especially those associated with HDTV) have been routinely extended for years while people sort out details of tower locations, construction difficulties, etc, etc. there are tons of ways you can drag a CP out for years with extensions if you have the right cover stories and FCC atty. in DC. "compelling" is open to interpertation and usually depends on which lawyer files the app and how many friends he has at the FCC. The FCC is very reluctant to issue and drop dead dates for LPTV and translator stations because so many of them are religious in nature all across the country. They are afraid they will cause a firestorm of criticism if they order them off the air. I don't see anything drastic changes coming for LPTV stations at least until the 3-5yr time frame.

 

[nyc_eng]

While the ANALOG 87.7 signal is not getting interfered by WPVI anymore, the DIGITAL signal craps out a long way before WPVI can even be received.
They probably have no intention of going digital on channel 6 or 22. When they were digital on channel 6, the video was color bars and a scrolling message telling viewers to tune to 87.7 FM, the audio was Pulse 87 (not overmodulated). The audio on WNYZ-DT was delayed a few seconds from 87.7 FM.

where a stations usable coverage area ends, and where their interference extends to are two, very different things. And just because WPVI is now digital, they still have an RF carrier on the same frequency- which causes interference. The coverage of 87.7 in south/central jersey was SUPERB in the days immediately following the HD cutover because WPVI was running so little power. They quickly got permission to increase their digital power when it became clear that their coverage wasn't close to what it was in analog in their local area.

 

[w9wi]

I heard that the digital signal of WNYZ-LP was actually on the air for a while. Apparently they were transmitting both the analog and digital signals on Channel 6. I think this is possible because the stations, and the audio and video occupy slightly different frequencies even though they're both on the same channel. Digital channel 6 was mapping to Channel 1-1 which is very unusual because analog tuners begin at Channel 2.

Digital signals occupy the entire channel. Reportedly neither WNYZ nor the Albany station were transmitting an analog video signal -- both stations' analog signals were audio only. The audio signal is pretty narrow, and apparently the Albany station felt it could slice a bit off the top of their digital signal to make room for the analog audio.

Apparently it worked fairly well for the analog. I have my doubts about the digital side.

There are few examples of low-power TV stations across the country which have continued to keep their analog signals on the air even after converting to digital, and the programming is not required to match. Other low-power TV stations however have shut down their analog when they began broadcasting in digital.

There are two ways a LPTV station can convert to digital:

• It can seek a "Digital Companion Channel"
• It can "Flash Cut"

The first case is similar to what happened with full power stations. A second channel is assigned for digital operation, and the digital and analog stations can operate simultaneously. Eventually the analog license will be canceled. There are two different Facility IDs in the FCC Database, one for digital, one for analog.

In the second case, the existing analog license is issued a digital permit. Analog operation must cease when digital operation begins. (in many cases this is technically forced when the digital operation is on the same channel as the analog) There is only one Facility ID.

WNYZ's situation is the latter case -- there is only one Facility ID. At least in theory analog channel 6 must cease operation once the license-to-cover is issued for digital channel 22. (assuming the digital 22 application is eventually approved)

 

[stationless listener]

Whatever the case may be, I think that anyone who wants to continue to listen to any station on 87.7 must hope that the government, eventually, makes it legal for radio to broadcast left of 88.1 in the States (not this TV audio peculiarity that is particular to certain cities that have traditionally had Channel 6 stations). If not, they should make special rules that allow stations which have broadcasted for years on the 87.7 dial (or TV audio 87.75) to legally broadcast on the actual 87.7 (87.70) dial position. I think that is the hope for stations like Party FM to continue broadcasting in NYC for the medium and long-term future.

 

[MoldaMania182]

Whatever the case may be, I think that anyone who wants to continue to listen to any station on 87.7 must hope that the government, eventually, makes it legal for radio to broadcast left of 88.1 in the States (not this TV audio peculiarity that is particular to certain cities that have traditionally had Channel 6 stations). If not, they should make special rules that allow stations which have broadcasted for years on the 87.7 dial (or TV audio 87.75) to legally broadcast on the actual 87.7 (87.70) dial position. I think that is the hope for stations like Party FM to continue broadcasting in NYC for the medium and long-term future.

This made my morning. That is precisely how the FCC does not work. WNYZ is a TV station regardless of whatever is being done with it right now. At some point when the rules change to define what will happen with that space and the class of service to be provided, they will have to reapply along with everyone else that has an interest in whatever happens to it. A regular FM station is not necessarily high on that list of options either. There's talk of AM's on FMs too in that space or the recent baby of LPFM. Don't forget it also falls under the non com part of the dial at the moment.

 

[MickeyD]

It wont help listeners... If I read it right they would be moving from Channel 6D to Channel22D which means no more picking it up on your radio..

Will this include your Zune players since they have the option to go down to 76.0? If not, what frequency will ch22 broadcast on? I know WNYW broadcasts on 81.5

The frequency is going up not down. Channel 22 operates from 518-524 Mhz. There would be nothing to hear but hash becuase the gignal would be digital. The reason Zune players go down to 76Mhz is because Japan's FM band is down in this region.
76 Mhz through 87.5 are TV channels 5 and 6. This way you can sell them here and in Japan.

 

[MickeyD]

Shortly after that the construction permit for WNYZs digital operation on ch6 was withdrawn.

I heard that the digital signal of WNYZ-LP was actually on the air for a while. Apparently they were transmitting both the analog and digital signals on Channel 6. I think this is possible because the stations, and the audio and video occupy slightly different frequencies even though they're both on the same channel. Digital channel 6 was mapping to Channel 1-1 which is very unusual because analog tuners begin at Channel 2.

There are few examples of low-power TV stations across the country which have continued to keep their analog signals on the air even after converting to digital, and the programming is not required to match. Other low-power TV stations however have shut down their analog when they began broadcasting in digital.

So it's going to take 5 years for Island Broadcasting to 'construct' a digital station on Channel 22 even though they already had equipment to broadcast in digital on Channel 6 (displayed as Channel 1-1)?

You cannot occupy the same bandwidth with an analog and digital signal. If that were possible, the FCC would not have had to issue separate and Analog and Digital TV licenses. If I were Mr. Bogner I would hold out on building a digital TV channel becuase he is making infinitely more money running channel 6 analog as a radio station than he ever will as a digital TV station.

Viewers are having a difficult time receiving full powered digital TV stations. I wouldn't be investing in Low Power digital TV stations right now. Since the FCC is looking to buy up TV station bandwidth for other purposes, owning a license for a small slice of BW might be a good investment to sell to the government but that would be the extent of it.

 

[MickeyD]

Whatever the case may be, I think that anyone who wants to continue to listen to any station on 87.7 must hope that the government, eventually, makes it legal for radio to broadcast left of 88.1 in the States (not this TV audio peculiarity that is particular to certain cities that have traditionally had Channel 6 stations). If not, they should make special rules that allow stations which have broadcasted for years on the 87.7 dial (or TV audio 87.75) to legally broadcast on the actual 87.7 (87.70) dial position. I think that is the hope for stations like Party FM to continue broadcasting in NYC for the medium and long-term future.

There are plans, more like proposals, to extend the FM band down to 76 Mhz (where Channel 5 and 6 used to live). This would be used to relocate AM stations and possibly LPFM stations. The problem would be how long would it take to get people to replace their FM receivers with new ones that tune down here.

Now that most TV stations have vacated TV channel 6, it would be nice for the FCC to open 87.9 after all IT IS A REAL FM CHANNEL (CHannel 200). There are only 5 stations throughout the country on it. It is a waste of bandwidth.

 

[nd2023]

While the ANALOG 87.7 signal is not getting interfered by WPVI anymore, the DIGITAL signal craps out a long way before WPVI can even be received.
They probably have no intention of going digital on channel 6 or 22. When they were digital on channel 6, the video was color bars and a scrolling message telling viewers to tune to 87.7 FM, the audio was Pulse 87 (not overmodulated). The audio on WNYZ-DT was delayed a few seconds from 87.7 FM.

where a stations usable coverage area ends, and where their interference extends to are two, very different things. And just because WPVI is now digital, they still have an RF carrier on the same frequency- which causes interference. The coverage of 87.7 in south/central jersey was SUPERB in the days immediately following the HD cutover because WPVI was running so little power. They quickly got permission to increase their digital power when it became clear that their coverage wasn't close to what it was in analog in their local area.

There actually was a tropo opening the weekend of June 12th that enhanced WNYZ's signal in south NJ where it isn't supposed to reach at all. A few days this summer, I could hear Pulse 87 clearly in Atlantic City.
Oh well, it's not worth fighting static to pick up HIP HOP on 87.7 :-(

 

[w9wi]

Now that most TV stations have vacated TV channel 6, it would be nice for the FCC to open 87.9 after all IT IS A REAL FM CHANNEL (CHannel 200). There are only 5 stations throughout the country on it. It is a waste of bandwidth.

There are also seven low-power DTV stations on the air on channel 6, permits for several dozen more, and applications for -- some -- don't really have a handle on how many. There's to be a filing window for new LP-DTV stations in urban markets early in 2010 which will likely bring more applications for channel 6.

 

[MickeyD]

Now that most TV stations have vacated TV channel 6, it would be nice for the FCC to open 87.9 after all IT IS A REAL FM CHANNEL (CHannel 200). There are only 5 stations throughout the country on it. It is a waste of bandwidth.

There are also seven low-power DTV stations on the air on channel 6, permits for several dozen more, and applications for -- some -- don't really have a handle on how many. There's to be a filing window for new LP-DTV stations in urban markets early in 2010 which will likely bring more applications for channel 6.

Now this I just don't understand at all. Low power stations are restricted to "low power"-Really low power and full power DTV TV stations have trouble getting their signal to the their audience. Just look at WPVI and others that made the mistake of remaining on Channel 6 so they could save power and ultimately had to sharply increase it. No savings here.

Unless the FCC allows digital LPTV stations to increase power beyond what they are allowed now; all they will be doing is heating the air. Has this even appeared on the FCC or LPTV organizations radar yet? Don't think so!

 

[stationi]

Unless the FCC allows digital LPTV stations to increase power beyond what they are allowed now; all they will be doing is heating the air. Has this even appeared on the FCC or LPTV organizations radar yet? Don't think so!

Actually the FCC has approved a power increase for a digital LPTV station on channel 3 in San Francisco, from 300 watts to 1200 watts.

See: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=k14mw