Possible Use Of 890 Frequency

[Laurence Glavin]

If Waller Sutton were to take WAMG-AM 890 silent and turn in the license, would it be possible for WJIB-AM to switch from 740 to 890 and operate with 250 watts or slightly more day and night? Being a thousand miles distant from WLS, the Fresh Pond WJIB tower might be able to operate with that much power NDA after sundown. Two-hundred-fifty watts isn't so much daytime power to have any more of an impact on the 900 in Nashua, NH than WAGM did; after all, for decades, stations on 740 coexisted with WHEB-AM 750 in Portsmouth, NH which had coastal propagation towards Massachusetts.

 

[DanStrassberg]

If Waller Sutton were to take WAMG-AM 890 silent and turn in the license, would it be possible for WJIB-AM to switch from 740 to 890 and operate with 250 watts or slightly more day and night? Being a thousand miles distant from WLS, the Fresh Pond WJIB tower might be able to operate with that much power NDA after sundown.

You might be surprised about overlap with Nashua. WAMG's day pattern was (is?) very deeply nulled to the north. The signal in that direction is way less than the equivalent of 250W ND. Depending on how you calculate it, the equivalent power is as little as 49W or as great as ~120W. So I believe there would be a big problem with WJIB moving to 890. As for night power, you'd be surprised again. Although I think that WLS, almost 1000 miles away, puts a good deal less signal into Boston than does CFZM, which is less than 400 miles away, the night power that WJIB would be allowed is only slightly greater than the current 5W. The reason is that WLS is a US station and its 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave contour must be protected. CFZM is a Canadian station and so its signal must be protected only on land within Canadian borders. The critical point, I'm guessing is somewhere along the ME/QC border about as far from Boston as is WLS's protected contour, the closest point of which is southeast of Buffalo NY. So WJIB on 890 might be able to run 6W at night vs 5. If Bob were interested in such a move, he could have applied for 720, which I believe he could once again do if he were interested, which, AFAIK, he is not. I believe that Bob Vinikoor's CP for WQTH 720 has lapsed, which would probably allow WJIB to move to 720.

 

[JIBGUY]

I looked into moving to 720 at least 12 years ago. Engineering study said 6 watts at nighttime, and barely above 250 watts daytime... reason for daytime sameness was that WJTO-Bath and WACE-Chicopee (both 730) are still the exact same concern. Another daytime concern being on 720 is overlapping WOR-710 on Cape Cod. ...not that WJIB has a decent signal there, but WOR-710 is there and the was no 750 there. The only way for WJIB to get more power is multi-tower directional at a new site... and we've all seen how that move often croaks AM radio stations that try it. (WJTO tried it... 10kw with 5 towers.. FCC approved.... then fighting locals... then bankruptcy 1991).

 

[aaronread]

Wouldn't it just make more sense for WJIB to buy WAMG as-is? I mean, assuming that it would just be "turned in" for zero profit, wouldn't it make at least slightly more sense to sell it to Bob, even at a huge discount?

Actually, wouldn't it make even more sense to donate the license to a non-profit and take the tax write-off? Heh, donate it to WBUR and they could put up all the NPR programming that's out there but won't fit on their schedule. Trust me, there's enough to fill another station.

BTW, not that I endorse expanding WBUR's empire at the expense of many other worthy non-comms out there. It's more that I don't really think too many other non-profit entities would really know what to do with an expensive-to-operate directional AM station like WAMG. (shrugs)

 

[DanStrassberg]

Wouldn't it just make more sense for WJIB to buy WAMG as-is? I mean, assuming that it would just be "turned in" for zero profit, wouldn't it make at least slightly more sense to sell it to Bob, even at a huge discount?

I'd be surprised if Waller Sutton would sell the WAMG license for $2 million--even in today's depressed market for AMs. I think 890 would make a dandy addition for WBUR, however. Somehow, I don't think Bob would find much appeal in taking on a debt of $2 million, which, presumably he would owe directly to the current owners because third-party financing for AMs (especially AMs with proven track records of failure) is essentially unavailable. Besides the $2 million nut, there would be the monthly lease payments on the Tx site (which is shared at night with WBIX). Maybe those payments are a good deal lower than what WWZN is rumored to be paying but they can't be negligible. The site covers something like 40 acres of commercially zoned land in Ashland. The site is just east of Route 126. It does not front on 126, however and there is an easement for a natural-gas pipeline, which crosses the middle of the property from west to east. Access is from the end of a residential street. I wonder what the Town's valuation of the parcel is.

 

[LA_Guy]

I looked into moving to 720 at least 12 years ago. Engineering study said 6 watts at nighttime, and barely above 250 watts daytime... reason for daytime sameness was that WJTO-Bath and WACE-Chicopee (both 730) are still the exact same concern. Another daytime concern being on 720 is overlapping WOR-710 on Cape Cod. ...not that WJIB has a decent signal there, but WOR-710 is there and the was no 750 there. The only way for WJIB to get more power is multi-tower directional at a new site... and we've all seen how that move often croaks AM radio stations that try it. (WJTO tried it... 10kw with 5 towers.. FCC approved.... then fighting locals... then bankruptcy 1991).

Of course, one BIG advantage of 720 is that WBBM hardly comes into Boston at all, while 740 in Toronto is in every night like a ton of bricks! Your 6 watts at night would go out a lot further on 720 then 740 because of the lack of interference.

The 710 is really a non problem, as the FCC doesn't consider overlap on the cape and islands from the NYC and Maine stations. Of course, WJIB would get creamed by WOR's IBOC there.

If 760 didn't exist, 750 would be the place to go, as you could have an extra 45 minutes of 250 watts (full power until sunset at Atlanta).-and likely over 10 watts at night.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Of course, one BIG advantage of 720 is that WBBM hardly comes into Boston at all, while 740 in Toronto is in every night like a ton of bricks! Your 6 watts at night would go out a lot further on 720 then 740 because of the lack of interference.

The 710 is really a non problem, as the FCC doesn't consider overlap on the cape and islands from the NYC and Maine stations. Of course, WJIB would get creamed by WOR's IBOC there.

If 760 didn't exist, 750 would be the place to go, as you could have an extra 45 minutes of 250 watts (full power until sunset at Atlanta).-and likely over 10 watts at night.

You mean WGN, not WBBM. WBBM is on 780. But if that Hecht & Alonso 750 CP right near Bangor (50 kW-D/10 kW-N DA-N four towers) were to go away (it may already be tolled), a lot of possibilities would open up. With WQTH gone (actually it was never there), why couldn't WVNE move from 760 to 720? WVNE is within WJR's 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave so it can't operate after Detroit sunset. It would be outside WGN's 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave, so night operation--albeit with very little power--would be possible. And if Blount and Carberry could get together, WVNE might diplex with WCRN and get some significant night power from the three-tower array.

Then WJIB could move to 750 with the advantages you cited.

 

[JIBGUY]

With WQTH gone (actually it was never there), why couldn't WVNE move from 760 to 720?

Because of 730 in Chicopee? -with a booming 5kw signal just about 45 miles away? And then there's 730 in Bath Maine which might pose a problem. Haven't looked at contours, but it seems that WVNE (at 720)'s 0.25 would touch WJTO-730's 0.5.

WJIB on 750?.... then what about I-Block splash on 750 from WJR-760 Detroit? At least now, WJIB-740 is I-Block-free, being surrounded by weak Atlanta signal (WSB-750) and a non-I-Block Canadian (CKAC) on 730.

 

[DanStrassberg]

With WQTH gone (actually it was never there), why couldn't WVNE move from 760 to 720?

Because of 730 in Chicopee? -with a booming 5kw signal just about 45 miles away? And then there's 730 in Bath Maine which might pose a problem. Haven't looked at contours, but it seems that WVNE (at 720)'s 0.25 would touch WJTO-730's 0.5.

Yup. If WVNE were to move to 720, it would pretty much HAVE to diplex with WCRN and run directional day and night from WCRN's three-tower array. (Actually, WCRN has four towers, of which it uses no more than three at any one time. But the fourth tower might provide additional options for the design of a day pattern for WVNE.) Would that adequately protect Chicopee--even even if WVNE were to run less than its current 25 kW (non-CH day)? I don't know. Quite possibly no amount of power reduction would be sufficient to achieve an acceptable amount of contour overlap.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Yup. If WVNE were to move to 720, it would pretty much HAVE to diplex with WCRN and run directional day and night from WCRN's three-tower array. (Actually, WCRN has four towers, of which it uses no more than three at any one time. But the fourth tower might provide additional options for the design of a day pattern for WVNE.) Would that adequately protect Chicopee--even even if WVNE were to run less than its current 25 kW (non-CH day)? I don't know. Quite possibly no amount of power reduction would be sufficient to achieve an acceptable amount of contour overlap.

A little more checking reveals that the distance from WCRN to WACE is a mere 36 miles. WVNE on 720 from the WCRN site just wouldn't work. Period. The distance is WAY too short!

 

[MarcB]

Wouldn't it just make more sense for WJIB to buy WAMG as-is? I mean, assuming that it would just be "turned in" for zero profit, wouldn't it make at least slightly more sense to sell it to Bob, even at a huge discount?

That would pretty much kill WJIB. WJIB is already showing up at the bottom of the ratings which increased the fees that WJIB has to pay, which is what requires them to do the fundraisers. If WJIB moved to the much more powerful 890 signal I'm sure their ratings would go up even more resulting in even higher fees for them to pay.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

Wouldn't it just make more sense for WJIB to buy WAMG as-is? I mean, assuming that it would just be "turned in" for zero profit, wouldn't it make at least slightly more sense to sell it to Bob, even at a huge discount?

That would pretty much kill WJIB. WJIB is already showing up at the bottom of the ratings which increased the fees that WJIB has to pay, which is what requires them to do the fundraisers. If WJIB moved to the much more powerful 890 signal I'm sure their ratings would go up even more resulting in even higher fees for them to pay.

WJIB is no longer showing a number in the ratings because Bob has chosen not to subscribe and get the equipment for PPM. I don't know if they would just estimate his ratings to bill him for the music licensing fees anyway.

 

[aaronread]

WJIB on 750?.... then what about I-Block splash on 750 from WJR-760 Detroit? At least now, WJIB-740 is I-Block-free, being surrounded by weak Atlanta signal (WSB-750) and a non-I-Block Canadian (CKAC) on 730.

Wellll...you're assuming IBOC on AM is going to be around forever. I'm an HD Radio user (both as an FM station and a listener) and even I am less and less confident about IBOC for AM every month.

Also, the interference from IBOC is often viewed as "more objectionable" because it is NEW interference. But the nature of digital white noise means it's perceived as much LESS objectionable interference by the listener. At least when compared to normal first-adjacent or co-channel "many voices at once"-style or "beating"-style interference.

If WJIB would gain a noticeable advantage in nighttime coverage by moving to 750AM, I wouldn't dismiss the idea solely because of WJR's IBOC hash. I might dismiss it for other reasons, which might INCLUDE the IBOC hash, but not for the hash alone.

WJIB is no longer showing a number in the ratings because Bob has chosen not to subscribe and get the equipment for PPM. I don't know if they would just estimate his ratings to bill him for the music licensing fees anyway.

Well, I'll defer to Bob on these, but IIRC just because you don't subscribe doesn't automatically mean you don't get PPM. Regardless, this is the music industry we're talking about here...a minor thing like not having ratings to calculate royalty payments?!?! Please, that won't stop them from trying to get their pound of flesh.

BTW, if Bob wants to blow a million bucks, I'd offer to buy WBRS from Brandeis (the way things are, they'd probably sell), convert it into a commercial-band FM translator license, move the stick to the WJIB tower, and use it to relay WJIB on the FM band. It totally could be done...I looked into doing this prior to the Oct.2007 NCE filing window; told the kids they should try to apply for the tiny 89.3FM hole up in Leominster and use that as a primary station. Sure it'd be a tough (questionably legal) grab to relay any 89.3 signal in Leominster allllll the way down in Waltham, but when's that ever stopped a translator owner before?!?! And while WBRS 100.1FM the Class D FM is limited to 25w ERP...WBRS 100.1FM the FM Translator can go as high as 120 watts (roughly, the rules in 74.1235(b)(1) make this harder to calculate than for non-translator FM's). Possibly more if you made it directional.

Of course, Scott Fybush will now drive over to my house and dopeslap me for suggesting this.

 

[JIBGUY]

WJIB on 750?.... then what about I-Block splash on 750 from WJR-760 Detroit? At least now, WJIB-740 is I-Block-free, being surrounded by weak Atlanta signal (WSB-750) and a non-I-Block Canadian (CKAC) on 730.

Wellll...you're assuming IBOC on AM is going to be around forever. I'm an HD Radio user (both as an FM station and a listener) and even I am less and less confident about IBOC for AM every month.

Good point Aaron... I was thinking in the present. I-Block is doomed on AM (and likely FM too) But one thing we both forgot is if WJIB were to want to go to 750, that would be impossible since WVNE (25,000 watts) is on adjacent 760, and only 45 miles away..... impossible.

On the PPM thing..... it's not a matter of subscribing to PPM.... well in a way it is... WJIB does not "Encode"... it doesn't sent out the special coded silent (to us) signal for people meters to pick up. Therefore, according to the ratings, WJIB has no listeners. Some of WJIB listeners may be holding their PPM right up to the radio, but the PPM will not hear it. PPM: don't care about it, don't need it. 740 does not sell spots.

I'm in the "making people feel good business" (with the music they love); I'm not in "the radio business" since the radio business took a turn long ago, away from the public, and more towards Wall Street.

Another station that does not show up in ratings is 1510. They must not be encoding either.

 

[JIBGUY]

BTW, if Bob wants to blow a million bucks, I'd offer to buy WBRS from Brandeis (the way things are, they'd probably sell), convert it into a commercial-band FM translator license, move the stick to the WJIB tower, and use it to relay WJIB on the FM band.

Bob doesn't have a million bucks.... nowhere near it.

 

[JIBGUY]

Good point Aaron... I was thinking in the present. I-Block is doomed on AM (and likely FM too) But one thing we both forgot is if WJIB were to want to go to 750, that would be impossible since WVNE (25,000 watts) is on adjacent 760, and only 45 miles away..... impossible.
On the PPM thing..... it's not a matter of subscribing to PPM.... well in a way it is... WJIB does not "Encode"... it doesn't sent out the special coded silent (to us) signal for people meters to pick up. Therefore, according to the ratings, WJIB has no listeners. Some of WJIB listeners may be holding their PPM right up to the radio, but the PPM will not hear it. PPM: don't care about it, don't need it. 740 does not sell spots.

I'm in the "making people feel good business" (with the music they love); I'm not in "the radio business" since the radio business took a turn long ago, away from the public, and more towards Wall Street.

Another station that does not show up in ratings is 1510. They must not be encoding either.

 

[aaronread]

Oh yeah, I forgot about WVNE. Oh well, nevermind.

I thought Arbitron was giving out PPM encoders to ALL qualified stations in PPM markets. You didn't have to be a subscriber, but the system is based as much on knowing what your competitors are getting in ratings as it is for your own stations' ratings. Now granted, because of that maybe you don't WANT to have that encoder in there, but I'm surprised you didn't get one.

If nothing else, the encoder/monitor combo make a handy silence sensor.

 

[JIBGUY]

I thought Arbitron was giving out PPM encoders to ALL qualified stations in PPM markets. You didn't have to be a subscriber, but the system is based as much on knowing what your competitors are getting in ratings as it is for your own stations' ratings. Now granted, because of that maybe you don't WANT to have that encoder in there, but I'm surprised you didn't get one.

They do send.... to ALL stations.... but before you get one you sign an offered contract with them. A valuable life lesson: the fewer contracts you sign, the better off you are. Audience measurement and competitors? I know the audience is there ("more listeners per watt than any other station in America"), and 740 has no competitors.