PPM has destroyed WVON's ratings

[dustintv]

After reading all these muddled responses is there a single reason as to why WVON did decline in ratings? Perhaps this was the most logical one:

How about WVON just being horribly programmed? 5 minutes of news at the TOH, then 5 minutes of spots, then 90 second of a bumper until you get into content.

 

[Moonshine]

This entire thread is very upsetting to me. I remember the hey day of WVON when Lucky Cordell, Purvis Spann, "The Blues Man", Bill "Doc" Lee, along with Ed Cook, Butterball, E Rodney Jones, Herb Kent and the whole gang were kicking butts at 1450. I actually heard an old air check the other day with Jay Johnson that was recorded in 1972 that was outstanding. Tony Guzman (sp) was master in Production, he was fantatic with a grease pencil and a razor blade, does anybody remember those old days in Production. A flood gate of names just popped into my head: Roy Wood, Jim Maloney, Joe Cobb, Bernadine C. Washington, Cecil Hale, Richard Pigue, Bob Bell, Lilian Jones, wow so many people and so many years ago. Am sure all of you read that Wesley South passed away recently. WVON was on one end of the building and WSDM FM was on the other end.

 

[drded]

Clear Channel owns a big chunk of Ibiquity, so they are not going to shut off their own revenue stream.

Clear Channel owns a tiny piece of iBiquity, which is mostly owned by venture capital and investment bank interests. Early on, most of the major broadcast groups made small investments (to put it in perspective, around the cost a good station would incur building one good studio in LA or New York) in iBiquity as seed capital. The idea was never to make money, but, rather, to encourage digital terrestrial.

Several rating services have come and gone.

Hooper, Trendex, Pulse, Nielsen Radio (in the 50's), Mediastat, Mediatrend, Accuratings, Mobiltrak, Burke, Birch, Audits & Surveys, Arbitron, Eastlan, etc.

Veterans may remember some that could easily be bought, i.e. if you bought the service your station got higher ratings, if you didn't...

I remember bad broadcasters saying that... as an excuse for bad ratings. There was never any evidence of purposeful distortion.

The diaries have been tainted for many years by age, ethnicity, ownership, and who knows what else.

Not really. Age projections are proportional to each age group's percentage in the market, in any survey. Ownership has nothing to do with it, and ethnicity is similarly proportional to the market percentages.

The PPM uses a panel and passive measurement, but other than that all surveys simply measure a proportional sample and project the results into the universe.

May I respectfully disagree with all your comebacks. Clear Channel doesn't do anything without profit being part of the equation, and they have held a seat on Ibiquity's board of directors since the beginning. If you want to believe that is no influence, nothing I can say will change your mind.

I was in a 1960s market where Hooper was very well known for rating those stations higher that bought Hooper. I think any jock that has worked in a Hooper-surveyed market could verify that.

And if you really believe diaries are not tainted by a number of factors, nothing any of us has to say is going to influence your mind. Having been in the business over 20 years in various markets I tend to believe that diaries are easily manipulated and tainted. If they weren't do you think money and effort would have been spent on PPM? The industry wants to know who is or isn't listening. Diaries did not tell them accurately!

As a side note, for a brief time I actually worked for the Chess Brothers when they expanded into Milwaukee by buying the former WFOX and changing it to WNOV (The Negro's Other Voice). I say briefly because when the Chess Brothers took over they fired the majority of the white staff before introducing the new staff. The engineers and the bookkeeper were the only ones not fired.

Dave

 

[davideduardo]

May I respectfully disagree with all your comebacks. Clear Channel doesn't do anything without profit being part of the equation, and they have held a seat on Ibiquity's board of directors since the beginning. If you want to believe that is no influence, nothing I can say will change your mind.

The reason all the major broadcasters save for a couple (SBS is one) invested small amounts early on was to insure that the Lucent (ATT Laboratories) development continued and that there would be broadcaster involvement. At that time, and view of profit potential was a decade or more away, and not the main reason for giving seed capital to iBiquity. The original US Radio Partners formed for the development of digital was made up of Westinghouse, Gannet and CBS. It grew into a venture capital affair with 15 broadcasters investing. Not just Clear but also CBS and Radio One are on the current board; other companies have been represented on it too.

I was in a 1960s market where Hooper was very well known for rating those stations higher that bought Hooper. I think any jock that has worked in a Hooper-surveyed market could verify that.

In a word, Methodology. Each survey had a different system, ranging from the diary to 24 hour aided recall to coincidental. And each format and station fared differently in each methodology. So stations bought the survey they looked best in, until agencies standardized on Arbitron.

And if you really believe diaries are not tainted by a number of factors, nothing any of us has to say is going to influence your mind. Having been in the business over 20 years in various markets I tend to believe that diaries are easily manipulated and tainted.

"Tainted" implies either malfeasance or ineptitude or corruption. None of these exist.

The diary, like all survey and sampling techniques, has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage of the diary is principally that it involves recall, and generates ronding, greater listening for top of mind stations, etc.

When there are other issues like media controlled diaries, we see that Arbitron has algorithms to spot them, and also makes use of market feedback. I've gotten several books reissued, and am maybe the only person who has gotten a trend reissued, so I know the stystem works pretty well almost all the time.

If they weren't do you think money and effort would have been spent on PPM? The industry wants to know who is or isn't listening. Diaries did not tell them accurately!

Accuracy is not the issue. Agencies demanded immediacy like they have with TV and other electronic media, and radio had to provide it.

All US markets but one were MRC accredited for the diary method. Only 3 are accredited for the PPM so far. Which is at this moment more reliable?

 

[wtrw]

Hey folks, let's remember something, that's going unnoticed by these posts.

WVON is at the very top of the dial, right where you totally fall off. So, to
compare this to WVON1450 or WVON1390 isn't right.

You blame PPM, and I blame the season. Right now, 1690 is running 10kw
from something like 730am to 430pm or something like that....the rest of
the time, they are at 1,000 watts. Summertime, you'll get 10kw until
830pm and full power as early as 5am...but you can't just blame PPM.

 

[wtrw]

and, I'd easily say that 5kw on 1390, with a directional antenna looking N or NE
is far superior to a top of the dial position, non-directional, except it would
super serve the southside.

and, don't pray for Clear Channel to return to 1690 in our lifetimes. they tried,
with million dollar talent, never made a dime, and are done with losing money there.

 

[radiotower40]

This entire thread is very upsetting to me. I remember the hey day of WVON when Lucky Cordell, Purvis Spann, "The Blues Man", Bill "Doc" Lee, along with Ed Cook, Butterball, E Rodney Jones, Herb Kent and the whole gang were kicking butts at 1450. I actually heard an old air check the other day with Jay Johnson that was recorded in 1972 that was outstanding. Tony Guzman (sp) was master in Production, he was fantatic with a grease pencil and a razor blade, does anybody remember those old days in Production. A flood gate of names just popped into my head: Roy Wood, Jim Maloney, Joe Cobb, Bernadine C. Washington, Cecil Hale, Richard Pigue, Bob Bell, Lilian Jones, wow so many people and so many years ago. Am sure all of you read that Wesley South passed away recently. WVON was on one end of the building and WSDM FM was on the other end.

Moonshine, If you are interested in hearing "The Blues Man" Pervis Span, he is still doing his music show
on Saturday night from 11PM-2AM on WVON AM 1690.

I met him about 10 years ago, at an event on the south side, he took the time to talk to me for over 1/2 hour, I think
he was surprised that a twenty something white kid was so interested in him and his history. Not only that, but, the fact
that I listened almost every night. He invited me to come to the studio on Kedzie and sit in and watch him do his show.
I took him up on that offer, it was great! He was so impressed by my imitation of his Good mornin' Good mornin'
Good mornin'(if you were a listener of his, you know what I'm talking about), that he let me say it a few times on
the air. I was at that time, just getting used to radio sales, this was like a dream come true to me. He convinced me
to keep at it, and not give up, I'm still in radio sales today. If not for him I might not be. He's a great guy, give him
a listen!

I also met Richard Pegue a few years before he passed on, another great guy, we'll never see guy's like this in radio
again, they loved radio, and more importantly their listeners.

Here is a link to a the page that mentions Pervis's airtime,

www.wvon.com/wvon-personalities2.html

 

[nuffsaid]

TR you are so right. The WVON "Good Guys" were just that, GOOD GUYS. I spent countless hours in the production room (more like a small auditorium) working with the staff on promos and jingle. That was a great staff in a time that will never be known again. The jocks sitting in the booth talking through an intercom to the engineer on the other side of the glass. The two put together some really great radio. There were times when out of a stop set or from record to record there could be 5 to 6 elements overlaid into the next element and all of this took place in less than 10-15 seconds. Computers can do this but will never have the "feel" the Good Guys and Engineers had for the music and the format! If you ever hear an old air check you'll know what I mean. The news guys were actually down the hall and had no line of sight to the jock nor the engineer but put together a fast paced newscast and timed to the second for the jingles and sounders.

 

[Greg Strickland]

btw- local channels like 1450 are going to be good for about three miles at night because of the large amount of interference on the channel.
There is generally at least 1 mv of interference on local channels at night and stations must get over this interference.

As mentioned, the top end of the band is a challenge since ground conductivity is poor, compared to the low end. This difference is huge and should not be ignored. I believe the expanded AM band (which WVON 1690 is part of) has less interference, so that helps. Also they can more easily put up a more efficient antenna (higher frequency means a shorter antenna), but the ground conductivity fall off is brutal.

 

[DanStrassberg]

As mentioned, the top end of the band is a challenge since ground conductivity is poor, compared to the low end. This difference is huge and should not be ignored. I believe the expanded AM band (which WVON 1690 is part of) has less interference, so that helps.

Well. the EFFECT of ground conductivity is greater at the high end of the AM dial than it is at the low end, and, yes, the difference is significant. BUT the conductivity itself is independent of frequency. The difference between groundwave propagation at the high and low ends of the AM dial is greater in areas of low conductivity than it is in areas of high conductivity. Fortunately for you folks in the midwest, the conductivity there is generally quite high--on average, approximately an order of magnitude better around Chicago than it is here in southern New England. A few hundred miles west of Chicago, it is higher still--as much as four times as high as it is around Chicago. Better not to make misleading statements that are sure to confuse people who don't understand the theory!

 

[Greg Strickland]

Yes, Dan I could have put it more clearly in my post. Thanks

 

[dave73]

btw- local channels like 1450 are going to be good for about three miles at night because of the large amount of interference on the channel.
There is generally at least 1 mv of interference on local channels at night and stations must get over this interference.

As mentioned, the top end of the band is a challenge since ground conductivity is poor, compared to the low end. This difference is huge and should not be ignored. I believe the expanded AM band (which WVON 1690 is part of) has less interference, so that helps. Also they can more easily put up a more efficient antenna (higher frequency means a shorter antenna), but the ground conductivity fall off is brutal.

If WVON buys the station from Clear Channel, then they can move their antenna somewhere else (if they choose to do so), and have a shorter antenna. CC diplexed then WRLL on one of the WGRB towers just to get Real Oldies 1690 on the air in 2002 or 2003. I do agree that the station isn't heard in many parts of the market at night. I can get WVON during the daytime, but it's a faint signal at night in Gary Indiana. I remember the south side, some nearby south suburbs, and far western Hammond Indiana getting then WRLL, and now WVON.

 

[davideduardo]

]If WVON buys the station from Clear Channel, then they can move their antenna somewhere else (if they choose to do so), and have a shorter antenna.

A shorter tower is less efficient, so there is no gain in doing that. And the 1 kw night operation simply will not go far, no matter where they place the tower.

 

[DanStrassberg]

A shorter tower is less efficient, so there is no gain in doing that. And the 1 kw night operation simply will not go far, no matter where they place the tower.

You might think that a half-wave tower would be quite helpful at 1690. It would take only a 300 footer to make almost 190 degrees at that high AM frequency. 190 degrees is the electrical height that is most popular with the ex IA "clear-channel" stations. Well, in the ex-band, the 190-degree tower could be quite useful during daylight hours but not at night. Unless the FCC has changed its rules, an ex-band station that uses a tower taller than 1/4 wavelength at night must derate its power so that it produces an inverse-distance field of no more than 307 mV/m @ 1 km. That's the I-D field from a 1/4-wave antenna with a standard ground system (120 1/4 wavelength radials). Because of the tall tower's high efficiency, an ex-bander that used a 190-degree antenna at night would be limited to about 580W at night instead of the usual ex-band night power of 1 kW. I think that's known as "you can't win for losing."