PPM's ( had it been around years ago )

[alok]

To all that commented on ratings ,PPM's ,etc. Thank You ,I learned much.

I was wondering if PPM's were around in the early days of Top 40 radio , 1950's / 60's / 70's ,if we would have be able to experience what many of us feel was "unique radio".
With plenty of jingles ,great DJ's and a plain "never ending fun sound" radio gave us.

Or would have the PPM's ,if around in the 50's - 70's, made radio then just a "jukebox" with no real DJ's,few jingles ,kind of blah.
Just a place to hear the sponser message?


Al

 

[michael hagerty]

To all that commented on ratings ,PPM's ,etc. Thank You ,I learned much.

I was wondering if PPM's were around in the early days of Top 40 radio , 1950's / 60's / 70's ,if we would have be able to experience what many of us feel was "unique radio".
With plenty of jingles ,great DJ's and a plain "never ending fun sound" radio gave us.

Or would have the PPM's ,if around in the 50's - 70's, made radio then just a "jukebox" with no real DJ's,few jingles ,kind of blah.
Just a place to hear the sponser message?


Al

Al: A bit of both, I think. While there have always been listeners (perhaps a majority) telling us jocks and former jocks, PDs and former PDs to "shut up and play the music", the 50s and 60s were an era where a significant portion of the audience considered the personality and promotions an important part of the package.

Case in point: My dad. In his 40s, he listened to KMPC in Los Angeles driving to and from work each day in the mid '50s to mid '60s. In an hour, he'd hear 8 minutes of news (5 minutes at the top of the hour, 3 at the bottom), 18 minutes of commercials, mostly played one or two in a break, traffic reports, sports scores, some humor from the DJ before and after every song and in between commercials...and maybe six records. That's a TSL and PPM n

 

[michael hagerty]

nightmare. But to guys like my dad (born 1917), one station that would give him all that was worth sticking with. Except for the Dodgers on KFI, he never listened to anything else.

 

[DavidKaye]

I was wondering if PPM's were around in the early days of Top 40 radio , 1950's / 60's / 70's ,if we would have be able to experience what many of us feel was "unique radio".
With plenty of jingles ,great DJ's and a plain "never ending fun sound" radio gave us.

I think we have to take radio broadcasting in context. By the early 1940s there were a lot of established stations, about half of which had network affiliations. The rest were barely scraping by with farm reports, live music shows to promote dances at local nightclubs, and "ethnic" broadcasters.

Between 1946 (the end of World War II, remember) and about 1950 there was a huge burst of new stations licensed. This just about killed radio because existing stations saw nearly double the competition, and TV had come on the horizon and the audiences for traditional network radio was fleeing the scene.

Stations, even network stations, were losing money left and right. The DJ concept, though it existed before, was now a must-have format because it became literally the cheapest way to keep radio stations afloat.

So, where we had KSFO, KFRC, KPO 680, KGO, KLX 910, KROW 960, KJBS 1100, KYA 1260, KWBR 1310, KRE 1400, and KSAN 1450 prior to World War II, most except for KRE and KSAN had very good signals (prior to solid steel office buildings and computer hash). So, all those stations could afford good programming and the other ones did ethnic or specialty programming.

Then the postwar period added KKIS 990, KSAY 1010, KOFY 1050, KNBA 1190, KIBE 1220, KEEN 1370, K-something 1430, KWUN 1480, KXRX 1500, KEAR/KOBY 1550, and KSJO/KLIV 1590, along with nearby stations such as KSRO 1350, KTIM 1510, KPLS 1150. KVRE 1460, KTOB 1490, and probably some more I can't remember.

Suddenly, a boatload of stations were struggling to get audience. So, the big stations got rid of their orchestras, their in-house soap operas, etc., and replaced them with announcers (DJs) and board ops. The small stations made do with DJs both announcing and board-opping.

But that wasn't enough, so the big stations hired comics and game show hosts and anybody else they could find who had had any kind of radio success in the past. And the smaller stations hired 22 year old kids who worked cheap and acted manic.

But that still wasn't enough, so the stations ran contests, and call-in song dedications, and jingles. Some stations went full force into news, which usually meant an important-sounding news sounder along with either a very serious-sounding news announcer or a cut-up news announcer, and teletype noises and basically AP wire copy. A few stations had someone who was friends with the local cops get tips from the cops about crime scenes (the days before police scanners, or for that matter before VHF and UHF two-way radio), who phoned them to let them know where to show up with their station "news car".

Slogans were big, and stations fought back and forth about that. KYA's "More music" competed with KFRC's "MUCH more music", and so it went. DJs were king for that brief period in time (well, the late 40s through the mid-70s) only because they worked cheaper than unionized network talent. By the mid-70s when the rest of the kinks were worked out of radio automation, it became even cheaper than the DJs.

Had the audience actually MINDED, the DJs wouldn't have gone away, but by the late 70s, people preferred the jukeboxes to the manic DJs and stations that boasted "30 minute music sweeps" got audience. So, automation was a no-brainer.

The best station to watch the evolution of commercial radio broadcasting is KLIV 1590. They went from a MOR full-service station to rock, to music sweeps, to all-news. They've managed to remain profitable because they caught all the major programming trends over the years.

 

[LKellerIII]

Interesting historical info, David. Thanks. I would think Top 40 radio with all the "bells and whistles" was a natural progression from the prior decades of network radio dramas, comedies, house bands, etc. I've always figured that the more minimalist radio that followed was a result of the influence of "free form" album rock radio, that started the trend to longer sets without DJ interruption, no jingles, sweepers, etc. If anything, FM radio was MORE minimalist after the death of free form radio than it is now...aside from having live jocks then, that is.

I recall that 107.7 KSOL was the top rated music station for awhile in the 80s, and they had absolutely no jingles, bumpers, sweepers, or anything of that sort. My brother in law liked Oldies on KARA (Santa Clara) in the 80s, which was as minimalist as you can get - no jocks, either live or voice-tracked, no song IDs of any kind, and one bumper - a woman's voice that said; "Hi. This is KARA in Santa Clara."

I was driving my old non-MP3 equipped Subaru the other day, so I actually listened to music radio for awhile. I tuned in "99.7 Now" - which I would think is the closest thing to Top 40 that exists anymore (along with Wild 94.9). There actually WERE a lot of "bells and whistles" - sweepers done by St. John, who talks fast, with a lot of excitement - not unlike the old AM Top 40 jocks. I don't know who the DJ was, but he seemed to be live, and also spoke in an affected way that would appeal (I guess) to younger listeners. So I'm not sure Hit Music radio has actually changed all that much from the "old days." No jingles, for sure, but those cost lots of money.

 

[michael hagerty]

Interesting historical info, David. Thanks. I would think Top 40 radio with all the "bells and whistles" was a natural progression from the prior decades of network radio dramas, comedies, house bands, etc. I've always figured that the more minimalist radio that followed was a result of the influence of "free form" album rock radio, that started the trend to longer sets without DJ interruption, no jingles, sweepers, etc.

If you go back further, though, Llew, you'll find a lot of commonalities between the earliest beautiful music stations like KABL and free-form in terms of long sets with no interruption and no jingles. McLendon spiced up KABL with production pieces coming out of stop sets but a lot of other "good music" stations of the times didn't do that. Apart from jargon and music, you could have dropped Tom Donahue into KABL or one of the KABL guys into KMPX or KSAN and it wouldn't have sounded that far removed from their usual sound.

And...that sound really has its roots in the earliest classical and jazz stations...so the "less talk/more music" thing really dates back to the very early 50s or before. Bells and whistles Top 40 and mega-personality MOR were really the aberrations.

 

[LKellerIII]

Interesting historical info, David. Thanks. I would think Top 40 radio with all the "bells and whistles" was a natural progression from the prior decades of network radio dramas, comedies, house bands, etc. I've always figured that the more minimalist radio that followed was a result of the influence of "free form" album rock radio, that started the trend to longer sets without DJ interruption, no jingles, sweepers, etc.

If you go back further, though, Llew, you'll find a lot of commonalities between the earliest beautiful music stations like KABL and free-form in terms of long sets with no interruption and no jingles. McLendon spiced up KABL with production pieces coming out of stop sets but a lot of other "good music" stations of the times didn't do that. Apart from jargon and music, you could have dropped Tom Donahue into KABL or one of the KABL guys into KMPX or KSAN and it wouldn't have sounded that far removed from their usual sound.

And...that sound really has its roots in the earliest classical and jazz stations...so the "less talk/more music" thing really dates back to the very early 50s or before. Bells and whistles Top 40 and mega-personality MOR were really the aberrations.

Good point. The Bay Area Radio Museum has a 1967 air check of KGO-FM - automated light rock, and about as minimalist as you can get.

Moving over to AM, there's a 64 aircheck of KFRC (pre-Drake) - MOR format with just a few sleep inducing soft jingles, and the rather dull hosting of Van Amburg - not saying much of anything in particular...about a decade before he was sensationalizing the news on KGO-TV. It's no wonder RKO hired Drake - KSFO and KCBS must have been crushing KFRC in the ratings.

http://www.bayarearadio.org/audio/kfrc/1964/kfrc_van-amburg_oct-1964.shtml

 

[DavidKaye]

Good point. The Bay Area Radio Museum has a 1967 air check of KGO-FM - automated light rock, and about as minimalist as you can get.

I didn't mention FM in my original post because, except for KPEN (KIOI) and KSAN 94.9, nobody was making money with FM until the 70s, maybe even as late as 1980. KGO-FM's automated music formats (the rock format and the ABC Love format) were run basically to keep KGO-FM on the air until the audience caught up with FM. Stations had to stay on the air at least 6 hours a day in order to keep their licenses. KCBS-FM 98.9 ran "The Young Sound", which had quarter hour music blocks. KABL-FM had the identical format as the AM but it was run from a separate system. KFRC-FM had Drake's "Hit Parade" and "Solid Gold" automated formats.

The FCC had decreed that by 1967 FMs could not simulcast their AMs more than 50% of the time. Given the lack of budgets, stations went automated, usually with IGM or Schafer automation and suddenly automated music services were all the rage. But still the FMs didn't make any money. Well, maybe by then KFOG did with its beautiful music format.

IGM: http://digitalcollections.library.gsu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/oneal/id/982/rec/1
Schafer 903: http://www.easylisteninghq.com/html/schafer903sys.htm

Moving over to AM, there's a 64 aircheck of KFRC (pre-Drake) - MOR format with just a few sleep inducing soft jingles, and the rather dull hosting of Van Amburg - not saying much of anything in particular...about a decade before he was sensationalizing the news on KGO-TV. It's no wonder RKO hired Drake - KSFO and KCBS must have been crushing KFRC in the ratings.

KFRC and KHJ were a lot like WOR, and all were trying to be like KSFO, known nationally as the king of full-service MOR radio. While KHJ had people like game show hosts Robert Q. Lewis and Wink Martindale and comic Steve Allen, and other Hollywood personalities they could draw upon, KFRC didn't have much in its stables.

By then the gas had run out of RKO General, and the chain (the successor to the successful Don Lee/Mutual network) had basically become a vehicle for selling General Tires. This had continued into the Drake era when the owner continued to run General Tire ads at least once, sometimes twice an hour. In fact, General Tire later lost its station licenses due to coercing their vendors to buy ads on the RKO radio and TV stations.

From the research I've done I think that RKO General had no idea that the Drake format would make them so much money. Had Drake not come along they probably would have just hung onto their stations and been content to use them to sell tires. Of course, after the success of Drake, they took another look at the situation and decided to bring program management in-house, thus ending the Drake era.

 

[michael hagerty]

Good point. The Bay Area Radio Museum has a 1967 air check of KGO-FM - automated light rock, and about as minimalist as you can get.

I didn't mention FM in my original post because, except for KPEN (KIOI) and KSAN 94.9, nobody was making money with FM until the 70s, maybe even as late as 1980. KGO-FM's automated music formats (the rock format and the ABC Love format) were run basically to keep KGO-FM on the air until the audience caught up with FM. Stations had to stay on the air at least 6 hours a day in order to keep their licenses. KCBS-FM 98.9 ran "The Young Sound", which had quarter hour music blocks. KABL-FM had the identical format as the AM but it was run from a separate system. KFRC-FM had Drake's "Hit Parade" and "Solid Gold" automated formats.

The FCC had decreed that by 1967 FMs could not simulcast their AMs more than 50% of the time. Given the lack of budgets, stations went automated, usually with IGM or Schafer automation and suddenly automated music services were all the rage. But still the FMs didn't make any money. Well, maybe by then KFOG did with its beautiful music format.

IGM: http://digitalcollections.library.gsu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/oneal/id/982/rec/1
Schafer 903: http://www.easylisteninghq.com/html/schafer903sys.htm

Moving over to AM, there's a 64 aircheck of KFRC (pre-Drake) - MOR format with just a few sleep inducing soft jingles, and the rather dull hosting of Van Amburg - not saying much of anything in particular...about a decade before he was sensationalizing the news on KGO-TV. It's no wonder RKO hired Drake - KSFO and KCBS must have been crushing KFRC in the ratings.

KFRC and KHJ were a lot like WOR, and all were trying to be like KSFO, known nationally as the king of full-service MOR radio. While KHJ had people like game show hosts Robert Q. Lewis and Wink Martindale and comic Steve Allen, and other Hollywood personalities they could draw upon, KFRC didn't have much in its stables.

By then the gas had run out of RKO General, and the chain (the successor to the successful Don Lee/Mutual network) had basically become a vehicle for selling General Tires. This had continued into the Drake era when the owner continued to run General Tire ads at least once, sometimes twice an hour. In fact, General Tire later lost its station licenses due to coercing their vendors to buy ads on the RKO radio and TV stations.

From the research I've done I think that RKO General had no idea that the Drake format would make them so much money. Had Drake not come along they probably would have just hung onto their stations and been content to use them to sell tires. Of course, after the success of Drake, they took another look at the situation and decided to bring program management in-house, thus ending the Drake era.

Apart from the true legends of the format (KSFO, KMPC, WNEW), most MOR stations were actually pretty dull. Of course, it was cheaper to hire "announcers" than it was to hire "personalities" or even "stars", so that's what most did.

KHJ actually did horribly with their attempt. Wink was only there for a year before jumping ship to KRLA, and he was a kid...23 or 24 years old...up against established stars like Dick Whittinghill at KMPC and Bob Crane at KNX. Steve Allen's show was an hour from 9-10 AM and lasted something like six weeks before Drake was brought in. And Lewis' TV fame never really helped him. He didn't move the needle at KHJ nor did he at KFI during a brief stint in 1972.

Finally, something I wasn't aware of until a couple of weeks ago while browsing the Billboard archives on Google Books. RKO had so totally given up on KHJ that it had a deal with Willett Brown, a member of the RKO board of directors, who also was sole owner of KGB, San Diego that, if Bill Drake (who Brown recommended to RKO) couldn't pull KHJ out of the ditch within 3 years, RKO would sell KHJ to Brown for a pre-arranged price. Given Drake's success for Brown at KGB, I'm betting he never expected to end up owning KHJ, but RKO clearly had lost its patience and wanted out if Boss Radio didn't fly.

 

[LKellerIII]

Good point. The Bay Area Radio Museum has a 1967 air check of KGO-FM - automated light rock, and about as minimalist as you can get.

KFRC and KHJ were a lot like WOR, and all were trying to be like KSFO, known nationally as the king of full-service MOR radio. While KHJ had people like game show hosts Robert Q. Lewis and Wink Martindale and comic Steve Allen, and other Hollywood personalities they could draw upon, KFRC didn't have much in its stables.

By then the gas had run out of RKO General, and the chain (the successor to the successful Don Lee/Mutual network) had basically become a vehicle for selling General Tires. This had continued into the Drake era when the owner continued to run General Tire ads at least once, sometimes twice an hour. In fact, General Tire later lost its station licenses due to coercing their vendors to buy ads on the RKO radio and TV stations.

From the research I've done I think that RKO General had no idea that the Drake format would make them so much money. Had Drake not come along they probably would have just hung onto their stations and been content to use them to sell tires. Of course, after the success of Drake, they took another look at the situation and decided to bring program management in-house, thus ending the Drake era.

I remember the General Tire commercials running constantly on KHJ. They had a catchy jingle, but the lyrics were peculiar:

"Some day you'll own...
Someday you'll own...
Sooner or later you'll own Generals"


I also recall that my mother loved Robert Q. Lewis, and the Steve Allen/Jane Meadows morning show on KHJ. She had switched over to Steve and Jane after Bob Crane quit KNX to do
Hogan's Heroes. She was horrified when KHJ changed format to Boss Radio in 1965...though I wasn't complaining. Much like KFRC, I think the great KMPC and KNX were crushing KHJ in the ratings.

 

[DavidKaye]

"Some day you'll own...
Someday you'll own...
Sooner or later you'll own Generals"

I loved the General Tire commercials because the jingle was catchy and it was the first time I'd ever heard a drum (a tympani) act as a bass, and change keys! I thought that was awesome -- still do. Wish I could find a copy of that jingle.

 

[RadioStarOne]

Jingle: You Tube...

 

[davideduardo]

I didn't mention FM in my original post because, except for KPEN (KIOI) and KSAN 94.9, nobody was making money with FM until the 70s, maybe even as late as 1980.

There is an interesting article about the state of FM in mid-1967 here:

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC/BC-1967/1967-07-31-FM-BC.pdf

Quite a few FMs were making good money by then, with KFOG and WJIB doing very well under Peter Taylor.

Another example would be Jerry Lee's very profitable station in Philadelphia as well as a large group of classical FMs such as WGMS in DC and WCLV in Cleveland.

 

[michael hagerty]

Much like KFRC, I think the great KMPC and KNX were crushing KHJ in the ratings.

Probably true, Llew. I can't find hard numbers to back it up (Billboard didn't start publishing full ratings data until the 70s...and Claude Hall didn't start excerpting them in comments in Vox Jox until the late 60s), but the Fall, 1966 Pulse ratings (the earliest I can find) give a clue:

1. KHJ (top 40) 9.0
1. KMPC (mor) 9.0
1. KLAC (talk) 9.0
4. KFI (mor) 7.0
4. KPOL (beautiful) 7.0
4. KRLA (top 40) 7.0
7. KABC (talk) 4.0
7. KFAC (classical) 4.0
7. KFWB (top 40) 4.0
7. KNX (mor) 4.0
7. XETRA (news) 4.0
12. KGFJ (r&b) 3.0
12. KWIZ (all request) 3.0
12. KWKW (Spanish) 3.0
15. KFOX (country) 2.0
15. KGBS (country) 2.0
15. KGIL (mor) 2.0
18. KALI (Spanish) 1.0
18. KBBI-FM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KBIG-AM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KBLA (top 40) 1.0
18. KBMS (beautiful) 1.0
18. KGER (religious) 1.0
18. KHJ-FM (top 40-simulcast) 1.0
18. KUTE-FM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KWIZ-FM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KWOW (country) 1.0

There are two things we know that happened here between early 1965 and this survey: The launch of Boss Radio and Bob Crane's departure from KNX. It's reasonable to assume that KMPC, KRLA and KNX were close to each other or tied at the top, with KFWB maybe a point or two back. Disaster in those days would be placing 10th or worse, since after that, it was pretty much lower-powered stations. That could mean as much as a five point difference in the ratings between KMPC and KHJ or KNX and KHJ. KLAC and KABC probably picked up some numbers from the old KHJ, which was heavy on talk and information. Ballpark guess for fall '64:

1. KRLA
2. KMPC
3. KNX
4. KFI
5. KFWB
6. KPOL
7. KLAC
8. KFAC
9. KABC
10.KHJ
11.XETRA

And some of those might be tied with others. Back then, the numbers were whole numbers, no decimal points, so ties were common.

 

[DavidKaye]

Quite a few FMs were making good money by then, with KFOG and WJIB doing very well under Peter Taylor.

Yeah, I misspoke. KJAZ, of course had to have been making money given that Pat Henry had built the place in the 1950s and wasn't loaded with money. And there were indeed some FM stations shining.

The report does say that over half the FMs in 1967 were losing money. In those days some stations were selling single-channel FM radios and FM antennas in order to get people to listen to FM.

The article is amazing in (1) its sexism, (2) its treatment of FM stations as also-rans while trying to tell people that FMs were not also-rans. In 1967, Metromedia had just bought KSFR 94.9, prior to the callsign change to KSAN, and was promoting its classical format. This, of course, is prior to Tom Donahue taking over. And sister KMET was being promoted for its all-women DJs. Even the stations that had established separate formats from the AMs were still carrying some of the AM's programming, usually daytime or morning drive, not confident enough to break away entirely.

 

[davideduardo]

The report does say that over half the FMs in 1967 were losing money.

But, if you look at the annual FCC financial reports for that same year, you find that half of all stations, AM or FM, were losing money... of course, that was the same in 1967 or 1977 or 1987 for that matter.

In those days some stations were selling single-channel FM radios and FM antennas in order to get people to listen to FM.

And quite a few stations made money only due to SCA background music services.

The article is amazing in (1) its sexism,

If you look at the classifieds in the 50's and 60's, you saw lots of ads with "wanted: stable family man" and similar. Some even said "married preferred." Even worse, what were called "r&b stations" in the 70's was referred to as "race stations" in the 50's and "negro stations" in the 60's... even in their own advertising.

 

[DavidKaye]

And quite a few stations made money only due to SCA background music services.

When I worked at KSOL (now KSAN) 107.7, the station made more money on the background music service than on the main channel, which was remarkably devoid of advertisers. In those days the station signed off at 2:00am, simply because bar closing time was at 2 and thus the background music had to run until 2.

 

[JEREMIAH]

Lots of interesting stuff so far.

I've done just about every format there is bit the weirdest one was my years at KSFO...1978-84 until Gene Autry sold to King Broadcasting.

7pm my AC music-personality hour
8 pm Old time radio(Lone Ranger and tons of others)
9 pm CBS mystery theatre.
10 pm The Comedy hour Live with me and local comics and recorded comedy.
11 pm Gordon's Graffiti (50's and 60's music and comment with era sound bites.

I don't know of any other station in the country with that kind of format. It just evolved over the years.
We always were a strong third in the market with better numbers than the rest of KSFO. Wide demos for the format.
I even did dedications on friday night.

When station folded we had live TV coverage on channel 2
and channel 7 my last night.

Lots of great memories.

Jerry Gordon Jack B. Show Salem Radio Network

 

[michael hagerty]

Lots of interesting stuff so far.

I've done just about every format there is bit the weirdest one was my years at KSFO...1978-84 until Gene Autry sold to King Broadcasting.

7pm my AC music-personality hour
8 pm Old time radio(Lone Ranger and tons of others)
9 pm CBS mystery theatre.
10 pm The Comedy hour Live with me and local comics and recorded comedy.
11 pm Gordon's Graffiti (50's and 60's music and comment with era sound bites.

I don't know of any other station in the country with that kind of format. It just evolved over the years.
We always were a strong third in the market with better numbers than the rest of KSFO. Wide demos for the format.
I even did dedications on friday night.

When station folded we had live TV coverage on channel 2
and channel 7 my last night.

Lots of great memories.

Jerry Gordon Jack B. Show Salem Radio Network

KSFO was the true innovator in the GWB stable. KMPC got too wrapped up in trying to become a fully contemporary AC while still hanging on to the heavy personalities and spot load. In retrospect, they would have been better served heading in a nostalgia direction in the mid-late 70s...which is where they ended up in '82 (after a failed attempt at talk). Instead, they went chasing an audience that was never going to be theirs. I made the same mistake in Reno from '77 to '81.

 

[LKellerIII]

Lots of interesting stuff so far.

I've done just about every format there is bit the weirdest one was my years at KSFO...1978-84 until Gene Autry sold to King Broadcasting.

7pm my AC music-personality hour
8 pm Old time radio(Lone Ranger and tons of others)
9 pm CBS mystery theatre.
10 pm The Comedy hour Live with me and local comics and recorded comedy.
11 pm Gordon's Graffiti (50's and 60's music and comment with era sound bites.

I don't know of any other station in the country with that kind of format. It just evolved over the years.
We always were a strong third in the market with better numbers than the rest of KSFO. Wide demos for the format.
I even did dedications on friday night.

When station folded we had live TV coverage on channel 2
and channel 7 my last night.

Lots of great memories.

Jerry Gordon Jack B. Show Salem Radio Network

Loved KSFO at nights during this period, Jerry! I listened from the time John Gilliland hosted. Being in my 20s at the time, I imagine I was out of the KSFO demographic.