Pre Digital NTSC 7 VHF Channels

[hintomedia]

Tokyo has 7 VHF stations:

1: NHK General (JOAK-TV)
3: NHK Educational (JOAB-TV)
4: Nippon TV (JOAX-TV)
6: Tokyo Broadcasting System (JORX-TV)
8: Fuji TV (JOCX-TV)
10: TV Asahi (JOEX-TV)
12: TV Tokyo (JOTX-TV)

As for VHF 6/7 in the same market... Winnipeg has CBWT/6 and CKY/7.

 

[bpatrick]

I notice that some of you are starting Texas call letters
with "W"; Texas is west of the Mississippi, and with two
exceptions (WFAA in Dallas, WOAI in San Antonio--itself
once KMOL before its original owners bought it back and
restored the original call letters) on television and one or
two on radio, call letters start with "K"; it's KXAS and
KAUZ.

Back on-topic: I miss having Ch. 6 on 87.7 FM. Coming
back from Myrtle Beach one Sunday a few years ago, I
got to listen to NBC's coverage of the Ryder Cup on WECT,
so I didn't miss anything. I also once had the--for me--
weird experience of listening to "The Bugs Bunny And
Tweety Show" on WJBF Augusta, GA, one Saturday morning,
and it only proved what Chuck Jones always said: those Warner
Brothers cartoons were not "illustrated radio".

 

[dave73]

I notice that some of you are starting Texas call letters
with "W"; Texas is west of the Mississippi, and with two
exceptions (WFAA in Dallas, WOAI in San Antonio--itself
once KMOL before its original owners bought it back and
restored the original call letters) on television and one or
two on radio, call letters start with "K"; it's KXAS and
KAUZ.

The original boundary for K call letters were those west of North & South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, & Texas. In 1923, the K call letter boundary was extended to the Mississippi River. So most W call letters in North & South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, & Minnesota are grandfathered in. Now Because Minnesota & Louisiana are 2 states that have the Mississippi River running thru the state, rather than as a boundary, those 2 states aren't clearly defined. There have been exceptions to stations east of the Mississippi River with call letters starting with K, and those too, are grandfathered. The biggest one being KYW Philadelphia. This is the only website that goes a bit into detail on the history of the K/W call letters. http://earlyradiohistory.us/kwtrivia.htm#boundary

 

[ShawnHill1]

While on the pre-digital 6/7 kick, I put together a list of all the 4/5 markets I could think of...

Albuquerque (KOB and KNME)
Anchorage (KTBY and KYES)
Boston (WBZ and WCVB)
Brownsville/McAllen (KGBT and KRGV)
Charleston, SC (WCIV and WCSC)
Dallas/Fort Worth (KDFW and WXAS)
El Paso (KDBC and XEJ)
Grand Junction (KFQX and KREG)
Honolulu (KITV and KGMB)
Juneau (KUBD and KATH)*
Kansas City (WDAF and KCTV)
Los Angeles (KNBC and KTLA)
Mayaguez, PR (WNJX and WORA)
Minneapolis/St. Paul (WCCO and KSTP)
Nashville (WSMV and WTVF)
New York City (WNBC and WNYW)
Oklahoma City (KFOR and KOCO)
Raleigh-Durham (WUNC and WRAL)
Reno (KRNV and KNPB)
Riverton, WY (KCWC and WGWL)
St. Louis (KMOV and KSDK)
Salt Lake City (KTVX and KSL)
San Antonio (WOAI and KENS)
San Francisco (KRON and KPIX)
Seattle (KOMO and KING)
Washington (WRC and WTTG)

*-KATH is LPTV

Add Portland, Oregon to the list...KRCW-LP Channel 5 (the low-power repeater of KRCW-TV 32) and KOIN Channel 6.

 

[RadioDaze]

I notice that some of you are starting Texas call letters
with "W"; Texas is west of the Mississippi, and with two
exceptions (WFAA in Dallas, WOAI in San Antonio--itself
once KMOL before its original owners bought it back and
restored the original call letters) on television and one or
two on radio, call letters start with "K"; it's KXAS and
KAUZ.

That was a typo on my part (can't believe I did that, as I usually don't get K and W calls mixed up like that).

Found another 6/7, in Puerto Rico...

Boise (KIVI and KTVB)
Denver (KRMA and KMGH)
Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (WTVJ and WSVN)
Omaha (WOWT and KETV)
San Juan, PR (WIPR and WSTE)
Spokane (KHQ and KSPS)
Wichita Falls/Lawton (KAUZ and KSWO)


While on the pre-digital 6/7 kick, I put together a list of all the 4/5 markets I could think of...

Albuquerque (KOB and KNME)
Anchorage (KTBY and KYES)
Boston (WBZ and WCVB)
Brownsville/McAllen (KGBT and KRGV)
Charleston, SC (WCIV and WCSC)
Dallas/Fort Worth (KDFW and KXAS)
El Paso (KDBC and XEJ)
Grand Junction (KFQX and KREG)
Honolulu (KITV and KGMB)
Juneau (KUBD and KATH)*
Kansas City (WDAF and KCTV)
Los Angeles (KNBC and KTLA)
Mayaguez, PR (WNJX and WORA)
Minneapolis/St. Paul (WCCO and KSTP)
Nashville (WSMV and WTVF)
New York City (WNBC and WNYW)
Oklahoma City (KFOR and KOCO)
Portland, OR (KRCW and KOIN)*
Raleigh-Durham (WUNC and WRAL)
Reno (KRNV and KNPB)
Riverton, WY (KCWC and WGWL)
St. Louis (KMOV and KSDK)
Salt Lake City (KTVX and KSL)
San Antonio (WOAI and KENS)
San Francisco (KRON and KPIX)
Seattle (KOMO and KING)
Washington (WRC and WTTG)

*-KRCW and KATH are LPTV

 

[vchimpanzee]

Tokyo has 7 VHF stations:

1: NHK General (JOAK-TV)
3: NHK Educational (JOAB-TV)
4: Nippon TV (JOAX-TV)
6: Tokyo Broadcasting System (JORX-TV)
8: Fuji TV (JOCX-TV)
10: TV Asahi (JOEX-TV)
12: TV Tokyo (JOTX-TV)

As for VHF 6/7 in the same market... Winnipeg has CBWT/6 and CKY/7.

Channels 6 and 7 aren't adjacent. FM radio occupies the next slot above 6.

 

[RadioDaze]

That's correct, the broadcast FM band and, above that, commercial airline traffic.
So channels 6 and 7, though numerically next-door to each other, aren't side-by-side in the electromagnetic spectrum. VHF channels 4 and 5 are also not adjacent on the electromagnetic spectrum. This is why, in the NTSC era, the FCC could usually allocate channels 4 and 5 or channels 6 and 7 to operate in a common market without worrying about interference the way, say, allocating channels 11 and 12 to a market would have rendered both unviewable (unless some special conditions were in place like distance restrictions, a geographically-spread out market, or both, for example, the Greenville-Washington-New Bern, NC and Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News, VA-NC markets) With ATSC, I think things are a little different, as long as the stations in question operate from a common location. For example, in the Raleigh-Durham market, we have RF channels 27 (WLFL) and 28 (WRDC), as well as RF channels 48 (WRAL) and 49 (WRAZ) operating side-by-side, actually all four on the same tower. Pre-6/12, WRAL operated its DTV on RF channel 53, while WTVD was on RF channel 52, from separate towers less than a quarter mile apart.

 

[cd637299]

Another interesting note on VHF is that channels 4 and 5, as well as channels 6 and 7 can operate in the same market beside each other since there's sufficient space between the frequencies at which they operate.

Interesting side note: in some Latin American countries, there are Muzak-type transmitters in the 72-76 MHz band, between Channels 4 and 5 (Latin America uses the U.S. frequency plan for TV.) Some VHF DX'ers have heard these stations here in the U.S. when skip conditions are good.

Among those is Radio Selectos in El Salvador on 72.9 MHz, which I have picked up here in south Florida with their 1.5 kW signal. It's a great "beacon" for more potential Central American DX in sporadic-E season. It is a station of the Super Selectos supermarket chain. They stream as well: www.radioselectos.com

cd

 

[hintomedia]

As for VHF 6/7 in the same market... Winnipeg has CBWT/6 and CKY/7.

Channels 6 and 7 aren't adjacent. FM radio occupies the next slot above 6.

I know that, I was just responding to the people listing 6/7 pairs.

 

[RadioDaze]

I discovered yet another 6/7 market paring to add to this old discussion, in Knoxville, TN, where ABC affiliate WATE operated on channel 6 alongside digital-only independent WMAK, channel 7, for five years.

Boise (KIVI and KTVB)
Denver (KRMA and KMGH)
Knoxville (WATE and WMAK)
Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (WTVJ and WSVN)
Omaha (WOWT and KETV)
San Juan, PR (WIPR and WSTE)
Spokane (KHQ and KSPS)
Wichita Falls/Lawton (KAUZ and KSWO)

 

[Darth_vader]

Portland had 7 stations, 2-4-5-6-8-10-12.

KPXG operated in ATSC for about a year on 4; they then cut over to 22 and became the first to transmit in ATSC exclusively in mid-2008, if I remember correctly. Before that it was a low-power KWBP/KRCW repeater which was moved to 5, where it still is to this day.

Although not technically a Portland station, the OPB transmitter KOAC (channel 7) in Corvallis could be clearly seen in the southern parts of Portland, next to KGW. I used to hear KOAC's audio signal on my multiband quite often in Vancouver, but when observed on my TV sets, the picture was almost always trashed by the time it got up here.

 

[trapper12]

WATE channel 6 in Knoxville was another station on the radio. May be a bit off subject but there were three channel 8's within close proximity to at least one other channel 8. Charleston WV, Knoxville Tn, Nashville Tn. I was always interested in whether there was any interference between any of those stations. Also channel 11 in Huntington WV and channel 11 in Johnson City Tn.

 

[w9wi]

WATE channel 6 in Knoxville was another station on the radio. May be a bit off subject but there were three channel 8's within close proximity to at least one other channel 8. Charleston WV, Knoxville Tn, Nashville Tn. I was always interested in whether there was any interference between any of those stations. Also channel 11 in Huntington WV and channel 11 in Johnson City Tn.

The channel 8 assignment at Knoxville and channel 11 at Charleston were both "drop-in" assignments. Neither one met normal FCC distance separation standards. They were added well after the original table -- channel 8 in Knoxville didn't sign on until 1988 and channel 11 not until 1982. (FWIW channel 11 is assigned to Charleston, not Huntington) (some argue channel 8 is the continuation of Knoxville's channel 26, which signed on in the 1950s. However, they are two separate licenses.)

The drop-in VHF assignments were made (presumably under political pressure) in the 1970s. Other examples include channel 8 in Altoona, Pennsylvania and ... well, I'm spacing on the rest... There were far more drop-ins proposed than ever actually happened. I remember reading an article that proposed assignment of channels 10 and 12 to Clarksville, Tennessee. (they would have been Nashville-market stations)

Under the normal standards, channel 8 could not be assigned to any city within 169.5 miles of the WCHS (Charleston) or WNPT (Nashville, and then known as WDCN) transmitters. Channel 11 could not be assigned to any city within 169.5 miles of the WJHL (Johnson City) transmitter.

Knoxville is 161.5 miles from the WNPT transmitter. (and the WVLT channel 8 transmitter is 162.3 miles from WNPT) That's a pretty minor short-spacing, though it still precluded assignment of channel 8 there. (I haven't done the math but wonder if WGTV Athens, Georgia (transmitter in Atlanta) would have been a more important factor in limiting assignment of channel 8 to Knoxville?) Charleston is not a problem here, as Knoxville is 202.2 miles from the WCHS-TV transmitter.

The situation in Charleston is a lot tighter. Charleston is only 135.3 miles from the WJHL transmitter. (and the WVAH transmitter is 138 miles from WJHL) Again I haven't done the additional math but suspect there's also a significant short-spacing to Pittsburgh.

Both drop-in stations use directional antennas.

In the Charleston case I suppose an argument could be made that mountainous terrain meant there would be less interference than predicted. You might say that for Knoxville (vs. Nashville) as well, although there are some pretty large towns (Cookeville etc.) in the interference area.

Someday I'll get far enough through the Broadcasting Magazines on David Eduardo's site to find the drop-in proceedings. There was a lot of politicking going on there...

 

[Charles1]

Another 6/7 situation (albeit a bit of a stretch):

WBRC-6, Birmingham, and WCIQ-7 Mount Cheaha State Park. Though Channel 7's antenna is about 60 miles E of Birmingham, it could be picked up very well with rabbit ears all over the Birmingham area, although Birmingham receives PBS via WBIQ-10.

 

[tripinva]

Other examples include channel 8 in Altoona, Pennsylvania and ... well, I'm spacing on the rest... There were far more drop-ins proposed than ever actually happened.

The other one was KSTU in Salt Lake City.

Ironically, three of the four are now on UHF in digital. Only WWCP-8 found its way back to VHF after the transition. (KSTU-28, WVLT-30, WVAH-19)

- Trip

 

[w9wi]

Under the normal standards, channel 8 could not be assigned to any city within 169.5 miles of the WCHS (Charleston) or WNPT (Nashville, and then known as WDCN) transmitters. Channel 11 could not be assigned to any city within 169.5 miles of the WJHL (Johnson City) transmitter.

Knoxville is 161.5 miles from the WNPT transmitter. (and the WVLT channel 8 transmitter is 162.3 miles from WNPT) That's a pretty minor short-spacing, though it still precluded assignment of channel 8 there. (I haven't done the math but wonder if WGTV Athens, Georgia (transmitter in Atlanta) would have been a more important factor in limiting assignment of channel 8 to Knoxville?) Charleston is not a problem here, as Knoxville is 202.2 miles from the WCHS-TV transmitter.

Well, I messed some of this up... (surprised Trip didn't catch me )

The Knoxville<=>Nashville short-spacing is more serious than implied above. The normally-required separation between Knoxville and the WNPT/WDCN transmitter is not 169.5 miles, but 189.5. Likewise for the Knoxville<=>Athens (Atlanta) separation. The distances in the West Virginia case are shorter because West Virginia is in Zone I, where less separation is required. Tennessee is in Zone II, as is Georgia.

 

[tripinva]

I might have normally, but I'm sick at the moment, so I just answered the obvious question.

- Trip

 

[RyanHoward]

WATE channel 6 in Knoxville was another station on the radio. May be a bit off subject but there were three channel 8's within close proximity to at least one other channel 8. Charleston WV, Knoxville Tn, Nashville Tn. I was always interested in whether there was any interference between any of those stations. Also channel 11 in Huntington WV and channel 11 in Johnson City Tn.

The channel 8 assignment at Knoxville and channel 11 at Charleston were both "drop-in" assignments. Neither one met normal FCC distance separation standards. They were added well after the original table -- channel 8 in Knoxville didn't sign on until 1988 and channel 11 not until 1982. (FWIW channel 11 is assigned to Charleston, not Huntington) (some argue channel 8 is the continuation of Knoxville's channel 26, which signed on in the 1950s. However, they are two separate licenses.)

The drop-in VHF assignments were made (presumably under political pressure) in the 1970s. Other examples include channel 8 in Altoona, Pennsylvania and ... well, I'm spacing on the rest... There were far more drop-ins proposed than ever actually happened. I remember reading an article that proposed assignment of channels 10 and 12 to Clarksville, Tennessee. (they would have been Nashville-market stations)

Under the normal standards, channel 8 could not be assigned to any city within 169.5 miles of the WCHS (Charleston) or WNPT (Nashville, and then known as WDCN) transmitters. Channel 11 could not be assigned to any city within 169.5 miles of the WJHL (Johnson City) transmitter.

Knoxville is 161.5 miles from the WNPT transmitter. (and the WVLT channel 8 transmitter is 162.3 miles from WNPT) That's a pretty minor short-spacing, though it still precluded assignment of channel 8 there. (I haven't done the math but wonder if WGTV Athens, Georgia (transmitter in Atlanta) would have been a more important factor in limiting assignment of channel 8 to Knoxville?) Charleston is not a problem here, as Knoxville is 202.2 miles from the WCHS-TV transmitter.

The situation in Charleston is a lot tighter. Charleston is only 135.3 miles from the WJHL transmitter. (and the WVAH transmitter is 138 miles from WJHL) Again I haven't done the additional math but suspect there's also a significant short-spacing to Pittsburgh.

Both drop-in stations use directional antennas.

In the Charleston case I suppose an argument could be made that mountainous terrain meant there would be less interference than predicted. You might say that for Knoxville (vs. Nashville) as well, although there are some pretty large towns (Cookeville etc.) in the interference area.

Someday I'll get far enough through the Broadcasting Magazines on David Eduardo's site to find the drop-in proceedings. There was a lot of politicking going on there...

WVAH was originally on Channel 23. It moved to 11 in the late 80's.

 

[trusty]

When channel 10 / St. Petersburg went on the air, the FCC required it to place its tower north of Tarpon Springs to avoid interference with ch. 10 in Miami (which also has channels 4, 5, 6 and 7 in the Miami/WPB area ). ABC quickly jumped from ch. 38 to ch. 10 - proving the value of VHF over UHF in 1967. (Of course, the growth of cable has leveled the playing field.*

Does anyone have info on the coverage of ch. 10 vs. ch. 38 during that time? (The ch. 38 tower was more centrally located in the Bay area, but not as strong as a UHF station could be (AFAIK)).



*(plus a little political pressure squeezing out ch. 38 - but that's just a log-forgotten rumor )

 

[mjlarochelle]

Since we're talking about international TV...there are several 4/5 combinations in Canada:

Calgary, AB - CFCN/4 (CTV) and CKAL/5 (Citytv)
Brandon, MB - CKYB/4 (CTV) and CKX/5* (CBC) *CKX went dark in October 2009
Quebec City, QC - CFCM/4 (TVA) and CBVE/5 (CBC)
Saint John, NB - CBAT/4 (CBC) and CBAFT/5* (SRC) *licensed to Fredericton, but transmitting from the same tower as CBAT
Sydney, NS - CJCB/4 (CTV) and CBIT/5 (CBC)

And another couple of 6/7 combinations I thought of:

Timmins, ON - CBLT/6* (CBC) and CICA/7 (TVO) *repeater of CBLT Toronto, formerly local station CFCL prior to 2002
North Bay, ON - CICA/6 (TVO) and CBLFT/7* (SRC) *licensed to nearby Sturgeon Falls, but there's enough overlap to warrant this one